Good Online Site for Creationist Proof

[hardheadjarhead]

Kane,

Here is one of the best sites around for answering your questions concerning athiesm. Note at the top the "common arguments" page.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html#atheisms

As for Creationism...probably a more accurate term than "Creation Science", which is an oxymoron...American Atheist's site addresses it somewhat.

http://www.atheists.org/



Regards,



Steve

 

[SenseiBear]

Actually there is a difference between me and other agnostics. For one, I am very un-bias toward both sides. It seems many other agnostics are actually more atheists. They really deep down believe there is no God. Me, I am very 50/50 in this. Many that claim to be agnostic act much more atheists.

From Dictionary.com:
ag·nos·tic n.
1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism

atheist \A"the*ist\, n.
[Gr. ? without god; 'a priv. + ? god: cf. F. ath['e]iste.]
1. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.

I consider myself an agnostic rather than atheist because to deny the existence of God is as baseless as to claim to know for sure the One True God. However, I do not believe that at present we CAN "know" if there is a God. I have a hard time even comprehending what COULD constitute proof.

However, I am skeptical about the existence of a God as commonly conceived.

Why would you be okay with NOT knowing the truth? Aren't you afraid if that you will go to hell if you did go down the wrong path? Many people, even Christians can't seem to comprehend what hell exactly is.

because I don't really believe we CAN know, as I stated. Even assuming there is a God, (for this discussion, a separate, intellegent being who created the universe intentionally and for a purpose) why would you ever assume that WE are the central purpose??? That seems like egocentrism in the extreme. The universe is huge, we inhabit only a tiny, out of the way corner of it. It is far more likely that we are just a side effect of the real purpose, which, like the God that created it, is completely unfathomable to us. (When you make chocolate milk, the added sugar and the act of stirring create bubbles on the top that persist longer than in most liquids. Making bubbles was not your purpose, you made chocolate milk, the bubbles are just a side effect... Maybe life, and humanity, is something like that)

And while you claim to truly be in the center (not really the definition of agnostic), you sure seem to have picked WHICH God to not be sure of. Many of the Gods people have believed in had no "hell"... On what basis did you pick JHVH and Christ as the only candidates for "real" god? why the Judeo-Christian model over others? Zeus, Kronos, Shiva, Kali, Amun-Ra why not any of them? Or any of the several thousand other gods humanity has at times worshipped?

Actually that site I gave didn't seem too much of “fundamentalist” claims. In the site it seems to me that they were trying to mix science and creationism together, which surprisingly it worked quite well. Some of the philosophy though is a little strange to me still.

You are right, it is not just rabid Fundamentalist ranting, but rather an attempt to define "Creation Science", but is somewhat disingenuous just the same. For example, in its slideshow on the rise of modern man that you referenced, it give an outdated lineage of the rise of man, showing "African Man", "Asian Man", and "European Man" all arising out of "Neanderthal Man". It even says that scientists no longer believe this model, but it does not present the commonly accepted model, rather it spends the next several dozen slides using biblical evidence to "disprove" a model that NO ONE currently accepts...

I guess, the reason I am OK with NOT knowing is because I believe I CANNOT know... and god has granted me the wisdom to accept the things I cannot change... (a little tongue in cheek, but I couldn't resist)

SB

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I looked at the site again, and on one hand I'm impressed with how much work was put in - and how the hosts of the site have actually read up on some psychological and neurological work.

Some aspects of their commentary seem pretty Evangelical or Fundamentalist. It's not always hit-you-over-the-head, but they certainally aren't speaking from traditions I know.

 

[Kane]

because I don't really believe we CAN know, as I stated. Even assuming there is a God, (for this discussion, a separate, intellegent being who created the universe intentionally and for a purpose) why would you ever assume that WE are the central purpose??? That seems like egocentrism in the extreme. The universe is huge, we inhabit only a tiny, out of the way corner of it. It is far more likely that we are just a side effect of the real purpose, which, like the God that created it, is completely unfathomable to us. (When you make chocolate milk, the added sugar and the act of stirring create bubbles on the top that persist longer than in most liquids. Making bubbles was not your purpose, you made chocolate milk, the bubbles are just a side effect... Maybe life, and humanity, is something like that)

And while you claim to truly be in the center (not really the definition of agnostic), you sure seem to have picked WHICH God to not be sure of. Many of the Gods people have believed in had no "hell"... On what basis did you pick JHVH and Christ as the only candidates for "real" god? why the Judeo-Christian model over others? Zeus, Kronos, Shiva, Kali, Amun-Ra why not any of them? Or any of the several thousand other gods humanity has at times worshipped?

SB

If I was fully Christian I would never believe our planet was the center of the universe. Where does it sat in the Bible there is no other life than us? Many people even Christians do not believe we are the only ones in the universe.



The other gods you mentioned that we should worship (Zeus, Kronos, Shiva, Kali, Amun-Ra) has profound poof that they were actually made up by the leaders of those places. Some archeologists have even found texts supporting this. Even practices of Buddhism and Hinduism only really call their religion a way of life more than a religion. Where as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam have no proof supporting it was made up. The only thing one can do is be skeptical about the super-natural "miracles" of the texts.

 

[auxprix]

Atheists, why do you not believe in God? Say a few of the main reasons. I'm just a little curious.

I for one do not believe in a higher power because A: I don't see one in daily life, and B: I would assume that a perfect being would be more logical.

For example, why would an all-powerful being who is perfect in every way care that I worship Him/Her? To me, a perfect being would be beyond stroking their ego with worship. Also, why would he/she punish all those people who didn't worship Him/Her just for being ablivious to His/Her existance?

Also, the bible is not consistant. There are major differences in the ways Christians and Jews interpret the old testiment. Somebody once said that Hell was a pagan concept that christianity picked up. That's one example. Here's another that may come as a surprise to people: The concept of angels is directly borrowed from Zorro-Astrianism. They can actually tie the names and personalities of angels into the Zorro tradition, and believe it was just a way to rope them into Judeo-Christian tradition.

There was a time when I was Christian, and I would just make excuses and try to rationalize all of these subjects. Then, eventually, I grew tired of making excuses and just decided that I was better off accepting that Christianity was invalid. That's how I had felt deep down inside for a long time, but had repressed because of my fear of being godless.

One more thing...I believe that there is more in the world than Science; that there are forces of nature that we do not quite know about or understand. I don't know if that makes me an Agnostic or Athiest. I've never been one for such definitions.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Axly, I try to make my decisions based upon what my intellect tells me, and upon what my moral sense (constructed, through difficulties, over many years) tells me, rather than upon the notion that eventually I will get a cookie for decent behavior.

I'm sure that often, I fail. But it seems to me that any Big Kahuna worth belief would prefer the attempt at decent thought and action to thought and action based on fear.

No doubt, hellfire awaits. But if that is true, I will at least know that your God is a jerk.

 

[bignick]

i believe some of the problems stem from the bible and other religious works...

i'll stick with the bible because that's what i'm most familiar with...

According to most Christian's thought, the Bible is the word of God. It's the teachings we are supposed to live are our lives by. In this sense, if it is the word of God, and God was instrumental in its making it must be rock solid. A historical text...this is not the current view, however, with most people chosing to believe a lot of its information are actually metaphors and analogies...but if we can't take the Bible at face value...and it's left open to interpretation...than there is the very real and likely possibiliy that it will be interpreted wrong and God's original intent won't be followed correctly or at all...

So this leaves us with two very tough choices...

1) take the Bible and it's information at face value (which seems ridiculous in this day and age)

2) try to interpret the Bible and run the risk of getting it wrong...

Personally, I agree with the thought that if we are creations of God that..

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei

 

[SenseiBear]

The other gods you mentioned that we should worship (Zeus, Kronos, Shiva, Kali, Amun-Ra) has profound poof that they were actually made up by the leaders of those places. Some archeologists have even found texts supporting this. Even practices of Buddhism and Hinduism only really call their religion a way of life more than a religion. Where as Christianity, Judaism, or Islam have no proof supporting it was made up. The only thing one can do is be skeptical about the super-natural "miracles" of the texts.

Whooo boy, getting a little silly. I never said you SHOULD worship those others, just giving an example of how many other gods were out there... And all of those gods are far older than christ. their beginnings have been lost in pre-historic times. Please give me a reference for ANY "proof" that they were "made up" (and even if 1 guy just showed up with a story, how does that differ from moses meeting the god of abraham?)

If you research other religions (particularly older ones) you will find that they have parallels to all christian traditions. All religions borrow from one another, they evolve like all other things.

But hey, I was just answering your questions - believe in whatever god you want. I have now spent hours on the sites you referenced, and I see no proof.

SB

 

[rmcrobertson]

Let's hear it for Sir James Frazier, "The Golden Bough," and syncretic religions...

 

[Kane]

Whooo boy, getting a little silly. I never said you SHOULD worship those others, just giving an example of how many other gods were out there... And all of those gods are far older than christ. their beginnings have been lost in pre-historic times. Please give me a reference for ANY "proof" that they were "made up" (and even if 1 guy just showed up with a story, how does that differ from moses meeting the god of abraham?)

If you research other religions (particularly older ones) you will find that they have parallels to all christian traditions. All religions borrow from one another, they evolve like all other things.

But hey, I was just answering your questions - believe in whatever god you want. I have now spent hours on the sites you referenced, and I see no proof.

SB

Gods older than christ? The God of Christianity is the same God as the Jewish God. I was there since man started to wonder about religions. What religion is older than their God?

 

[Mark Weiser]

According to Orthodox Judaism. Chirstianity and Jesus are about as welcome as a slice of ham at the dinner table.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Gods older than christ? The God of Christianity is the same God as the Jewish God. I was there since man started to wonder about religions. What religion is older than their God?

Christianity was founded in the first century. Judaism's texts date back to the ninth century at the earliest. Ancient Greek religions and early Judaism are parallel religions. Richard Elliott Friedman's Who Wrote The Bible? is an excellent book discussing the early texts of the Torah (Old Testament to you, Kane). It is reader-friendly and provocative.

As to who is older, Jehovah or Zeus...both stopped celebrating their birthday's sometime back. Jehovah, some say, has had several face lifts and a tummy tuck. Zeus went through a terrible mid-life crisis some time back and ended up having several affairs with mortals. He's retired now, and was recently seen driving a convertable with a trophy blonde at his side...and gossip magazines state it was NOT Hera. Io, perhaps?


Regards,


Steve

 

[TonyM.]

Interesting thread. Reminds me of the episode of cheers where Woody and Kelly are argueing about their Babtist roots and Woody says they will have talk over the barbed wire fence in Heaven because they come from different branches of the Church.
I think people should not take dictionary definitions as Gospel. Language is not the same today.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Zeus went through a terrible mid-life crisis some time back and ended up having several affairs with mortals. He's retired now, and was recently seen driving a convertable with a trophy blonde at his side...and gossip magazines state it was NOT Hera. Io, perhaps?

I thought I saw a white bull in a Ferrari the other day.

Jehovah's too busy to get out these days; he spends most of his time deciding which side to help in football and basketball games.

 

[bignick]

not too mention giving all those people their million dollars....

 

[SenseiBear]

Gods older than christ? The God of Christianity is the same God as the Jewish God. I was there since man started to wonder about religions. What religion is older than their God?

yup - long before abraham started wandering around muttering about the ONE god, there were all ready LOTS of Gods already worshiped by all sorts of people, all over the world.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

I thought I saw a white bull in a Ferrari the other day.

Jehovah's too busy to get out these days; he spends most of his time deciding which side to help in football and basketball games.

I saw him tricked out as a swan the other day and driving around with that really hot chick Leda. You heard what he did with Semele, right? Dude gave meaning to the term "golden shower".


Regards,


Steve

 

[Ronald R. Harbers]

I'm straddling the fence here. I do have a few of problems with religion in the Western sense. Maybe someone can clarify:

First problem: Circumcision, Why the male organ? Sounds unatural.

Second Problem: Communion, Why eat the flesh and drink the blood of your God? Even ritualistically? Sounds like cannibalism.

Third problem: Why do all beliefs in all ages try to make a man a god?

:idunno:

 

[CanuckMA]

I'm straddling the fence here. I do have a few of problems with religion in the Western sense. Maybe someone can clarify:

First problem: Circumcision, Why the male organ? Sounds unatural.

Second Problem: Communion, Why eat the flesh and drink the blood of your God? Even ritualistically? Sounds like cannibalism.

Third problem: Why do all beliefs in all ages try to make a man a god?

:idunno:

The first one is easy, because G-d commands us to.

The other 2 are strictly Xtian concepts.

 

[CanuckMA]

Christianity was founded in the first century. Judaism's texts date back to the ninth century at the earliest.

And of the claims that Xtianity is based on Judaism, how can a religion be bsed on texts that will not appear for another 800 years?