GM Robert Trias

[IMAA]

I want to do some research on the GM to our system.

GM Robert Trias.

I was wondering if anyone can confirm his authenticity?

Also has anyone heard of a gentlemen in the Muncie Ind area named Dave Foreman?

Im not trying to make any false statemets or allegations I am just doing some research andtrying to find some authenticity behind our Karate system wich is derived from Korea and has a more Japanese influence. Our system is called AmericanTaekwondo
but yet has a japanese influence. Does anyone else have or practice a system like this?

Our Kata mainly consist of the Pin-on forms, naihanchi, and bassai sho is our last taught kata at most time shodan level.

Any info is welcome

Thanks

 

[RyuShiKan]

You may want to check Bruce Haines book called “Karate, History and Traditions”………or something along those lines.

 

[yilisifu]

I knew Mr. Trias back in the old days. Without going into a lot of detail, at least at this time, I will say that his stories regarding how he learned what he termed "shuri-ryu" karate are false.

However, he was a great leader and many authentic karate instructors flocked to the USKA which he originated.

There was, of course, a takeonwo contingent and I think some of them wanted to be more "like the Okinawans or Japanese" as it were - to be better accepted as part of the (USKA) group, and some of them adopted Okinawan kata and even did their standard taekwondo forms with an Okinawan flavor.

Hope this helps.

 

[SRyuFighter]

Sounds fishy to me. But I don't really know.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by yilisifu
I knew Mr. Trias back in the old days. Without going into a lot of detail, at least at this time, I will say that his stories regarding how he learned what he termed "shuri-ryu" karate are false.

However, he was a great leader and many authentic karate instructors flocked to the USKA which he originated.

There was, of course, a takeonwo contingent and I think some of them wanted to be more "like the Okinawans or Japanese" as it were - to be better accepted as part of the (USKA) group, and some of them adopted Okinawan kata and even did their standard taekwondo forms with an Okinawan flavor.

Hope this helps.

Yilisifu,
According to Bruce Haines' book, Trias studied with Tong Gee Hsiang in Hsing I Chuan and was also a student of Choki Motobu. What do you know that we don't or Should?

Respectully,

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
According to Bruce Haines' book, Trias studied with Tong Gee Hsiang in Hsing I Chuan and was also a student of Choki Motobu. What do you know that we don't or Should?
Respectully,

As for studying with Motobu Choki……it’s BS.
Motobu died in 1944.
Trias’ training dates and the year of Motobu’s death don’t match up.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
As for studying with Motobu Choki……it’s BS.
Motobu died in 1944.
Trias’ training dates and the year of Motobu’s death don’t match up.

RyuShiKan,
What were his training dates?

 

[arnisador]

His widow Roberta Trias posts periodically on rec.martial-arts.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
RyuShiKan,
What were his training dates?

Several years back I saw a website that listed Trias’ training dates and I also had a copy of Haines’ updated version of “Karate, History and Traditions” the Motobu training didn’t fit into the dates on the website I saw.
I emailed the website and asked for clarification. I believe his daughter was the one that replied and said Haines’ book was inaccurate on that account.
She couldn’t explain why it was written in Haines’ book either.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Several years back I saw a website that listed Trias’ training dates and I also had a copy of Haines’ updated version of “Karate, History and Traditions” the Motobu training didn’t fit into the dates on the website I saw.
I emailed the website and asked for clarification. I believe his daughter was the one that replied and said Haines’ book was inaccurate on that account.
She couldn’t explain why it was written in Haines’ book either.

You're absolutely right,
I just checked out their web site, and it does not say that he trained with Motobu. It does say though, that this Hsiang fellow and Motobu collaborated and created Shuri-Ryu. Here is the site:
www.shuri-ryu.com/trias.htm

 

[IMAA]

Okay, researching and finding any hidden truths or delimas surrounding GM Robert Trias is my agenda, his legitimicies, his claims, his authenticity. I am not by any means trying to downgrade this gentlemen who is not alive to defend himself. And thier is an honor to him since he is at the head of the family tree of my Martial Arts lineage in what has been called American Karate or American TaeKwonDo since the early to mid 80's that I started my Martial Arts training.

I have somewhat a thick book I will not speak of its name for honor sake. However I have heard that Mr. Trias's claims that he makes are somewhat bogus, and somewhat made up. I dont know as to which orwhat to be clear. I just find he makes himself out to be this idol in martial arts society and yet he's not mentioned or talked about as much as some others ie. EdParker, , Jhoon Rhee, etc... of his same time period.

I know he was the founder of the USKA (united states karate assoc.) Phoenix Arizona, and he 'states' he opened the first karate school in the US in 1946, 1st tournament rules in 1946, 1st Karate Assoc, 1948 that many great martial artist belonged too, such as Bill Wallace, George Dillman, He held the first tournament in 1955, 1st, textbook in 1958, 1st training film 1959, 1st world tournament in 1963, and 1st poffesional tournament 1968. Anyone have any opinions or differences on these claims?

He trained with Master of Hsing Yi and shuri Toderyu, Tong Gee Hsing in Tulagi British Solomon Islands 1942. IN the latter part of WW2 it was seeking the conversion of the solomon islands. It was from master hsing yi that he recieved his first instructors degree. Later in the war Mr. Trias met Hoy Yuan Ping master of Kempo tode and jujitsu, who became his second teacher. He claims he was the first caucasion to learn chinese system of hsing yi.

He also claimed to be the Highest ranking caucasion in the world, and author of the best seller, "the hand is my sword".

He goes on and says. Karate was first introduced tothe USA by Master Trias in 1945. He opened the first dojo in the nation in 1946 in phoenix Az.

It goes on to say " it should be made perfectly clear that Master Trias, an American brought Karate to this country before any Japanese, or any other Orientals or caucasions". HMM! I have to raise some suspicion to that...
Now unbetold the story of the founding father of Karate in the city which i reside in, is Dave Forman their is a dave forman mentioned in this book however some beleive it is someone else. Not the guy that has believed to bring Karate here. And Others believe it was him. I have never met Master Forman however the stories I was told are to be held in high respect for the man. Some of his great students are Glenn Kenney, Ralph White, a Mr. Sparks.

The only thing that makes me wonder is Forman brought forth Karate in this town and yet he has had it titled American Taekwondo with forms of both korean and japanese structure. Some say he never made it passed sho dan level which is why in our system bassai sho is the highest kata. Thru the years since the 80's when I started some Korean forms like Chonji has been excluded from the system. I have also a background in Korean ChungDoKwan TKD and I studied a poomse called DoSan and one called won hyo. ANd in the system here the American TKD /Karate they use a kata called Toesan wich is the exact same form as wonhyo in the korean format, So it is confusing and its some of the reasoning behind why Im digging into this so deep. Im just trying to find something that makes since. My Teacher says since he has never heard or seen this WonHyo his only speculation is possibly since Dave Forman was in Korea and learnt from a Master Ik Lee that he possibly gotten things twisted such as names and such since it was during the war. I dont have any info on Mr. Forman other than that....

So these are alot of my reasonigs behind this long, long, and I apologize the length of this message.

Thanks,
Now let the masses speak.. I know somebody has something to say....wheather its to agree or disagree, this is why I brought forth this topic. Its not to disgrace, but to ponder and explore..

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by kenmpoka
It does say though, that this Hsiang fellow and Motobu collaborated and created Shuri-Ryu.

That is also pretty questionable as well.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by IMAA
……. It goes on to say " it should be made perfectly clear that Master Trias, an American brought Karate to this country before any Japanese, or any other Orientals or caucasions". HMM! I have to raise some suspicion to that...

Me too. Since Yabu Kentsu was in California in the 1920’s, Motobu Choki was denied entry into Hawaii (not yet part of the US) in the 1930’s.
However, Chojun Miyagi and several others already had students there during that same time.
I think there may have been others teaching in the US but didn’t open the first public commercial school.
Trias is credited for opening the first school by a non-Asian. That I do believe.

 

[yilisifu]

Yes, Trias did open the first karate school in the U.S. His story is that Tung Gee Hsing, a Hsing-I master, studied shuri-ryu karate in Okinawa under Motobu and then left for the Solomon Islands to work as a Christian missionary.
Trias met him there in, I believe, 1942.

I also have a copy of the ORIGINAL "Hand Is My Sword" book by Trias which is 10 kliks below horrible and he once tried to get it from me.......the newer, revised version is much different.

Anyway, as for his story......

In 1944 in the Solomon Islands, there was a skirmish going on known as the Battle of Guadalcanal and we were getting our butts kicked at first (Prior to 1944 we were nowhere near the Solomons). Trias was a seaman on a warship and I doubt that the commander would have stopped the ship in "the slot" (as it was known, because the Japanese were sinking lots of ships in it) to let an enlisted man take a longboat ashore......

But IF he did manage to commandeer a longboat and get ashore, he'd have 25,000 Japanese soldiers to contend with (how did he know Tung was there in the first place?) who would kill Tung just as quickly as they'd kill him, since Japan was also at war with China.

WHY would Tung, if he existed, teach a round-eye during the middle of one of the bloodiest battles in history? Why would Motobu teach Tung his shuri-ryu (shuri-te was never known as a "ryu" anyway) and why would Tung, a Chinese, even WANT to learn Okinawan karate in the first place?
I didn't know there were ANY Chinese Christian missionaries at that time - I have NEVER heard of any of them going to the Solomon Islands (Christianity was still being introduced to the Chinese by western missionaries).

Trias would have had to get that longboat ashore MANY, MANY times to keep training and become an "instructor" under this Tung fellow. And frankly, the battle didn't last that long anyway.

A photo (which I have seen myself) of Tung which supposedly shows him on the islands is in serious doubt since, in the background, one can (with the aid of a magnifying glass) read a small sign which says "Chinatown" and then something else on it.
Don't think the Solomons even today have a Chinatown......

However, it should be remembered that his USKA became the largest karate organization in the nation. It was comprised mostly of Okinawan and Japanese stylists.

 

[Mike Clarke]

On one of my trips to Okinawa my sensei gave me book to take home [and bury I think?]. Titled; Karatedo "The Supreme Way."
and sub-titled, the ultimate in Okinawan Karate.
It had been presented to him by R.T. in July 1983 along with a certificate of appreceation from the A.A.U. and one [and get this] from the United States of America [certificate of achievement award]. I've always thought the certificates were condescending, and as for the book, I have to say, it's bloody awful!!!!

Not just the production of it, but the contents too. It is as far as I've been able to read [but I can only take small doses of this kind of stuff], a very self serving tome, with little [in my opinion] in the way of good solid information.

It's littered with mistakes in peoples names and the names of styles etc, and I suspect if I knew more about the American karate sceen, I'd notice even more errors?

One should not speak ill of the dead [or those living] I suppose?
But you know, in Japan they have a saying about a nail that stands up [it's got to be knocked back down].

Roberta by the way is his daughter not his wife, her name was[is?] Jane.

As far a linage goes I think it's always best to focus on your teacher and your own training, and leave the rest to history. In my opinion things get very messy once you start looking too far back. There arn't many [in karate anyway] who can cast a straight shadow as they say.

Mike.

 

[IMAA]

As far a linage goes I think it's always best to focus on your teacher and your own training, and leave the rest to history. In my opinion things get very messy once you start looking too far back. There arn't many [in karate anyway] who can cast a straight shadow as they say.

Very good advice Mike I must say!!!!!


Well the book that I have is titled the " pinnacle of karate" its written by Mr. Trias... does anyone know or have any ideas of this particular book? It was passed down to me from my teacher.

 

[yilisifu]

"The Pinnacle of Karate" was, I believe, Mr. Trias's final book (after the revised version of "The Hand Is My Sword").

I recall hearing of a form called Won Hyo - a Taekwondo form, but I can't recall where it was that I witnessed it..

It's true that tearing Mr. Trais's background apart won't make you a better martial artist. Like I said, I knew Mr. Trias back in the late 60's and on through the 70's...his USKA did much for the expansion and development of karate in this country and we should be thankful to him for that. He had many shortcomings, as do we all, so let us look to what he gave us rather than what skeletons might still be found in his closet.:asian:

 

[IMAA]

It's true that tearing Mr. Trais's background apart won't make you a better martial artist.

USKA did much for the expansion and development of karate in this country and we should be thankful to him for that.

I agree totally..... these things can be rather frustrating...I tend not to get caught up on the less finer things of life....however I just called this out as a topic and yet to seewhat any body else's reatction was....and 2 to see if what I was told was the truth ornot....and to be honest it really doesnt matter what he has or hasntdone....like you said he has accomplished alot of feats for Karate in America today....

Thanks

 

[RyuShiKan]

True tearing Trias’ martial resume apart won’t make you a better practitioner.
However, people that out right lie about things in the Martial Arts disrespect us all.

People that claim bloated ranks like several 10th dans or Soke licenses make not only a spectacle of themselves but unfortunately of those that train seriously too.

I really take a disliking to martial artists that try to deceive since it goes against the very ethics of training in budo.

 

[yilisifu]

Absolutely.