Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

[Juany118]

The Isshinryu punch looks very much like the punch shown in the photo of the old-time bare-knuckle boxer. Fist is vertical, thumb is on top, not along the side. We strike with the top two knuckles. Hand, wrist, and arm are in alignment. I can hit quite hard without conditioning my hands and without hurting my knuckles, wrist, etc. The pressing down on the thumb moves the bones of the hand into correct alignment. IMHO.

Oh it can absolutely hit hard. I do the conditioning for the fist (and palm since I prefer palm strikes) more to minimize injury to myself. I have seen more than a few of my co-workers get hurt even punching correctly but say the "bad guy" zigs instead of zags and a punch that was headed to the cheek ends up connecting with the forehead or did horizontal fist punches (especially round punches) and the wrist alignment is a tad off and they end up getting a sprain/strain. If not for having seen hands swollen two sizes bigger or wrists in braces I may not be doing the conditioning, but on the downhill side towards retirement I am very much about mitigating the risk of injury. I also make sure I stretch everyday before work (especially when it's cold out) with the same idea in mind.

Nothing is perfect though there is still the risk of injury, it's just about mitigating said risk.

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[JowGaWolf]

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Personally I could go either way; with or without gloves it dosnt matter much to me how I spare. But I would rather lean towards saftey.

So you are saying that you punch with about the same power with the gloves on as you do without the glove one? correct?

 

[Juany118]

I'll say "palm edge" instead. It has less area and more meat. You can hit as hard as you can without worrying about your own hand bone breaking.

When I was young, at the end of one group fight, one of my friends found out that he had a tooth in his knuckle.

Yeah, I condition to punch but I am a much bigger fan of a side palm.

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[Ironbear24]

If I trained without gloves at my boxing gym my face would look like hamburger meat. I can't really believe anyone is training bare knuckle with any intensity and intent to make contact on a regular basis (in a partnered sparring context).

The face is off limits.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The reason wc guys say their way is better is because of tradition

I took a deeper look at the Wing Chun punch and their method of punching prevents a certain type of arm lock because the elbows are down. In addition it makes throwing a rising elbow that much faster. I'm wondering if this is the reason as things in close quarters happen faster. Also the type of punching that they are doing is a much shorter punch then when using a horizontal fist. These things seem more practical than some of the many excuses I've heard. But then again that's just me looking at the punch from the outside. I don't practice Wing Chun so I can be wrong about the why they use a vertical fist? but what I said about the punch are true.

They point to classical boxing as confirmation for confirmation but the truth is classical boxing differed widely in approach, either way it's an antiquated punching method.

Some times I wonder if old bare knuckle photos are like most fight related photos; It's just a pose and not necessarily a technique that shows how things were done. Could it bet that it's just a pose to make the image look more fantastic? No different when boxers today pose for the camera. If grappling was allowed then having that hand so far back doesn't help the grappling game. But if I was going to pose for a picture, back then, I would probably pose the same way because those poses allow me to flex my muscles for the better photo. I wonder if in some of the pictures where they are curling the fist towards their body, if they aren't actually flexing their muscle like a bicep curl. Try the same pose with the vertical fist and then watch your what happens to your bicep as you turn your hand upward, now flex.
As for the arm being to the side close to the body, you can do the same thing

If anyone does a google image search fore "old bare knuckle photos" then what I say starts to at least looks like it makes sense. I could still be wrong as I'm not a historian on bare knuckle fighting. We do fighting poses in front of cameras today that aren't accurate so I don't see why someone back then wouldn't do the same. I think things may have been different if they were taking photos for instructional purposes.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think it is a global "either/or" choice.

For my purposes I would see bare handed as the way because I train for self defense, where I won't be wearing gloves, so I do conditioning and train to punch hard targets in a specific way. However if I was competing I would likely prefer gloves because not worrying as much about conditioning would mean more time for all the other training and not being as concerned about how I am punching hard targets mechanically.

But if you were wearing gloves in self defence you could knock guys out considerably more reliably. So given the choice why would you not take that advantage?

I mean the UFC stats were not conditioned hands vs unconditioned hands. It wasn't punching style vs punching style. Itwas gloves vs no gloves.

There seems no difference in the style of punching between modern bare knuckle and modern glove fighting.

Seems pretty cut and dried.

Otherwise people break their hands while wearing gloves. Why do you think that given that risk people either advocate some sort of incorrect hand breaking punching style. Or dont condition their hands?

 

[drop bear]

The largely accepted reason for the classical boxing stance was the prequeesnbury rules which allowed grappling, throws, and low kicks. After the adoption of standardized rules that discouraged grappling and clinching boxing focus shifted to punching and a more evolved punching game developed. The newer more evasive style of punching transitioned to a more evasive skillset that favored footwork and headmovement which was a sharp contrast to the older "toe the line" style where evasion and footwork was frowned upon. Gloves were added to get the upperclass involved and reduce the risk of cuts to the face, they were initially only used in training but later became more widespread.

Gloves vs bk? IMO it's a dumb comparison. Gloves are for training and competition. They reduce the risk of cuts and with wraps enable you to work punches with greater intensity for a prolonged time this improving your punching technique and endurance. They're a training tool that's it.

If I trained without gloves at my boxing gym my face would look like hamburger meat. I can't really believe anyone is training bare knuckle with any intensity and intent to make contact on a regular basis (in a partnered sparring context).

We have done it with a kudo hat on. But that is a different dynamic again. I have met some guys who competed bare knuckle. I have chris haseman as a facebook friend. I should ask if there is a difference.

 

[drop bear]

Some times I wonder if old bare knuckle photos are like most fight related photos; It's just a pose and not necessarily a technique that shows how things were done. Could it bet that it's just a pose to make the image look more fantastic?

In old style photos. You had to hold that position for a minute or so.
That is why everybody is scowling. It is just hard to smile for a minute.

 

[Juany118]

But if you were wearing gloves in self defence you could knock guys out considerably more reliably. So given the choice why would you not take that advantage?

I mean the UFC stats were not conditioned hands vs unconditioned hands. It wasn't punching style vs punching style. Itwas gloves vs no gloves.

There seems no difference in the style of punching between modern bare knuckle and modern glove fighting.

Seems pretty cut and dried.

Otherwise people break their hands while wearing gloves. Why do you think that given that risk people either advocate some sort of incorrect hand breaking punching style. Or dont condition their hands?

You are missing the point I am trying to make.

Wearing gloves simply isn't practical when you are out doing everyday tasks. So regardless of whether or not they allow me to repeatedly pummel someone in the head it is largely irrelevant.

As such I train to address that reality. I use palm strikes whenever possible and condition my hands in general to reduce the chance of injury. Whether gloves work better in competition isn't relevant to me because 90% of the time (accounting for sparring and tournaments) I am not going to be wearing protective gloves.

 

[oaktree]

I prefer palm like juany, as I have more variety, longer distance with my finger tips, and if one does iron palm a harder impact.

 

[drop bear]

You are missing the point I am trying to make.

Wearing gloves simply isn't practical when you are out doing everyday tasks. So regardless of whether or not they allow me to repeatedly pummel someone in the head it is largely irrelevant.

As such I train to address that reality. I use palm strikes whenever possible and condition my hands in general to reduce the chance of injury. Whether gloves work better in competition isn't relevant to me because 90% of the time (accounting for sparring and tournaments) I am not going to be wearing protective gloves.

So all that bit you posted about bare knuckle fighting isn't relevant. Because it is competition.

Or is it only relevant when it suits you?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Definitely fists for me, as I like to be able to grab my opponent when they attack me (something you can't really do with boxing gloves on).

 

[JowGaWolf]

Otherwise people break their hands while wearing gloves.

Do boxers break their hand more often than MMA fighters?

 

[JowGaWolf]

In old style photos. You had to hold that position for a minute or so.
That is why everybody is scowling. It is just hard to smile for a minute.

Good point to bring this video in on the discussion since it relates to photography back then. It helps to put things into context of why photos looked a certain way.

 

[drop bear]

Do boxers break their hand more often than MMA fighters?

Not sure. A lot of factors at play there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I took a deeper look at the Wing Chun punch and their method of punching prevents a certain type of arm lock because the elbows are down. In addition it makes throwing a rising elbow that much faster.

The

- vertical fist can be followed by an upward elbow faster.
- horizontal fist can be followed by a horizontal elbow, or downward elbow faster.

Because the twisting, the horizontal fist can generate at least 10% more power than the vertical fist. That's the advantage.

 

[Juany118]

So all that bit you posted about bare knuckle fighting isn't relevant. Because it is competition.

Or is it only relevant when it suits you?

No, the point is that such history helps to inform my training because my purpose is bareknuckled. Are you being obtuse on purpose it seems pretty obvious?

 

[Ironbear24]

No, the point is that such history helps to inform my training because my purpose is bareknuckled. Are you being obtuse on purpose it seems pretty obvious?

It's drop bear. When isn't he obtuse?

 

[drop bear]

No, the point is that such history helps to inform my training because my purpose is bareknuckled. Are you being obtuse on purpose it seems pretty obvious?

And so instead of finding an expert on the subject you went for the history books?

Isn't that kind of the equivalent of training via you tube?

 

[drop bear]

It's drop bear. When isn't he obtuse?

When people have the capacity to understand my posts.