To skip ahead, yes, I believe the planet has experienced global warming AND global cooling, in cycles throughout history, and that we may now be entering a cooling period, much like the 1970's, the mid 1940's and the period of the revolutionary war. I just do not believe that mankind has the ability to impact the climate in any meaningful way.
Global Warming Explained
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
Ok. Quote some. Show some studies.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Why will it change your mind? Funny thing about political issues is once you decide your side is correct you could be smacked in the face withthe truth and will never change you mind. You want to read studies google it 100s of studies will show up. Read them and ignore them if you want. In the mean time amirillo texas just got record snow today but dont worry all this global warming will melt it away.
OP
OP
I have doubt that there is anything man can do to return the climate to what it was. And I am loathe to destroy our already-precarious economy to try stuff. Worse would be if we could actually affect the climate, but made things worse. But given our ability to terraform (at this point, nil).
And as I've said, this cost is not to be pressed down evenly upon the brow of mankind, but forced on the 'wealthy' and 'developed' countries, regardless of which are the major polluters. Nations like China get the buy, they don't have to cut emissions or pay anything; which puts them in a commanding position vis-a-vis the American Decline.
All of this to reverse what is predicted variously as a 1 to 2 degree rise in temperature over the next 100 years and oceans levels raising up by something less than a foot. Yes, it won't be good, especially for those who live in coastal plains and areas where it is already very hot. On the other hand, 100 years is a lot of time to move or take other precautions.
So my conservative position is this; I don't want to spend money on radical changes that a) the West has to bear, putting us at a disadvantage economically and b) might not do a bloody thing anyway.
That's a conservative point of view. I don't deny Global Warming, nor do I believe that humans did not have any agency in it (I just have some doubt that AGW has been proven); but more importantly than that, I don't want to pay for 'fixes' that I have no confidence will 'fix' anything, and hurt us in the meantime.
OP
OP
If I chase you around until you admit you are in favor of euthanasia for pets which have contracted incurable diseases, I can then announce you are an admitted puppy-killer. I didn't say I want to deposit feces in anyone's food bowl; that's your emotional buzzsaw, not mine. I just don't feel like playing that semantic game with you. I don't want to pay for 'fixing' the planet. If you choose to characterize that as crapping in your kitchen pantry, so be it. Your words, not mine.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I have been in multiple Global Warming posts/threads/discussions/arguments/silliness both on and off MT…. andfrankly I was not going to comment here because it is pretty much useless sinceboth sides are as partisan as US politicians and far beyond listening to logic and reason.... but want to know what I think….look it up is it here.
The main problem here seems to be who we want to point the finger at and whether or not we want to take responsibility or not…. It is so much easier to blame someone or something else because if you take responsibility then if things go to hell in a hand basket you have no one but yourself to blame and lord knows we don’t want that. I know it all seems like a worthwhile thing to do… but frankly, IMO, it is a complete waste of time. Bottom-line…is the planet getting warmer and if you answer anything but yes you are in denial. Ice is melting, climates are changing, water levels are rising, and weather patterns are changing to. Is any of this long term or is it short term and before you answer that understand we are may be talking Geological time which means equating that to human time it ALL becomes long term.
Now as to who or what is to blame? Frankly I don’t care. The actual thing we need to do is figure out if we can do anything about it because if we can we best get busy before it is too late, if it is not to late already. If we can’t then we best get ready for an uncertain future…and invest in property on higher ground because eventually you will have ocean front homes in Pennsylvania, central California and the southern coasts of Alabama and Georgia. Of course I am only talking about the USA…. Same thing for any low lying coastal area all over the world…it will be underwater and many major cities could end up underwater.
There are multiple reasons for the climate to change on this planet; Earth orbit changing (and it does and has by the way) Earth Axial shift (also happens), gallons of fresh water being introduced into the salt water systems (this is very bad by the way – see melting ice), increased levels of Carbon dioxide being released into the atmosphere (see industrial and car emissions… and if you blame cows I will waste no more time talking to you), very large volcanic eruptions (think Krakatau or Yellowstone, heck Mt Saint Helens had an effect), decrease in the pH and increase in acidity in the oceans (Which is happening). There are tons of reasons as to why climate changes. Now if I remember correctly and if you can take into account geological history, we should be in a cooling phase, not a warming phase. But even that is uncertain because it is possible that the beginning of a cooling phase starts with warming…. Not sure I buy that one but I did once read a rather compelling argument for that possibility.
Global warming does not mean that the entire planet is going to get warming, so stop pointing to places that are getting cooler as proof there is no global warming... all that shows is that you do not understand what global warming is. It means that many places are getting warmer and some are actually going to get colder. Weather patterns change, Oceanic conveyor belt system shuts down and places get no warm currents or warm air masses so….they get colder. Oh and let’s not forget the Younger Dryas…. Now that would be a change.. a devistaing climate change…and rather fast to…even in human time
So gentleman please, continues arguing…it is a complete waste of time….accomplishes nothing… and the earth gets warmer…. See you on the beach on the Southern coast of Georgia
The main problem here seems to be who we want to point the finger at and whether or not we want to take responsibility or not…. It is so much easier to blame someone or something else because if you take responsibility then if things go to hell in a hand basket you have no one but yourself to blame and lord knows we don’t want that. I know it all seems like a worthwhile thing to do… but frankly, IMO, it is a complete waste of time. Bottom-line…is the planet getting warmer and if you answer anything but yes you are in denial. Ice is melting, climates are changing, water levels are rising, and weather patterns are changing to. Is any of this long term or is it short term and before you answer that understand we are may be talking Geological time which means equating that to human time it ALL becomes long term.
Now as to who or what is to blame? Frankly I don’t care. The actual thing we need to do is figure out if we can do anything about it because if we can we best get busy before it is too late, if it is not to late already. If we can’t then we best get ready for an uncertain future…and invest in property on higher ground because eventually you will have ocean front homes in Pennsylvania, central California and the southern coasts of Alabama and Georgia. Of course I am only talking about the USA…. Same thing for any low lying coastal area all over the world…it will be underwater and many major cities could end up underwater.
There are multiple reasons for the climate to change on this planet; Earth orbit changing (and it does and has by the way) Earth Axial shift (also happens), gallons of fresh water being introduced into the salt water systems (this is very bad by the way – see melting ice), increased levels of Carbon dioxide being released into the atmosphere (see industrial and car emissions… and if you blame cows I will waste no more time talking to you), very large volcanic eruptions (think Krakatau or Yellowstone, heck Mt Saint Helens had an effect), decrease in the pH and increase in acidity in the oceans (Which is happening). There are tons of reasons as to why climate changes. Now if I remember correctly and if you can take into account geological history, we should be in a cooling phase, not a warming phase. But even that is uncertain because it is possible that the beginning of a cooling phase starts with warming…. Not sure I buy that one but I did once read a rather compelling argument for that possibility.
Global warming does not mean that the entire planet is going to get warming, so stop pointing to places that are getting cooler as proof there is no global warming... all that shows is that you do not understand what global warming is. It means that many places are getting warmer and some are actually going to get colder. Weather patterns change, Oceanic conveyor belt system shuts down and places get no warm currents or warm air masses so….they get colder. Oh and let’s not forget the Younger Dryas…. Now that would be a change.. a devistaing climate change…and rather fast to…even in human time
So gentleman please, continues arguing…it is a complete waste of time….accomplishes nothing… and the earth gets warmer…. See you on the beach on the Southern coast of Georgia
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Anyone else imagine Karl Childers from Sling Blade narrating the OP? No? Hm...
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
Politics and money can't seem not to infect everything.
I pay taxes and have little or no control where or how that money is spent. Currently it seems allot of it is spent in or as a result of politics, and on very little on what really matters.
I pay taxes and have little or no control where or how that money is spent. Currently it seems allot of it is spent in or as a result of politics, and on very little on what really matters.
Maybe you should leave this argument to the big boys then. Mattocks and billcihak, when asked, will actually post their sources when asked. Billcihak and I have disagreed on multiple points of multiple topic. But there is a mutual respect that allows us to debate and yes, on occasion, he has changed my mind on things. You are of the opinion, judging from your words, that your opponents will never change theory mind no matter what information the encounter. So that begs the question: why are you posting in a debate forum? If you aren't actually trying to change people's minds, then what is your intent? Do you just like being contentious for the sake of contention? Do you just put your views out there so you can cackle, crow, and say , " I told you so" should it turn out you happen to be right? Or are you just that impressed by your own typing?I really hope this isn't the case. I am rather hoping you are a valued debate partner.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Naa I just find internet tough guys like yourself are not worth my time. Had the person I was actually chatting with asked me for the information I would have gladly responded or had you provided a counter point to my post I would have gladly engaged you in the debate. However when a internet tough guy pops in and makes a 6 word post saying prove it, well lets just say this is not my first rodeo I know when someone wants to actually debate and when someone just wants a fight and well Everyone knows what comes from fighting over the internet.
Gentlemen, I wonder if perhaps you aren't getting off on the wrong foot with each other here? It doesn't take much to become irritated with each other in a medium such as this, where we can't read expression or tone very easily. Give each other another chance and see where it leads you.
Actually I was genuinely asking for the information. I have read both sides, but if you have something new I would like to see it. I mean you could have brought up Dr. Roy Spencer of NASA who talks about how a lot of the earth's heat is being lost into space, or a number of articles from skepticalscience.com, etc. etc. And you didn't.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Your right I could have provided you links.
Heres a site my pal Bill sent me http://climatechangefacts.info/#ViewsBySkeptics
Or This is one I check out at times
http://www.climatescienceinternational.org/
I have no problems against cleaning upthe earth if it makes sense. My issue is the methods the GreenPolice want us to do. Its dishonest for people likeAl Gore to fly around in private jets and tell me I need to ride abike to work. Its dishonest to say America needs to reduce itsfactory emissions yet we dont want mexico, india, China to do itbecause they are emerging nations. Its false science to say we canmeasure the co2 output of a steel mill in Pittsburgh and tax them onit and when they reach the limit the Govt sets force them to buycredits from other countries so the mill can stay open. Its dishonestto jack up food prices because farmers are selling all the corn tomake gas. A Gas that cost more and kills engines and has no realimpact on the environment. I just dont agree with throwing money at aproblem when we dont even know if it can be fixed. It would be likeyour car not starting and instead of finding out exactly whats wrongand fixing it you just start buy new parts changing them until itstarts.
You want to fix the problem fine find concreteundeniable proof that if we do XYZ then things will get better. Untilthen Im not in the mood to waist my money and handicap the few jobproducers we have left in this country over a theory.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I could use some global warming right now its freezing outside
In posting the following article I accept the attacks...I know, I know, this has absolutely nothing to do with anything to do with why people should question the validity of global warming hysteria...but come on, the earliest snow since the civil war...keep in mind the part about snow and the civil war and the word "early"...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054719/North-east-braces-October-snow-inches-predicted-areas.html
One question that comes to mind...is Al Gore anywhere in the area. Usually when he is giving a global warming hysteria, I mean, global warming speech there is unexpected and record setting cold spells, or so it seems.
Next, this early snow has happened three times since 1869...hmmmm....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054719/North-east-braces-October-snow-inches-predicted-areas.html
One question that comes to mind...is Al Gore anywhere in the area. Usually when he is giving a global warming hysteria, I mean, global warming speech there is unexpected and record setting cold spells, or so it seems.
Next, this early snow has happened three times since 1869...hmmmm....
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
And dangnabit, I will be damned if I use one square of toilet paper to wipe my nether regions, specifically me ****.
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
The politics and hypocrisy on both sides will keep this argument alive for decades.
All a part of my devious master plan!
Interestingly, for all that people tout corn ethanol, its production actually has a NEGATIVE impact on the environment. http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/4032I did a research project on the topic about 5years ago during my first go-round at college. This article highlightsghts some of the more problematic issues with corn ethanol. Personally, I wish they would bring back the gas turbine car. People in America didn't cotton to it because they were too used to standard engines, but those things were reliable, massively fuel efficient, and simple. I actually AM an environmentally minded person, and used to focus a lot of effort towards that front. I got the recycling program expanded at my old college because when I presented it to the board I touched on the beneficial environmental impacts, but FOCUSED on showing, in real numbers, how the added revenue from the sale of recyclables would offset the added janitorial costs. I also got a statement from the facilities manager saying that the added janitorial workload would be minimal, and that he was heavily in support of the project. Finally I showed three rough estimates from three separate companies showing the potential proffit (I was told I had stepped on some toes by getting these rough quotes, because a student government member doesn't have the power to commit the college to contracts, but since the facility manager had helped me get the quotes, and hadn't actually committed to anything, I got off Scott Free). When it went to board, it won by unanimous decision. I had turned what was at the time a politically divisive issue (others had tried to get similar program expansions before, but used unfriendly rhetoric) into a simple and obvious financial decision. The way I approach environmentalist topics is like that of an old-timey conservationist pragmatism. There are a number of environmental issues that can be addressed in economically responsible ways, and they are the things I focus on. BTW, I am no particular fan of al gore, but I would advise against going ad hominim when evaluating his claims. It is a fallacy for a reason, and ot takes the focus off the important part of the discussion: the claims themselves. ( sorry this is all one big run-on. My phone refuses to learn the concept of paragraphs.)
