Getting cut

[Don Rearic]

Arnisador,

"A straight leg is a broke leg."

 

[Ms J]

Don, seems like you and i tend to agree and everyone else here mostly, and why i flat out teach newbes in self defense and awareness, and my new students that come for FMA class about the blade being flat out unpredictable, facing it and a realty based deal again is totally un predictable, and if your going to face the knife then get trained so you understand the full scope and realties of what you will face, granted.... this will not save your life necessarily, but for heavens sakes it will give them a little edge when facing it... i make sure to give them all the education, stats and information i can so they can at least understand how unpredictable it is as well... i dont just tell them one sided views to be sure. i tell them all the views and all the odds and all the possable case senerios that i can come up with when educating them.

I like you have faced the bladed weapon and from a very young child, and i like you started training and becoming familiar with the blade so i could deal with it on a level that gave me at least more of a success rate when having to save my life...

The problem i had as a child and no doubts it is what saved me then when i was still scared of the blade is that when i was being threatened with it or cut with it as soon as i would feel the knife touch my skin i would go ballistic, and totally sort of go ott to the point of not remembering a lot of what i did to get away and survive... i did not like either place first being under the knife and then having no control of what my body and mind were doing when facing the shock... when i started getting use to the blade, and then training seriously in self defense and so forth... things changed greatly for me on a long term and positive bases.

I have a number of scars from childhood, but... i thank god that i was smart enough to force myself at the age of ten to learn to face the knife... the last time i actually took a serious cut from the knife in a confrontation or live blade training was when i was 15...
serouse meaning more then slices and nicks...

Since then i have faced it a number of times but i have managed to get the hell out alive and in one piece. And i totally credit the facing of the weapon the first few times untrained to getting some training and becoming familiar with it to saving my life and managing not being cut seriously again since then...

Education and awareness can go a hell of a long way when your smart enough to make the hard knocks count and do something about it...

Now here is the funny thing and you will all laugh, my students laugh all the time as well, i cut myself with a knife at least once a month when cooking or doing dishes...

There is a reason though, i born with rheumatoid arthritis, and my small motor functions in my fingers and joints are not good for very small detail cutting of food... now if i could hold the knife in an ice pick or saber grip to cut food and wash knifes i would not get cut lol....

One of the things i do actually to keep and improve the motor functions i do still have, is work with the balisong, for the past 10 years i have been doing breathing and healing modalities wile working the knife to control the swelling in my fingers and joints each morning... it takes me at least 30 min of morning work with my hands and the Bali to be able to even type, write or hold small things without pain and swelling...

But it works and it helps and i again thank god for it because the Bali is the first knife i took to as a kid of 10... that training and the realties of why i took up that knife has given me a huge positive outcome from the huge positive nasty past now in my life to help me control what is normally a life time debilitating disease...

My FMA students laugh at me hard to be sure but, i do try and explain it to them when they see me coming in with Band-Aids and tape over my hand from being cut cooking and cleaning lol...

At first, they thought that i was training dangerously and getting into knife fights in Philly on the weekends for fun. I was the one laughing then....

Ms. J...

The old fat and slow healer that heals through the arts...

 

[Don Rearic]

That's funny you mentioned the Balisong, I was just telling a Local Knife Dealer last night that I use Balis to work the knots out of my hands FROM typing. That's rather odd...

Download this and see the Trainer I picked up last night, they are relatively new from Benchmade.

 

[Ms J]

Odd? nawwwwww i think its way cool...

some day if i you want and i am ever down your way i can teach you some very awsome healing breathing methods that i do with the work in the mornings with the bali...

its actully quite amazing this breathing method and was taught to me by one of my master instructors in Austrialia...

its based on a healing method taught in china and used in there hosptials for dying cancer patiotents for pruifacation of blood and for pain controll..

Ms. J...

 

[arnisador]

...when a fistfight will turn into a knifefight:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/news/2002/06/11/youth_assault_ap/

 

[arnisador]

In this thread at E-budo there are some interesting points being made, plus mention of Bram Frank and the Gunting, Kelly Worden and his knife and videos, and so on.

 

[Wes Idol]

If you believe you are going to get cut, you are now putting it in your mind to accept a cut. The outcome will be what it will be, but I will always go into altercations (as I have in the past) with the mental decision that I will not get cut. I invite you to read "The Book of Five Rings" by Musashi. It is not a long book, but there is some great teaching about mental preparation and execution.

Respectfully,
Wes Idol

 

[arnisador]

I understand about the mental preparation. Realistically, though, isn't it very likely that you will get cut?

 

[Kiwi]

Is it possible to focus on not taking a cut while still knowing that in all probability you will take one (or several) and then... being mentally prepared to continue despite taking it?

Do these concpts go together or do they conflict?

 

[knifeman.dk]

It all depends on "the unknown" factor. You do not know what will be the outcome of the situation before it is ower. You can prepare your mind and maybe overcome cuts and injuries. But you don´t know for sure unless you try it.
If you teach, train og play with a knife or bladed weapon you also know that it is not possible to practise fully with sharp weapons. It is all in the mind .... which means that the attacker must belive that he/she will cut you up! Do you actually want to play with this mind.
I tried to write some thoughts on this at: http://www.knifeman.dk/Psyko/psykouk.html
I do not consider it fullfilled and would appreciate your opinions also on the spelling/grammar

:asian: sincerely knifeman.dk

 

[ace]

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[redfive]

If you go into any situation with a poor attitude, then you will most likely perform poorly. The good thing is that you wont be disapointed with a bad outcome becouse you expected the outcome to be bad. If you get into a knife fight and expect to get cut, well that is a bad attitude to me, and the wrong one to have. To me it is more of a possibility then a certainty. Everyone seems to give to much credit to the doped up crack head loosers, who probably did not make it through the seventh grade, who happen to have a knife. Once again if the bad guys are so bad ***, then we need to train with them. If you face a knife or any weapon you should not be thinking about the latest statistics or what the psychologist say you should be or not be thinking. Or if you get cut your going to go into shock and all that other mental crap. Use good timing, close the distance jam him up. And screw the guy up. If your afraid of a knife and afraid of getting cut, then you will loose, and you will hesitate. That will get you killed. You have to engage the knife. If you wont to control it, that means getting close. You should train with live blades as much as possible, and get used to actualy blocking and grabing the opponents arm. Then throwing low kicks and hand strikes. People seem to always say ," I don't wont to train with real knives, I might get cut". Well then you are in the wrong line of training, and need to go take ballroom dancing at the school down the street. You train like you fight and you fight like you train. If you dont have faith in your skills or training, then you need to look elsewhere. And you have to have the servival mindset. If you get cut, then get over it and hurt the guy twice as hard. Or girl for that matter. Pissed off women always seem to find a knife. My father and my best friends father both did two tours in Vietnam and have seen more hand to hand combat then I ever will in my life time. (I hope). Neither one of them had any formal martial arts training or advanced knife fighting training, yet they servived many confrontations. My father was stabed. He still fought and did not go into shock and all that other medical B.S. terminology. My friends father was shot twice and kept fighing. It's all in the mind. If you have the will to live and tap into your true killer self, then you will servive a knife fight. You may not even get cut. But you must be committed in your attack and defence. If running is an option, then do it. Use your environment and throw stuff at him. Gain a little time and distance and pull your knife out. Maybe he reads all the stuff people say about knife fighting, and will piss his pants and run?

Your friend in the Combat Arts, Redfive

 

[Wes Idol]

I have seen people get shot in the chest with small 20 cal. rounds and continue to leap over a table and pound on the gunman, before getting beating from behind by others. A very close Marine friend of mine shared of man who was stabbed clear through his throat, but still retained the strength and will to pull out a weapon and gun down the stabbing Marine (a platoon member of my friend).

Make no mistake about the severity of your intent, your spirit. It will invade your mental focus and decide the body’s actions. In my mind, I will not get cut, and I am committed to killing you if you come to kill me. Having this commitment and belief has saved my life against knife attacks in the past. As I am committed to the ultimate end (on this physical plane), I not only have a multitude of choices in regards to degrees of actions, I also now know my attacker cannot produce any intent greater than mine.

Once again for anyone who has not, read "Book of Five Rings."

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

 

[arnisador]

The current issue (#18) of W. Hock Hocheim's CQC Magazine has a story by Mr. Hocheim about the reverse grip. He makes the point that there are numerous cases of the person holding a knife in the reverse grip accidentally stabbing themselves while wrestling for control of the knife. He considers this an advantage of the saber grip but also states that there is a time and a place for each grip.

(See also this thread.)

 

[redfive]

Hocks right. Both grips have there place, plusses and negatives. I like the saper grip, even at close quarters. If you have issue #15 of the CQC, I'm the guy on the left, on the front cover. You cant see it on the cover, but my right hand is pinned to my chest by Jeff's left hand. but in the saber grip I still have the tip pointed at him. I could thrust my body forward into him and deliver a real good stab. But in the reverse grip I find that you have better leverage with the blade to deliver a release from a hand grab or pin. and you can us it as a pry bar, hooking and pulling the body in.

Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Training with a mind set that even if you get cut you will continue on is a good idea.

Training with the idea of letting the other guy cut you so you can get a cut in is a stupid idea.

Training in such a manner that you do not expect the other guy to collapse after you stab or slash him is a great idea. How many scenarios seem to stop as soon as the first cut is made? People don't just collapse after being cut, so why stop at the first cut when you train?

People tend not to feel a lot of pain until after the fight. As Don Rearic pointed out, most folks do not know they have been stabbed until they see their own blood- then they faint. It is a dead issue to deal too much on the subject.

Since this thread touched on ASP batons, I will point out some tips.

If you do not want to destroy your bag, or can't afford a traiingn bag, an old tire lashed to a tree works well.

Don't use cheap copies. Even hitting something lightly with one causes them to bend. Go with quality like the ASP brand and not cheapies made in Taiwan.

ASP batons can and do bend under extreme circumstances. Street fights can generally be considered extreme circumstances. I have an associate who is in law enfocement who keeps a bent ASP baton on his desk. The guy he used in on was under the influence and trashed an entire store before he went down. I think he was int he hospital for months afterwards, but that did not help my friend who was staring at the bent peice of metal in his hands.

 

[Wes Idol]

Shadow-,

Your post regarding the reaction of a cut is one that I fully agree with. I have seen cut and slashed attackers keep attacking. I do feel that cuts should be accompanied with strikes.

Certainly there is a train of thought that if you have the extra physical space and security that no one else will attack from your 6:00, one could continue to cut and move until the enemy begins to fade from blood loss. I personally do not fully trust this strategy, but honor it's merit.

As I posted in the begining, I concur with your begining thoughts on the cut.

Respectfully,

WI, HI
UKS

 

[Shadow Hunter]

Thank you Wes.

I have seen people keep going after even increadible amounts of damage. In one of my early jobs a guy got stabbed in the kidney from behind in the classic method of taking out a sentry. Instead of going down, he started running across the field.

So I look at classes where you stab the guy once in the drill and stop with a sneer. I know it looks bad to show people to just go beserk on someone and stab them again and again, but that is what it takes in reality to kill them with a knife. Stab them, take them to the ground, keep pumping the knife in and out of the guy until he stops struggling. Not a pretty picture, but knife fights aren't like the movies.

 

[Kenpodoc]

This thread contains a lot of good information. The gist of it is that peoples responses to trauma are extremely variable and that in some circumstances people can keep going long after one would expect them to collapse. Human beings are an odd combination of extremely tough and fragile at the same time.

Jeff

 

[Ric Flair]

You guys forget to mention that when facing multiple opponents with knives and weapons, you stand less of a chance of not getting killed. The chances of you getting stabbed and not just cut are greater. Remember that the knife can be an extention of the users arms and thus, all one has to do is sneak up behind you and jab you in the back with the knife while you are busy dealing with the chaos. The person's reach would be slightly or greaty increased depending on the length of the weapon... Eventually with so many knife jabs from different people in various parts of your body, you WILL feel the effects of their efforts. You may still put up a fight or a struggle but ultimately you stand a good chance of dying of your wounds...

That is why serious training and reality based preperation is important yet, even then you will not always be sure of the outcome.
Expect the possibility of death in such conflict...