Getting cut

[Don Rearic]

Actually, it is not as easy as that. "Severely disabling" someone often means breaking bones and otherwise busting them up, so the possibility of a Civil Suit will always exist and possibly more than if you had killed them justifiably.

Basically, there are no easy answers and you roll the dice every time. You have to remember, a bunch of people are going to Monday Morning Quarterback the whole altercation anyway. There is no way around that, that IS having a Trial. Hindsight is 20/20, always and being Judged by People who were not there in cases of Self-defense is always the worst form of Monday Morning Quarterbacking you can imagine.

Unless you can articulate every single thought, feeling and emotion you had and then entwine that with what you did, why you did it and how you did it...you're basically sunk anyway.

 

[fist of fury]

Thats true. I would just have to use my mystical jedi mind tricks to sway the jury in my direction.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

Don, why is the clavicle a lethal area? I'm not saying it's not by any means, I'm just not aware of what's lethal in there.

It's too bad too, because the right clavicle is a beauty target for a number 2 (in Pekiti Tirsia, don't know if the numbering is standard).

Pierre

 

[Don Rearic]

The Clavicle is an excellent target with a Baton because if you break it, the arm on that side is basically useless...

ASP's Medical Consultants looked at some Baton Injuries involving the Clavicle and there are recorded fatalities due to the Clavicle breaking, directed downward and puncturing the Subclavian Artery and/or Vein.

Being in P.T., you'll know there are certain thrusts done with a knife that cause major medical problems. Thrusting into the armpits, for example, can sever the Axillary...coming off of the aforementioned structure(s) and becoming the Brachial in the upper arm. If completely severed, it can retract into the chest cavity more and flood it.

The Subclavian Target is alot like that, you basically need a pair of hemostats to stop the bleeding, direct pressure won't accomplish it in many cases...

So, ASP, in their research, looked at the potential for that happening with their Baton and placed that in their Guidelines.

I'm not saying I agree that the potential exists to the degree ASP does, quite frankly, if you hit someone in the ribs, you can puncture a lung or the liver with a broken rib, etc. Anything can happen and almost every thing you can imagine has already happened in Close Quarters Combat.

I just put it in there for people who carry them so they know. The last thing you need is to crack someone in the Clavicle with an ASP and you thought you were not going to smoke them and they croak. Then the Prosecutor says, "Well, you went against the Guidelines ASP set forth, didn't you?" And you're sitting their shaking your head, wondering what Prison food tastes like.

 

[Cthulhu]

I was a bit confused about the clavicle/lethality thing until I remembered that the subclavial artery is one of the targets taught by my FCS instructors, which most likely comes from the Sayoc Kali. Every person I know who has had the misfortune of breaking their clavicle has told me it's one of the most painful things they've ever experienced. One told me that the arm on the same side as the broken clavicle was useless. Another told me that he was in so much pain, he couldn't move at all.

I suppose if you had superb control over the strike, it would be a very nice target to go for. However, if you're pumped with adrenaline and really whang it, I can see where the risk of more severe injury and possibly death could occur.

Ah, Applied Anatomy for the Martial Artist 101.

Cthulhu

 

[DWright]

Intresting about the ASP and the "approved targeting".
PR-24 avoids only the head and neck, and actually trains twin strikes one to each clavicle. Considered a non-lethal tecnique.

Break both of someones clavicles they better have really good friends. (Ever seen how they cast those?)

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by DWright
Intresting about the ASP and the "approved targeting".
PR-24 avoids only the head and neck, and actually trains twin strikes one to each clavicle. Considered a non-lethal tecnique.

It's just two different Companies, Armament Systems and Procedures and Monadnock. It's to be expected really...

Break both of someones clavicles they better have really good friends. (Ever seen how they cast those?)

Break one and they're basically a non-issue unless they have a handgun!

It's pretty ugly, the cast, all up around the shoulder and down to the waist if I remember correctly.

 

[DWright]

Quote:

"It's pretty ugly, the cast, all up around the shoulder and down to the waist if I remember correctly. "


Thats how they cast it. With two broken clavicles the person walks around like Frankenstien. Definitly slows down the knife attack.

 

[Cthulhu]

I found out one of the FCS guros I train with was former law enforcement, and I mentioned this stuff on target areas with as ASP. For the department he worked for, it pretty much came down to the outside of the thigh being the only allowed target area, since various departments in the state had been getting sued for broken kneecaps, arms, hands, etc.

Cthulhu

 

[Ms J]

Originally posted by Despairbear
One of the problems with getting cut anywhere is not just blood loss but tissue damage. Even a cut to the back of the arm can sever muscule and tendons that will cause you to lose the ablility to use the arm effectivly or even at all.
Despair Bear

A Larger factor then slices and tissue damage, when facing the knife is the whole concept your trying to defend against, i.e. allowing someone to get the knife into your body, Note Into any part of your body deeper then approximately 1 ½ to 2 inches deep average, all it takes for your body to go into shock is a puncture or stab of that depth into the body, and this is the core concept of why we are defending against the knife, your trying to avoid getting killed or stabbed deeply enough for your body to go into shock, and at that depth the shock happens instantly.

In most cases, once that happens your dog meat and the attacker pushing the blade in deeper tends to follow easily as your body is in shock and your unable to react in time to even stop it from going in further. i.e. you end up dead or critical...

so that’s why we teach that fighting the knife is about minimizing the damage and getting the hell out.... real knife fights are unpredictable and anyone that try’s to tell you that you are not going to get cut is lying...

only a few things that might give you a higher rate of success for not being cut in a knife fight

1) get out before you get into close quarter range with the knife your facing, create a distance, and get the hell out.

2) now if you pack a gun and your really cool you can, before he is in close quarter range, pull out a gun and shoot the dude faster then he can get to you with the knife. now unfortunately that is a hard thing to do if the attacker is running at you full force with the knife and your gun is holstered..

The average attacker can cover:

5 feet in less then a quarter of a second.

10 feet in less then three-quarters of a second.

21 feet in less then one and a half seconds.

now 95 % of the police and military teams tested for this response rate in scenario training were unable to pull their gun out of their holster before the attacker got there with the knife.

As far as Knife disarms, in a realty based fight, yeah well…. That’s what long term training is for, until your willing to spend a large amount of your life facing the knife daily and training in it realistically, just learn to block, avoid, get out of dodge, create a distance anyway you can, take min cuts when you have to but only to avoid the worst case scenario…..

do I have a choice of defenses that can be used for defending against a knife? Yeah I do, but I make damn well sure my students understand that they better flat out expect to bleed and they better prepare for it or they will be facing the shock of being stabbed or the shock from being cut because someone told them that a defense would save them from getting cut did not work…

seriously, I have seen this instance with some traditional long term martial arts practitioners, that have trained in long term traditional martial arts for 25 years plus, when they end up on the streets for the first time facing a real knife attack, and get a little cut, they go into this freezing up type of shock because they cant believe they got cut….. the realty of everything they have learned for 25 years plus was just wiped out. and they just sort of stand there dazed for a second, that second is when they will eat it hard....

that is not a good place to be when you are seriously defending your life. Granted though, that’s the core thing that a knife fighter is counting on when going after you….. keep cutting until the shock sets in or they get the opening to stick you deeply enough to end the fight.

Note: a number of years ago I had a 30 year old man show up to take classes, came in and braged about how he had trained for a good 10 years taking a karate based art and he had spent a few hours training at some knife seminar. huge dude at least 6 foot 5 220 lbs.

Half way though the class i was teaching we moved from blunts to knife flow drills, at this point he piped up and stated that he had the prefect knife fighting tactic and that he no longer need to learn anymore.

I looked at him and said so what is it? he proceeds to tell me he learned this cool knife fighting technique in this weekend seminar he took once, he said when your fighting with the knife your suppose to take your knife and cut the attackers forehead so that the blood runs down the face into there eyes.

I asked him so wile your focusing all your less then level one knife fighting skills, and intent on aiming for the slice to the forehead, what are you doing to keep them from finding the opening you just made and the wide target to your gut that your leaving them?


Flat out, nothing is 100% because no knife fight is predictable….

Ms. J……

PS. Bear... as far as what are you going to do when you cant use your hand anymore if its been cut?

ummmmm well thats why you train both sides......

i had to teach my Saber teacher this lol... i messed with him sort of hard when i frist started taking saber, whenever he would turn his back on me i would switch hands, he would turn around and watch me then ask me if i was left handed... i said no, he goes well in saber we only use the doment hand...

i looked at him and said ok so what happens with my doment hand gets cut or cant be used? do i just put down the sword and say ooooooooo sorry buddy i cant fight you anymore because i cant hold my weapon in my right hand?

haha he started training his level one fencing students to train both hands though minumaly, but at least they now work them both in his class....

 

[Don Rearic]

The forehead cut is a good one, but for anyone to focus on that would be a mistake. It's still a fight but some people will focus on one or a half dozen things with a knife and won't let go. Basically, you want to be able to fight with a knife instead of "knifefight" per se. But anything you get that would blind them would be a great thing indeed. Vision impairment is a big plus but as you stated, you should never put yourself into a position to where you leave yourself completely open to get anything.

That can also be done on a thrust as well, with the same effect.

 

[Ms J]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
The forehead cut is a good one, but for anyone to focus on that would be a mistake. It's still a fight but some people will focus on one or a half dozen things with a knife and won't let go. Basically, you want to be able to fight with a knife instead of "knifefight" per se. But anything you get that would blind them would be a great thing indeed. Vision impairment is a big plus but as you stated, you should never put yourself into a position to where you leave yourself completely open to get anything.

That can also be done on a thrust as well, with the same effect.

Agreed, but i am not teaching knife fighting, especially in level one training... actually i dont teach knife fighting at all, i teach combat eskrima and gun and knife defensive tactics...

and i guess the largest point i am making is, unless someone is intending on spending their life studying and training in the blade and training in the realtys of the blade on the street, including the mind set of an attacker and all the differant mentaltys that you will face in a real knife fight, one tech is not going to be enough to save you...

Ms. J...

 

[Don Rearic]

That's why I said focusing on any one thing would be a mistake.

 

[Mao]

I think that we should also remember the psychological aspect of getting cut. When it's your own blood it's a little different. A gaping wound on the front OR back of the arm will have a strong psych. effect. Funny story, I was an a call where two guys were in a knife fight and were both laying on the ground, well diced, upon our arrival. The story they told the police was that they were NOT fighting with each other but that it was another guy who jumped them, both, cut them up and then fled. A different story came from witnesses.

 

[Don Rearic]

I have been a fencesitter for quite some time on the psychological aspect of, "expect to get cut" and the other mindset...

And after alot of thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that you should realize there is a possibility that might indeed happen, but if you expect it to happen, it is probably going to happen. The mind is a powerful thing and the possibility of a Self-fulfilling prophecy should not be discounted or casually dismissed. Words mean things, positivity and negativity do have an effect on the mind.

I'm of the mindset that I fully realize I might be cut but my goal is to not be cut. Period.

I can damned well cut myself and don't have to get into it with a street hoodlum to have it happen, I can sit at home and do it myself.

The statements made about shock developing with various depths of penetration is part conjecture and part myth. I've seen people stabbed a half dozen times in the gut and they never even knew it, they were standing there, running their mouth and then, someone pointed it out to them and they crumpled.

That's shock. Having your arm instantly amputated in a car accident may or may not cause shock, looking down and seeing it usually will bring it on quickly. This is why people who are Military Corpsmen, Medics, etc., are told never to be "negative" to the patient because the negativity can kill them in seconds, they lose hope.

If you go into something and you already have it in your head that it is inevitable you are going to be cut...God help you.

In some cases, you won't even feel the cut, it depends on the weapon, the area hit and even the outside temperature. The colder it is, the less likely you will feel it as well.

Some of this comes from real world interviews on "Surviving Edged Weapons" and some of it comes from my own personal experience and that of friends who are active duty Law Enforcement and EMTs.

It's not so simple as is being typed out here.

 

[Mao]

To Dons post,
I agree with you completely. I have seen people stabbed who did not know it untill it was pointed out. I was refering to that exactly, the fact that the sight of your own blood has a strong psych. effect. The way I have approached it when teaching is that it's like boxing or playing football, if you play the game , your gonna get hit. However, that is why we train, so as to have the wherewithall to limit the possibility, or at least to have a better chance. I think that if we understand the psych. as well as the phys. aspect of getting cut,we'd be better off. This is where I can benefit my classes, with all the medical training, by sharing the knowledge/experience that I have garnered in the street. I do not think that one should go into it thinking they WILL get cut, but that they MIGHT and they may fare better with more understanding. Of course leaving the seen before anything starts is a wonderful idea. It appears that Mr. Rearic is quite insightful.

 

[Don Rearic]

I'm trying, Brother, I'm trying... I just don't want people to think they are immediately a Goner if a certain, arbitrary and magical number of inches is reached in penetration. It really has nothing to do with reality. The reality is, with knives, alot like with guns. People have been shot in the face with a .44 Magnum and survived and when President Reagan was shot, you saw a highly trained Secret Service Agent hit the deck from a .22 long rifle round.

The opposite might happen, you might get righteously pissed beause someone did wound you and instead of passing out at the thought of it, it sometimes pops the tab on an economy sized can of Whoopass.

There is an inherent danger in telling people, "You will suffer [or 'probably' either] shock with penetration of..." and then go on. Because that right there, you are programming them as well.

Every person is different, accept the possibility of it and focus on not getting butchered instead of dwelling on, "I know I'm going to get cut, it's inevitable that I get cut."

Believe me, I was in the other "camp" when it comes to this a couple years ago. But then I thought to myself, "WOW, when you got stabbed in the forearm...you didn't go out..." When I got cut with a carpet knife in the upper arm...I never even felt it, it went through the jacket and I never even knew I was cut, I felt like someone tugged on my jacket and that was it. I found out a few minutes later because I was squishy on the left hand side.

We cannot on one hand say things like, "Adrenaline makes you stronger and prepares you for battle and Endorphins are the body's natural morphine and will keep you from feeling pain in many instances..."

And then turn right around and suggest everyone is going to feint when they get stuck or cut a couple inches deep. It's a contradiction based in myth.

Ron Goldman sure as hell looks like he was ambulatory for quite some time and he got nailed repeatedly and much deeper than we are talking about in here. But his sad tale is not the only one to draw from...

 

[Ms J]

Dear Don, i know you have stated that you are basing your theories on experience from others that you know, but its unclear to me if you have been cut or stabbed with a knife before in the middle of a realty based conflict... not in training with the live blade or sparing but on the streets saving your life in a full traumatic event… and if so was it before you got training or after? there is a huge differance.

one of the points to going and getting training is to deal with the shock of the possable stab or cut, is that not part of the mentaly of learning how to deal with the attack? if not for others it is for me and when i teach and why i teach.

Please note i am just asking i am not confronting, or disagreeing with you...

And i agree with you in many instances, i.e. you have to know the realties of being cut, and that seeing the blood and so forth makes a powerful statement, but not only to the victim of the cut but the person doing the slicing and dicing as well...

Note as well though, just because someone does not feel a cut does not mean their body is not going into shock, shock affects people in many many ways, and if you have someone that has seen combat or trained and so forth they understand the realties and mentality’s of facing the knife more then someone that is new and is at a level one student base...

getting cut for them is a totally different physically and mentally, someone that is enraged or drugged and deranged will again have a totally different response to the shock that the body is going through.. Then you have to take into account adrenalin and so forth, again someone that is trained and is an " i.e. " street knife fighter or attacker with a knife... will take the shock to the body differently...

Than we have the totally untrained or a victim of past victimization with the knife...

Some people build a resalntcy to the trauma and others fear more... it totally depends on what took place the first time and how they dealt with the shock of the first encounter...

I agree mostly here that there are huge variables, but…. Remember I don’t teach knife fighting, I teach knife and gun awareness to the untrained and victims of weapons victimization…

So when I teach them I make sure they understand that its about defense and that the chances are they may get cut but that the techniques we are teaching them are to help avoid the death that could happen instead of a small cut here and there…

Again the mind set for these people and for untrained woman in self defense and awareness is what has to be taken into account first, above anything else, no matter what we teach its is catered to the mind set of the students we are teaching at the time…

I will state now, that my experience, training and advocacy of what i teach to others, not only comes form all of my teachers, my realty life based street defense of my own life a number of times dealing with weapons, body guarding experance saving my clinents lives, from the medical community as well as the psychiatric community, 15 years experance counsling victims of abuse, rape, domestic violance, victims of violent crime, Victims of weapons attacks and abuse, and then all of the many people that i have taught and trained on a global bases over the past 22 years in personal self defense and weapons awareness...


Ms. J....

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Ms J
Dear Don, i know you have stated that you are basing your theories on experience from others that you know, but its unclear to me if you have been cut or stabbed with a knife before in the middle of a realty based conflict... not in training with the live blade or sparing but on the streets saving your life in a full traumatic event… and if so was it before you got training or after? there is a huge differance.

Both times I was already trained in Jujutsu [not BJJ] and had some TKD [sigh] unfortunately, neither prepared me for this sort of thing.

The one on the upper arm was from a carpet knife, as I said before. When you look at these blades, they are basically just a triangular piece of steel when they are sticking out. It was actually more of a thrust [looking at it years later, scars shrink a bit and it is about two inches in length now], in that, it was very deep then went very shallow, like it went in and was simply dragged out. It must have been a new blade. I never even felt it until after everything was over. Then I got a bit queasy because I had the whole left side of me turning slushy. That was interesting because I was actually paying more attention to another guy who had a baseball bat who was a few feet away. I originally thought his buddy tried to punch me and he glanced off...

The other time was a pass, trying to pick the wrist up and I got stuck in the outside of the forearm. That one hurt, stung a bit, but that was not any sort of "shocking event" either even though I knew what happened and knew what I faced.

These two incidents are actually what led me down the road to learning about edged weapons and I guess in that way, they served their purpose.

I think shock is going to vary so wildly from person to person, like you stated, how will a drunk react? Well, no one knows for sure, but we know alcohol is an anticoagulant, so we know they hemorrhage profusely. Methamphetamine and PCP, all different things going on in the "Street World."

Training can change some things, blade training even more... The point I'm trying to get at is, there is no accurate way of predicting shock.

There is no way you can predict pain. One slash will cut a nerve and you cannot feel anything in that area. Severe hemorrhage can also numb a wound... As we are both agreeing, there are many variables.

I think this sort of goes back to William Fairbairn's "Timetable of Death" when it comes to edged weapons. As right as Fairbairn was on so many things related to Close Quarters Combat, I have shopped that "Timetable" to a Vascular Nurse and an Orthopedic Surgeon at Baltimore's Union Memorial Hospital as well as Shock Trauma Nurses and one Surgeon at Baltimore's Shock Trauma when I have been there on business in the past. Once they got by the "shock" of such an odd request, I think they understood and they, too, stated there were so many variables that one could not possibly predict that one artery being severed, or a combination would cause unconsciousness and/or death in X number of seconds or minutes.

I posted this in a discussion with Darren Laur back a couple of months ago. Dr. Newgard was speaking of Gunshot Wounds [GSWs] but the information is still valid and has some use to those interested in Edged Weapons Combatives.

"For an average 70 kg (155 lb.) male, the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force) his aortic blood flow can reach 11liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume. This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because:

1. Bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood
vessels.

2. As blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows.

3. Surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss.

4. The bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels.

5. Bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood
vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than a rapid bleeding.”

~Ken Newgard, M.D.:”The Physiological Effects of Handgun
Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation.”
Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992

Do you see one contradiction already? I do, but it is not Newgard's fault, it's the way our body is wired. Under stress, you have more blood volume, when the person begins to hemorrhage profusely, the body will adjust to slow the bleeding.

In the Famous "Miami Shootout," which should be familiar to some folks as it was the one incident that made a drastic shift from revolvers to semiautomatic handguns in American Law Enforcement, the one bank robber [Platt] had a severed brachial artery and vein in one arm and actively engaged for quite some time.

As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Dove’s 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.
..

...At autopsy, Platt’s right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platt’s first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s death.

Continuing...

Platt then apparently positioned the Mini-14 against his shoulder using his uninjured left hand and manipulated the trigger with a barely functioning finger on his right hand, and fired three shots. One shot was directed at Orrantia and Risner’s location, which hit the steering wheel of their car. Orrantia was injured by flying debris from this bullet. Two shots were fired at McNeill. The first bullet missed McNeill, but the second hit his neck. The second bullet stunned McNeill’s spinal cord causing him to collapse, and he was temporarily paralyzed for several hours afterwards. McNeill recounts that Platt was smiling at him as he was shot.

The FBI Shootout in Miami against Platt & Matix at Firearms Tactical Online.

Platt was smiling as he was exsanguinating, he had no fear, he did not care what Fairbairn or anyone else had to say about how he should drop when severely wounded and not merely stabbed or slashed.

The reason this information is so incredibly important to people interested in Edged Weapons is, the brachial artery is one of the prime vessels that can be struck in "defanging the snake." Structural targets and vascular, this one being the latter, obviously.

We are told that people will drop in a few seconds after taking such a hit, but that is simply not so.

How we react when shot, stabbed or cut has everything to do with how we program ourselves. Television plays a large role in this. Platt apparently missed the episodes on TV and Movies where people are supposed to die and he most certainly missed Paul Vunak's statements about the brachial being able to cause unconsciousness in a few seconds.

Platt was like an animal, he fell only when his body told him to fall. It's just that simple. No one told him he should have been in shock and even if he was in shock, he still counterattacked with ferocity and determination and even smiled at one Officer before he let him have it with a Mini-14. That's a pretty determined foe.

We all hope we run into someone that thinks they are supposed to instantaneously go into shock! We don't want to run into a criminal like Platt. Makes the job of Self-defense almost a suicidal task. He was a dead man walking. He would not fall because Hollywood told him to, and in point of fact, he did not fall because of exsanguination, he was stopped, finally, by FBI Agent Mireles
who shot him again and again with a .357 Magnum. Platt, almost miraculously, survived and had a heartbeat although he was unconscious while the EMTs worked on the wounded FBI Agents and Police Officers and they then shifted their attention to Platt and Matix. Matix was dead and they started to work on Platt but he died a short time later at the scene. It's all in the report.

The point I am trying to make is, Platt was a survivor when many others would have given up and died. Although we don't want to be a dirtbag, robbing murderer like Platt, if someone shoots, stabs or slashes us, we want to FIGHT LIKE HIM. It's really that simple.

He died because he did not believe he should fall.

This goes to Old Wive's Tales of .45 Autos "knocking people down" or "making them fly backwards..." It's nonsense and easily explained.

The Owner of Second Chance, a Manufacturer of Bullet Resistant Vests, once stated, "It is your reaction to the bullet and not the power of the bullet that makes you jump up in the air or fly backwards. If someone sticks you in the *** with a pin [needle-stick-pin] it is not the power of the pin causing you to go up in the air, it's your reaction to it."

This also goes to Preprogramming, if people think they are supposed to go down, jump up in the air or fly backwards 7 feet into a wall when they are shot, it is quite likely that will happen! It's psychological programming.

That's why I'm against Preprogramming myself or anyone else to believe we are going into shock upon being cut or stabbed. It is, of course, possible...but it does not have to be that way in many cases. Medically speaking, you have not lost enough blood to go out, which means the shock you are in, you are placing yourself into it. It's really that simple.

That's why I don't want to be programmed to "go into shock" as soon as I get hit. If I believe that, it won't matter that my wound(s) were survivable or not, I'll be dying because I think I'm supposed to be in shock.

I know this is alot of information to digest, I just wanted to put my argument on a firm, Medical footing instead of relying on any other thing including my own altercations I have been involved in.

Shock before 20% blood volume loss [Newgard], in my opinion, is more psychological than anything, therefore, why would I want to impact myself in a negative fashion by demanding and preprogramming myself I will go into shock?

Many thanks to Dr. Walter Welch who was an invaluable resource in doing my research from time to time over the past three years. He passed away just a few weeks ago and he is missed.

 

[arnisador]

This is a fascinating discussion of obvious interest to those in the FMA. I too have long heard it both ways--"If you get cut you'll go into shock" and "People do amazing things on adrenaline and/or drugs" and it is contradictory.

My guess is that a good cut is very likely to end a fight, shock being just one reason, but there's nothing that says "Please leave me alone" like a broken leg. Structural damage--that's what I've always liked about the karate philosophy. An unarmed man with a broken leg simply cannot fight. As Mr. Rearic points out there's much to be said for vascular damage too especially in a knife fighting context--a man without blood flowing in his veins cannot fight either.