Originally posted by Ms J
Dear Don, i know you have stated that you are basing your theories on experience from others that you know, but its unclear to me if you have been cut or stabbed with a knife before in the middle of a realty based conflict... not in training with the live blade or sparing but on the streets saving your life in a full traumatic event
and if so was it before you got training or after? there is a huge differance.
Both times I was already trained in Jujutsu [not BJJ] and had some TKD [sigh] unfortunately, neither prepared me for this sort of thing.
The one on the upper arm was from a carpet knife, as I said before. When you look at these blades, they are basically just a triangular piece of steel when they are sticking out. It was actually more of a thrust [looking at it years later, scars shrink a bit and it is about two inches in length now], in that, it was very deep then went very shallow, like it went in and was simply dragged out. It must have been a new blade. I never even felt it until after everything was over. Then I got a bit queasy because I had the whole left side of me turning slushy. That was interesting because I was actually paying more attention to another guy who had a baseball bat who was a few feet away. I originally thought his buddy tried to punch me and he glanced off...
The other time was a pass, trying to pick the wrist up and I got stuck in the outside of the forearm. That one hurt, stung a bit, but that was not any sort of "shocking event" either even though I knew what happened and knew what I faced.
These two incidents are actually what led me down the road to learning about edged weapons and I guess in that way, they served their purpose.
I think shock is going to vary so wildly from person to person, like you stated, how will a drunk react? Well, no one knows for sure, but we know alcohol is an anticoagulant, so we know they hemorrhage profusely. Methamphetamine and PCP, all different things going on in the "Street World."
Training can change some things, blade training even more... The point I'm trying to get at is, there is no accurate way of predicting shock.
There is no way you can predict pain. One slash will cut a nerve and you cannot feel anything in that area. Severe hemorrhage can also numb a wound... As we are both agreeing, there are many variables.
I think this sort of goes back to William Fairbairn's "Timetable of Death" when it comes to edged weapons. As right as Fairbairn was on so many things related to Close Quarters Combat, I have shopped that "Timetable" to a Vascular Nurse and an Orthopedic Surgeon at Baltimore's Union Memorial Hospital as well as Shock Trauma Nurses and one Surgeon at Baltimore's Shock Trauma when I have been there on business in the past. Once they got by the "shock" of such an odd request, I think they understood and they, too, stated there were so many variables that one could not possibly predict that one artery being severed, or a combination would cause unconsciousness and/or death in X number of seconds or minutes.
I posted this in a discussion with Darren Laur back a couple of months ago. Dr. Newgard was speaking of Gunshot Wounds [GSWs] but the information is still valid and has some use to those interested in Edged Weapons Combatives.
"For an average 70 kg (155 lb.) male, the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force) his aortic blood flow can reach 11liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume. This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.
Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because:
1. Bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood
vessels.
2. As blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows.
3. Surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss.
4. The bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels.
5. Bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood
vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than a rapid bleeding.
~Ken Newgard, M.D.:The Physiological Effects of Handgun
Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation.
Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992
Do you see one contradiction already? I do, but it is not Newgard's fault, it's the way our body is wired. Under stress, you have more blood volume, when the person begins to hemorrhage profusely, the body will adjust to slow the bleeding.
In the Famous "Miami Shootout," which should be familiar to some folks as it was the one incident that made a drastic shift from revolvers to semiautomatic handguns in American Law Enforcement, the one bank robber [Platt] had a severed brachial artery
and vein in one arm and actively engaged for quite some time.
As Platt crawled through the passenger side window, one of Doves 9mm bullets hit his right upper arm, just above the inside crook of the elbow. According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.
..
...At autopsy, Platts right lung was completely collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1300 ml of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Dr. Anderson believes that Platts first wound (right upper arm/chest wound B) was unsurvivable, and was the primary injury responsible for Platts death.
Continuing...
Platt then apparently positioned the Mini-14 against his shoulder using his uninjured left hand and manipulated the trigger with a barely functioning finger on his right hand, and fired three shots. One shot was directed at Orrantia and Risners location, which hit the steering wheel of their car. Orrantia was injured by flying debris from this bullet. Two shots were fired at McNeill. The first bullet missed McNeill, but the second hit his neck. The second bullet stunned McNeills spinal cord causing him to collapse, and he was temporarily paralyzed for several hours afterwards. McNeill recounts that Platt was smiling at him as he was shot.
The FBI Shootout in Miami against Platt & Matix at Firearms Tactical Online.
Platt was
smiling as he was exsanguinating, he had no fear, he did not care what Fairbairn or anyone else had to say about how he should drop when severely wounded and not merely stabbed or slashed.
The reason this information is so incredibly important to people interested in Edged Weapons is, the brachial artery is one of the prime vessels that can be struck in "defanging the snake." Structural targets and vascular, this one being the latter, obviously.
We are told that people will drop in a few seconds after taking such a hit, but that is simply not so.
How we react when shot, stabbed or cut has everything to do with how we program ourselves. Television plays a large role in this. Platt apparently missed the episodes on TV and Movies where people are supposed to die and he most certainly missed Paul Vunak's statements about the brachial being able to cause unconsciousness in a few seconds.
Platt was like an animal, he fell only when his body told him to fall. It's just that simple. No one told him he should have been in shock and even if he was in shock, he still counterattacked with ferocity and determination and even smiled at one Officer before he let him have it with a Mini-14. That's a pretty determined foe.
We all hope we run into someone that thinks they are supposed to instantaneously go into shock! We don't want to run into a criminal like Platt. Makes the job of Self-defense almost a suicidal task. He was a
dead man walking. He would not fall because Hollywood told him to, and in point of fact, he did not fall because of exsanguination, he was stopped, finally, by FBI Agent Mireles
who shot him again and again with a .357 Magnum. Platt, almost miraculously, survived and had a heartbeat although he was unconscious while the EMTs worked on the wounded FBI Agents and Police Officers and they then shifted their attention to Platt and Matix. Matix was dead and they started to work on Platt but he died a short time later at the scene. It's all in the report.
The point I am trying to make is, Platt was a survivor when many others would have given up and died. Although we don't want to be a dirtbag, robbing murderer like Platt, if someone shoots, stabs or slashes us, we want to FIGHT LIKE HIM. It's really that simple.
He died because he did not believe he should fall.
This goes to Old Wive's Tales of .45 Autos "knocking people down" or "making them fly backwards..." It's nonsense and easily explained.
The Owner of Second Chance, a Manufacturer of Bullet Resistant Vests, once stated, "It is your reaction to the bullet and not the power of the bullet that makes you jump up in the air or fly backwards. If someone sticks you in the *** with a pin [needle-stick-pin] it is not the power of the pin causing you to go up in the air, it's your reaction to it."
This also goes to Preprogramming, if people think they are supposed to go down, jump up in the air or fly backwards 7 feet into a wall when they are shot, it is quite likely that will happen! It's psychological programming.
That's why I'm against Preprogramming myself or anyone else to believe we are going into shock upon being cut or stabbed. It is, of course, possible...but it does not have to be that way in many cases. Medically speaking, you have not lost enough blood to go out, which means the shock you are in, you are placing yourself into it. It's really that simple.
That's why I don't want to be programmed to "go into shock" as soon as I get hit. If I believe that, it won't matter that my wound(s) were survivable or not, I'll be dying because I think I'm supposed to be in shock.
I know this is alot of information to digest, I just wanted to put my argument on a firm,
Medical footing instead of relying on any other thing including my own altercations I have been involved in.
Shock before 20% blood volume loss [Newgard], in my opinion, is more psychological than anything, therefore, why would I want to impact myself in a negative fashion by demanding and preprogramming myself I will go into shock?
Many thanks to Dr. Walter Welch who was an invaluable resource in doing my research from time to time over the past three years. He passed away just a few weeks ago and he is missed.
actually i dont teach knife fighting at all, i teach combat eskrima and gun and knife defensive tactics... 
