George Zmmerman trial begins...

[granfire]

I wasn't poviding another scenario in the respect I'm thinking you see. I was just showing neither side can prove what happened and it's harder for the defense because Zimmerman followed Martin and that alone shows his action as "initiating" whatever followed.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

true.

But under normal circumstance it would also come into play that the formerly upscaleish neighborhood had been plagued by a string of crimes...prompting Z to follow this unknown figure only to find himself attacked...goes both ways.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[MJS]

Texts from TMs phone not allowed:
http://news.yahoo.com/judge-rules-against-zimmerman-evidence-132354666.html

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — A central Florida judge ruled Wednesday that Trayvon Martin's cellphone texts on fighting and a defense animation depicting the fight between Martin and George Zimmerman won't be introduced as evidence at Zimmerman's trial.
Judge Debra Nelson made her ruling Wednesday, a day after she heard arguments on the matter. Prosecutors had claimed the texts were irrelevant and taken out of context. They also objected to the computer animation, questioning its accuracy and saying it would mislead jurors.

 

[billc]

being followed by an armed adult

There is no way to know if Martin knew Zimmerman was armed. He had the pistol under his jacket and it was very dark out. If Martin knew Zimmerman was armed, he might have gone straight home instead of sticking around...

 

[billc]

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07/breaking-jury-will-not-get-to-see-trayvon-fighting-texts/

The Judge in the Zimmerman trial just ruled that the jury will not get to see numerous text messages

on Trayvon Martin’s phone regarding his prowess at fighting, including texts as to how to punch someone in the nose and make them bleed.

West: #TrayvonMartin texted on "how he was able to hit the person in the nose & make their nose bleed." #ZimmermanTrial #GeorgeZimmerman
— Jeff Weiner (@JeffWeinerOS) July 10, 2013

​

The Judge did not give an explanation for her ruling other than to stand by her prior ruling as to social media evidence.
It is not clear if the Judge found a lack of authentication, which was one of the arguments last night. The Judge did indicate she reviewed the Lumarque case in which a trial court was reversed for failing to allow text messages.

...

 

[arnisador]

Really? Seriously? I'll take your word for it because I wasn't there. And you were apparently.

We're either discussing this online or we're not. If the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, shut the site down--I'm not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that [martial art name deleted] is of any value in self-defense.

 

[arnisador]

He could have been the Butcher of Buchenwald, Ed Gein, Osama bin Laden and Karl Rove rolled into one brown ball of evil, and it doesn't justify Zimmerman's actions.

I guarantee you could've shot OBL. They'd have given you a $50M reward.

You're being followed by an older man with a gun, in the dark of night.

Like I said-I might just have done the same thing as Trayvon Martin, under the circumstances.....and "beat the living hell out of Zimmerman."

He knew he was being followed by someone with a gun? (I haven't been following the case that closely, though I'll be interested to hear the result.) Or just that he was being followed? Anyway, by your own logic, your actions in such a case would surely have been unjustified too--initiating an assault for being followed (itself a sometimes erroneous conclusion).

 

[arnisador]

And if GZ is found not guilty, we can only hope (yeah, I know I'm asking for A LOT here) that the citizens don't riot

I expect there'll be a riot for any number of reasons if this happens, and it's looking that way to me. I think the law there allows for and possibly encourages this reckless behavior that has a kid dead and the state spending absurd amounts of money on a single case rather than on other crime-related matters. No duty to retreat makes great sense in your home or business but in the street it just encourages vigilantism and machismo.

 

[arnisador]

Something that is completely overlooked is that Travon being on top really means nothing. There's no way to prove who attacked who. Anyone who knows anything about real fights knows that it could of been just as likely as any other scenario that Zimmerman tackeled Travon and they rolled around with Travon landing on top and Georges injuries could be a result of rolling around.

That's my point. For every point the defense makes, there's other scenarios that "could of " happened. In my opinion, the defense has an uphill battle.

No, that is to the defense's advantage because of the presumption of evidence--every open question is reasonable doubt.

 

[arnisador]

I wasn't poviding another scenario in the respect I'm thinking you see. I was just showing neither side can prove what happened

Automatic win for the defense if so--even if the jury voted to convict, the judge would have to set it aside if the state doesn't prove its case.

 

[MJS]

I expect there'll be a riot for any number of reasons if this happens, and it's looking that way to me. I think the law there allows for and possibly encourages this reckless behavior that has a kid dead and the state spending absurd amounts of money on a single case rather than on other crime-related matters. No duty to retreat makes great sense in your home or business but in the street it just encourages vigilantism and machismo.

If someone wants to peacefully protest, fine, I've got no issues with that. When people start acting like complete, total *******s, rioting, acting like an animal! NO need for any of that. I say that, because what is it proving? What is accomplished? NOTHING! Not a damn thing!

As for the SYG law...yup, I agree with you on that one. And IMHO, I can't help but think that this is what GM was playing on. I'm not saying TM was an angel, but I feel that GZ could've used this to his advantage. If he was following this kid, and the kid turns around and confronts him, asking why he's following, well, there ya go...instant SYG.

 

[granfire]

If someone wants to peacefully protest, fine, I've got no issues with that. When people start acting like complete, total *******s, rioting, acting like an animal! NO need for any of that. I say that, because what is it proving? What is accomplished? NOTHING! Not a damn thing!

As for the SYG law...yup, I agree with you on that one. And IMHO, I can't help but think that this is what GM was playing on. I'm not saying TM was an angel, but I feel that GZ could've used this to his advantage. If he was following this kid, and the kid turns around and confronts him, asking why he's following, well, there ya go...instant SYG.

But where does SYG start?
"Hey mate, what's up, never seen you around here before"
are you at fault when you can't get out of the way of a punch quick enough?

Can you accost somebody for saying hello?

 

[MJS]

But where does SYG start?
"Hey mate, what's up, never seen you around here before"
are you at fault when you can't get out of the way of a punch quick enough?

Can you accost somebody for saying hello?

Good point...where does it start? No, IMO, I don't feel you should KO someone for saying hello. But that was the point I was trying to make. I have to wonder if GZ didn't use the SYG law in his favor, when in reality, he was in the wrong, all along. If someone intentionally sets out to look for trouble, and then turns around and tries to play the victim, that's not right. How can they get away with playing that card, when they were the ones who initiated the trouble to being with?

GZ didn't have to follow TM. IMO, on face value, to me, GZ was playing wanna be cop. He could've just as easily have hung back and been a good witness to the cops. Let them confront TM. So instead, GZ engages TM, and who knows what happened from there. GZ is obviously, right or wrong, going to play the SYG card.


I hope that made sense.

 

[arnisador]

If someone wants to peacefully protest, fine, I've got no issues with that. When people start acting like complete, total *******s, rioting, acting like an animal! NO need for any of that. I say that, because what is it proving? What is accomplished? NOTHING! Not a damn thing!

As for the SYG law...yup, I agree with you on that one. And IMHO, I can't help but think that this is what GM was playing on. I'm not saying TM was an angel, but I feel that GZ could've used this to his advantage. If he was following this kid, and the kid turns around and confronts him, asking why he's following, well, there ya go...instant SYG.

Agreed all around--I think GZ knew the law and was hoping to use it in just a way as this (which I assume he now realizes wasn't worth the hassle to him). I expect there'll be a riot because some people will just be happy to have an excuse to riot, loot, etc., beyond those who are truly morally outraged. It's almost de rigeur now to have a riot, sadly.

 

[granfire]

Good point...where does it start? No, IMO, I don't feel you should KO someone for saying hello. But that was the point I was trying to make. I have to wonder if GZ didn't use the SYG law in his favor, when in reality, he was in the wrong, all along. If someone intentionally sets out to look for trouble, and then turns around and tries to play the victim, that's not right. How can they get away with playing that card, when they were the ones who initiated the trouble to being with?

GZ didn't have to follow TM. IMO, on face value, to me, GZ was playing wanna be cop. He could've just as easily have hung back and been a good witness to the cops. Let them confront TM. So instead, GZ engages TM, and who knows what happened from there. GZ is obviously, right or wrong, going to play the SYG card.


I hope that made sense.

makes complete sense...

on the other hand, TM could have also called the cops, let them deal with the 'stalker'

 

[arnisador]

Expected this--he won't testify:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...l?Post+generic=?tid=sm_twitter_washingtonpost

 

[billc]

There was a use of force expert questioned today...the prosecution again took the opportunity to undermine it's own case, and this last witness...She revealed the environment that made Martin look suspiciuos...

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/0...ests-closing-statements-start-tomorrow//#more

Olivia Bertalan, former Twin Lakes resident

The next defense witness was Olivia Bertalan, a former resident of Twin Lakes. On direct by O’Mara she recounted an absolutely horrific story of a home invasion, in which two black men in their late teens broke into her home and began ransacking it. She and her 9-month-old son ran up to his bedroom, locked the door, and huddled in a corner. The 911 dispatcher told her to grab any weapon she could and be ready to use it–the best weapon at hand was a rusty pair of scissors. Moments later one of the intruders was rattling the doorknob on the bedroom door.
Just listening to it was horrifying, but it got worse.

Some time later one of the invaders was identified and arrested. He was, however, a minor and was released from arrest on that basis. And, unimaginably, he himself was a resident of Twin Lakes, living in the neighborhood only a short distance from Bertalan’s own home.

It was very plain that this was still a deeply traumatized woman, even now almost 18 months after the invasion.
O’Mara then asked her about her interactions with Zimmerman in the aftermath of these events. Bertalan responded that they were terrified, and just so appreciative of George’s offers to help them, to make sure that they were OK. He even arranged for Bertalan to spend some time with his wife Shellie, as she was too frightened to stay at home alone.
The testimony of Bertalan was reminiscent of the compelling testimony of Elouise Dilligard the day before, also a Zimmerman neighbor. The Zimmerman these people described, this kind, caring neighbor, could not be further from the evil, seething, racist murdered of young black boys that the State continues to try to sell to the jury.

 

[ballen0351]

I was in Sanford Fla today it looked like a nice town. Its a shame it will be burned down when the trial is over

 

[Tames D]

I was in Sanford Fla today it looked like a nice town. Its a shame it will be burned down when the trial is over

No doubt about it. And how many people will have to die?

 

[crushing]

There are some interesting theories and opinions as to what happened and what may have been going on in the minds of Martin and Zimmerman as this incident unfolded and escalated.

I was in Sanford Fla today it looked like a nice town. Its a shame it will be burned down when the trial is over

The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street

 

[billc]

Contributing factor to the possible upcoming unrest in Sanford...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/10/Trayvongate

Judicial Watch revealed documents today that proved what Breitbart News reported in April, 2012: that Eric Holder's Department of Justice took an active role in racially charged rallies in Sanford, Florida and that the Community Relations Service helped force the temporary resignation of Sheriff Bill Lee. That resignation made it appear that Sanford authorities were suspect and possibly complicit in covering up something.


Some of my reporting at the time was based on interviews with numerous public officials in Sanford who wanted to remain anonymous out of fear of retribution from the Obama administration. They described a situation where the CRS team took over and forced decisions while clearing a path for protests and rallies that heightened the appearence of racial tensions.
The CRS is a small unit within the Department of Justice and ostensibly it serves a legitimate purpose; attempting to cool down tense situation. As its website says:

The Community Relations Service is the Department's "peacemaker" for community conflicts and tensions arising from differences of race, color, and national origin. Created by the Civil Rights Act of 1964, CRS is the only Federal agency dedicated to assist State and local units of government, private and public organizations, and community groups with preventing and resolving racial and ethnic tensions, incidents, and civil disorders, and in restoring racial stability and harmony.
​

However, under the highly politicized Holder Department of Justice, the CRS has acted as 'spies and muscle' according to a source familiar with the unit. In the Zimmerman case, they ended up as doing nothing to facilitate 'racial stability and harmony ', instead acting a heavy thumb on the scales of justice and helping to force events that gave the nation an impression that Martin's death was racially motivated.