George Zmmerman trial begins...

[Brian R. VanCise]

Why is it scary? The people legally carrying guns are not the ones commiting crimes. As a cop I wish more people would carry guns. Its your right so exercise it.

I for one would rather that people who are carrying handguns and allowed to do so with a ccw, cpl, etc. have some decent training and knowledge of the law. I am for more training rather than less. I personally know a few knuckle heads who have minimal to no training and legally carry and their knowledge of firearms and the law is horrendous to say the least. They are an accident waiting to happen. I have of course gone out of my way to try and help them to improve their skills and knowledge but unfortunately they already know everything!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have also been in a ccw class where the instructor was terrible, students did not learn much and god help them if they ever have to use their firearms! So even if someone has some training it still might be crap training!

 

[arnisador]

If your pinned to the groung getting pounded in the face every state in the Union would consider that self defense stand your ground or not.

The point is that the judge instructed the jury about his right to stand his ground, so it did indeed make an appearance in the trial whether it needed to have been brought in or not.

 

[arnisador]

Exactly! Let's eliminate the middle man here. If TM was that nervous of who was following him, why the hell was he talking to a girl, rather than the cops?

Some people distrust the cops. This is unfortunate but it's true.

 

[arnisador]

I may be wrong here, but this implies that unless you're a LEO, that nobody should be carrying. OTOH, my personal feeling is, is you're going to carry, then you should be going thru all the required courses, safety, use of force, etc. Thus, in a nutshell, you should be trained.

I'm for CCW and I am very much for your version of it. My point is that there's a difference between a cop stopping and questioning a person and a guy on the street doing so.

 

[MJS]

Why is it scary? The people legally carrying guns are not the ones commiting crimes. As a cop I wish more people would carry guns. Its your right so exercise it.

I was replying to what Brian said here:

"Very true. Yet some States training is sorely lacking. So badly in fact that their might not be any training at all. However, most States due have some minimal standard! Probably should be more though!"

I stand by what I said...if someone doesn't have training, and they're able to own a gun...sorry, but not only is that scary, its also sad and pathetic. I'm not against someone owning a gun either, but if they don't have a clue how to use it.....

 

[MJS]

Some people distrust the cops. This is unfortunate but it's true.

True. OTOH, people shouldn't paint all cops with the same broad brush. Oddly enough, who is it that these people call when they need help? Oh yeah, the cops. LOL!

I'm for CCW and I am very much for your version of it. My point is that there's a difference between a cop stopping and questioning a person and a guy on the street doing so.

I agree. Once again, I can't help but to keep stressing why I feel it'd be beneficial to this discussion, if we knew exactly what GZ, as a neighborhood watchman, was allowed/not allowed, to do. Just like security in a bar, club, shopping mall, etc. I'm sure they have a policy in place that dictates exactly what can be done. GZ did call the cops, that much I'll give him. I know it's been up for debate as to whether or not he should've followed him on foot, with some saying no, and others saying he has the right to walk wherever he wants as long as he's legally allowed to be there.

 

[arnisador]

The National Sheriff's Association, which sponsors the official Neighborhood Watch program, has denounced GZ. But it may be that "neighborhood watch" is being used loosely here.

 

[ballen0351]

The National Sheriff's Association, which sponsors the official Neighborhood Watch program, has denounced GZ. But it may be that "neighborhood watch" is being used loosely here.

Funny you keep bringing them up but they have nothing to do with neighborhood watch programs here. In fact here a sheriff isn't even a law enforcement officer. They are civil process, court security, and warrant servers. We have a county police department that does the police work. I know some places still have full service sheriff departments but not everywhere so I guess the NW programs we run are not good enough since we're not endorsed by this national sheriff organization.

 

[ballen0351]

The point is that the judge instructed the jury about his right to stand his ground, so it did indeed make an appearance in the trial whether it needed to have been brought in or not.

And my point still stands even without stand your ground laws you would be justified in shooting someone in almost every state if they mounted you and were pounding your face. Even here in my state we have a duty to escape first before you can defend yourself once your pinned down you can't escape anymore

 

[arnisador]

And my point still stands even without stand your ground laws you would be justified in shooting someone in almost every state if they mounted you and were pounding your face.

Agreed. People keep saying SYG was not relevant to the trial. That's wrong. The judge thought is was important enough to instruct the jury about it. That's the point.

 

[Big Don]

Why is it scary? The people legally carrying guns are not the ones commiting crimes. As a cop I wish more people would carry guns. Its your right so exercise it.

That is what my county Sheriff says.

 

[Big Don]

Some people distrust the cops. This is unfortunate but it's true.

I've noticed a lot of those who do tend to have criminal histories or criminal friends and family...

 

[Big Don]

Agreed. People keep saying SYG was not relevant to the trial. That's wrong. The judge thought is was important enough to instruct the jury about it. That's the point.

The judge thought it was OK to throw Manslaughter into the mix with jury instructions as well...

 

[arnisador]

I've noticed a lot of those who do tend to have criminal histories or criminal friends and family...

Look harder. There's more to it than that.

 

[Big Don]

Look harder. There's more to it than that.

Not always, not even frequently.

 

[Grenadier]

The judge thought it was OK to throw Manslaughter into the mix with jury instructions as well...

This isn't unheard of, and quite a few judges will give such instructions to the jury that lesser charges can be considered. I don't consider it appropriate, since the prosecution generally decides what charge they want to pursue, and it's up to them to pursue that in front of the jury. You prepare for your case against the initial charges, and that's the way it should be, unless making a deal with the defendant on a lesser charge.

Thankfully, the jury here made the correct call, that simple, justified self-defense is justified self-defense, regardless of whether it were for manslaughter or murder charges.

Where the judge did screw up is in bringing Stand Your Ground into the argument, since the duty to retreat was NEVER an option for Zimmerman. He was unable to retreat, and was in the process of getting his head split open by Trayvon Martin's repeated bashing of his head into the concrete.

 

[billc]

As for the other....sad isn't it? People are paralyzed by fear from the bad guys, that they could be standing 2 feet away from the guy who got shot, but somehow, they didn't see ****.

It is sad but keep in mind...these people have to live in those neighborhoods and probably can't uproot their lives and move out of state with hidden identities. It is one thing to lament that they won't testify, but can anyone really blame them when you look at the reality these people face?

Would you be willing to die to try to put a criminal in jail, knowing that there was a good chance that even with your testimony the guy still might go free...or get out of jail a few years later...or get his freinds to deal with you...or your wife...or your children?

If they testify is it possible that the friends (possibly gang affiliated friends ) will retaliate? If so, what will the response of the police be? will the police go out and kill those responsible for the death of the witness or his family member? Probably not, so the guys killing the witness or his family members will only face an arrest...if the next witness is willing to take the chance that the friends of this killer won't kill them.

I often point out to people the reality of the police position. The detectives walk up to the scene where the key witness has been found murdered. The one says to the other..."That guy sure was brave, and without his testimony, the killer goes free..." The other detective says..." Yeah, well...there is always next time...want to get a beer..." My point is not, I repeat NOT, to condemn the police. I am not, NOT saying that they would make light the death of a witness trying to help them.

I am pointing out that the police can only do so much to help the witness, and that doesn't include killing those who threaten the witness, which may be the only real way to send a message that witnesses are off limits to friends and family of the criminal. The police will continue to go about their lives while the witness could very well end up dead. So really, can you blame the witnesses?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In another thread on the subject of George Zimmerman, I decided to fact check myself and at this point, I am going to change my perspective somewhat.

I reread Zimmerman's account and according to the transcript, he was asked if he was pursuing and when he said yes, they told him he didn't need to, at which point, he broke it off. Martin then (according to Zimmerman) confronted him on the way back to his vehicle.

To those of you with whom I have engaged in debate on the point of Zimmerman's pursuit of Martin, my apologies. I was mistaken in my info and must change my position in light of what is actually known.

Though we do not have an eyewitness account of the entire event from beginning to end, I believe that there is enough based on the transcript and Zimmerman's account for me to conclude that he broke off pursuit after being told "you don't need to do that" rather than engaging in pursuit after the fact. This of course, significantly alters how one views the physical conflict.

 

[billc]

If more people looked at the testimony, and what was actually said by the various people, there would be less uproar over the verdict.