George Zmmerman trial begins...

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think from a safety perspective for a citizen doing a neighborhood watch that they probably shouldn't get out of there car because they are not trained like you to do more. Whereas you or I have had advanced training. (ie. police academy, specific training, etc.) Your average neighborhood watch person has more than likely had no training and just endangers themselves by getting out of the car. Just a perspective on my part!

 

[billc]

A little more background on Zimmerman...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...dia_lies_have_distorted_a_tragedy_119311.html

This narrative has transformed Zimmerman, a man of racially mixed heritage that included white, Hispanic and black roots (a grandmother who helped raise him had an Afro-Peruvian father), into an honorary white male steeped in white privilege. It has cast him as a virulent racist even though he once had a black business partner, mentored African-American kids, lived in a neighborhood about 20 percent black, and participated in complaints about a white police lieutenant’s son getting away with beating a homeless black man.

This narrative has perpetuated the lie that Zimmerman’s history of calls to the police indicates obsessive racial paranoia. Thus, discussing the verdict on the PBS NewsHour, University of Connecticut professor and New Yorker contributor Jelani Cobb asserted that “Zimmerman had called the police 46 times in previous six years, only for African-Americans, only for African-American men.” Actually, only six calls—two of them about Trayvon Martin—had to do with African-American men. At least three involved complaints about whites; others were about such issues as a fire alarm going off, a reckless driver of unknown race, or an aggressive dog.
In this narrative, even Zimmerman’s concern for a black child—a 2011 call to report a young African-American boy walking unsupervised on a busy street, on which the police record notes, “compl[ainant] concerned for well-being”—has been twisted into crazed racism. Writing on the website of The New Republic, Stanford University law professor Richard Thompson Ford describes Zimmerman as “an edgy basket case” who called 911 about “the suspicious activities of a seven year old black boy.” This slander turns up in other left-of-center sources, such as ThinkProgress.org.

The false narrative also makes it axiomatic that a black man in Zimmerman’s shoes wouldn’t stand a chance—especially if he had shot someone white. Never mind examples to the contrary, such as a 2009 case in Rochester, New York in which a black man, Roderick Scott, shot and killed an unarmed white teenager and was acquitted. Scott, who had caught 17-year-old Christopher Cervini and two other boys breaking into a car, said that the boy charged him and he feared for his life.

 

[ballen0351]

I think from a safety perspective for a citizen doing a neighborhood watch that they probably shouldn't get out of there car because they are not trained like you to do more. Whereas you or I have had advanced training. (ie. police academy, specific training, etc.) Your average neighborhood watch person has more than likely had no training and just endangers themselves by getting out of the car. Just a perspective on my part!

Most of our watch programs the people dont even use cars. They walk the neighborhoods. Its hard to see and hear things when your inside a car.

 

[arnisador]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/15/6-decisions-trayvon_n_3600690.html

This is a piece favorable to TM. I had heard of some of this but not all at once:

Zimmerman had a long history of violence, including a restraining order for domestic violence, felony charges of resisting arrest, and assaulting an officer (the charge was pled down to a misdemeanor and then closed; Zimmerman's dad was a magistrate at the time). He was bounced from a job as a bouncer for being too aggressive with patrons, the New York Daily News reported. And a family member accused him of a pattern of sexual molestation.

 

[arnisador]

http://www.motherjones.com/politics...rman-trayvon-martin?google_editors_picks=true

The wanna-be cop thing is part of what concerns me about his behavior:

As witnesses testified during the trial, Zimmerman had for years pursued an interest in a law enforcement career. At a Florida college in 2010, he earned an A in a criminal-justice class taught by an Army prosecutor whose course work included the state's Stand Your Ground law. That same year, Zimmerman applied to participate in a police ride-along, writing that his motivation was "solidifying my chances for a career in law enforcement." (However, Zimmerman's ability to retain certain law enforcement knowledge apparently vanished after he killed Martin; the self-styled neighborhood watchman, who obsessively called 911 to report suspicious activity, told Fox News' Sean Hannity last summer that he'd never heard of Stand Your Ground.)

The point of the article is that SYG did indeed matter here:

Just because Zimmerman's defense team didn't bring up Stand Your Ground in the trial (more on that below), that doesn't mean the law was irrelevant to the jury's decision. To the contrary, Judge Debra Nelson made clear in the jury instructions that they should consider the law:

If George Zimmerman was not engaged in an unlawful activity and was attacked in any place where he had a right to be, he had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he reasonably believed that it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


​

And consider it they did. According to the most outspoken juror, known only as Juror B-37, Stand Your Ground was key to reaching their verdict. She told CNN's Anderson Cooper in an interview that neither second-degree murder nor manslaughter applied in Zimmerman's case "because of the heat of the moment and the 'stand your ground.' He had a right to defend himself. If he felt threatened that his life was going to be taken away from him or he was going to have bodily harm, he had a right."

(Emphasis added).

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Most of our watch programs the people dont even use cars. They walk the neighborhoods. Its hard to see and hear things when your inside a car.

I think from the perspective of the watcher that they are less safe in that environment unless of course they are in a group.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Where I live we have armed security patrol and a neighborhood watch. However, the neighborhood watch is just everyone in the community. People just on the lookout in general no designations, etc. Nothing official! I would venture that most neighborhood watches are fairly unofficial with a sign posted and that is about it!

 

[billc]

Actually, the author didn't quite get it right. She may have said that in the instructions, but the defense never claimed the right to a SYG pre-trial hearing and only relied on regular self-defense in their defense of Zimmerman. Besides, since Zimmerman was pinned on the ground, SYG did not apply.

 

[arnisador]

The judge seems to have thought differently and she did bring it up, so it did play a role regardless.

 

[MJS]

Actually, I'm the last person anyone could call "anti-gun," but I agree with arni here.

George Zimmerman has proven that he shouldn't be carrying a gun-carrying a gun isn't just a right, it's also a responsibility-one that assumes that the bearer can act with prudence and good judgment. Guilty or not-guilty, George Zimmerman demonstrated amply that he is neither prudent, nor capable of good judgment, and should not be going about armed. Anywhere. Ever.

I've been away from this party for a few days, so forgive me in advance if you already answered this, but how did you come to this conclusion?

 

[ballen0351]

The judge seems to have thought differently and she did bring it up, so it did play a role regardless.

If your pinned to the groung getting pounded in the face every state in the Union would consider that self defense stand your ground or not.

 

[MJS]

No, we were in this case talking about young men making wrong decisions that sometimes eliminate them from the gene pool. That's the Darwin Award.
And no, I do not buy that the 'kid' was scared, frightened or otherwise intimidated by the 'creepy a$$ cracka' following him. He wasn't wearing high heels...he could have run home - that's what scared kids do! Or call the cops.


Seems there is that one little problem in the story:
Zimmermann loses him and next thing they are in a scuffle and Zimmermann is at the bottom.

Exactly! Let's eliminate the middle man here. If TM was that nervous of who was following him, why the hell was he talking to a girl, rather than the cops? Furthermore, if he was that scared, why did he double back and confront GZ? Hell, if he was that scared, one would assume that if he realized that GZ was no longer behind him, that he'd have kept walking in the direction that he was, not turn around, and find out why GZ was behind him.

 

[MJS]

You're a LEO--trained and authorized for this. No problem.

I may be wrong here, but this implies that unless you're a LEO, that nobody should be carrying. OTOH, my personal feeling is, is you're going to carry, then you should be going thru all the required courses, safety, use of force, etc. Thus, in a nutshell, you should be trained.

 

[MJS]

This is just such an interesting situation.


I wouldn't have gotten out of my vehicle to follow Martin. I would have followed in the vehicle from a distance and maintained contact with the dispatcher until the police arrived. I probably would have circled around several times in my vehicle if needed. I know this is what I would have done because I have done the same thing in the past 0n more than a few occcasions. I think that Zimmerman from a surveillance and personal safety point really screwed up and the situation escalated thus ending with Martin's death. Having said that from the evidence it would appear with what we know that Zimmerman did act within the accordance of the law and as such was found not guilty by the jury. Still that does not mean that he isn't and idiot or that I would want him on my neighborhood watch. (I wouldn't) Nor do I think he is a great person to be carrying around a gun based on his past history before the Martin incident and of course with the Martin death. However, legally he is going to get his gun back and be able to carry and as Elder999 pointed out he shall carry a gun in the future. Which brings me at least to a point that while I am a strong advocate for CCW's and the ability to carry there are however some people that should never be allowed to carry a gun or for that matter breed! We all know that this is true!!!

Nice post Brian, and this is just the reason why I don't get involved in situations. Sure, many times, I've called the cops to report things and I've been a good witness, but unless it's a friend or family member, I'm not going to take the risk of getting involved, and instead, have the parties suddenly turn on me. This is why I've been saying through out this thread, that I feel its important to know exactly what a neighborhood watch person can/cannot do.

 

[MJS]

I think from the perspective of the watcher that they are less safe in that environment unless of course they are in a group.

Yup, and as I said earlier, in my area, I've seen signs in various neighborhoods that say they're part of a NW program, but I've never seen anyone physically walking. I think instead, it's a matter of everyone in the neighborhood just looking out for each other. Everyone doing their part from the confines of their home, but not actually patrolling the area.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I may be wrong here, but this implies that unless you're a LEO, that nobody should be carrying. OTOH, my personal feeling is, is you're going to carry, then you should be going thru all the required courses, safety, use of force, etc. Thus, in a nutshell, you should be trained.

Very true. Yet some States training is sorely lacking. So badly in fact that their might not be any training at all. However, most States due have some minimal standard! Probably should be more though!

 

[ballen0351]

Yup, and as I said earlier, in my area, I've seen signs in various neighborhoods that say they're part of a NW program, but I've never seen anyone physically walking. I think instead, it's a matter of everyone in the neighborhood just looking out for each other. Everyone doing their part from the confines of their home, but not actually patrolling the area.

Just depends where you are I guess. Here they walk. Not so much now when its still 90 degrees at midnight and not so much in winter when it's freezing but they do walk around. They usually carry a cell phone and video camera also. Sad thing is that's the good neighborhoods where nothing happens. In the bad neighborhoods nobody cares. We had a running gun battle yesterday broad daylight tons of people were out and we got no witnesses willing to come forward. The whole thing was on tape from our security cameras so we know it happened and we know everyone saw it but "I didn't see s@&t". Is the name of the game. Go figure.

 

[MJS]

Very true. Yet some States training is sorely lacking. So badly in fact that their might not be any training at all. However, most States due have some minimal standard! Probably should be more though!

Wow. Well, if that is the case, that's pretty scary, since that means we have a lot of people out there, carrying, and they don't have the proper training or any at all. I can't speak for other states, but here in CT, especially after Sandy Hook, things seem much more strict than before.

 

[ballen0351]

Wow. Well, if that is the case, that's pretty scary, since that means we have a lot of people out there, carrying, and they don't have the proper training or any at all. I can't speak for other states, but here in CT, especially after Sandy Hook, things seem much more strict than before.

Why is it scary? The people legally carrying guns are not the ones commiting crimes. As a cop I wish more people would carry guns. Its your right so exercise it.

 

[MJS]

Just depends where you are I guess. Here they walk. Not so much now when its still 90 degrees at midnight and not so much in winter when it's freezing but they do walk around. They usually carry a cell phone and video camera also. Sad thing is that's the good neighborhoods where nothing happens. In the bad neighborhoods nobody cares. We had a running gun battle yesterday broad daylight tons of people were out and we got no witnesses willing to come forward. The whole thing was on tape from our security cameras so we know it happened and we know everyone saw it but "I didn't see s@&t". Is the name of the game. Go figure.

I envision (and I might be a bit off) the average NW, to be just as you describe, or similar to the Guardian Angels.

As for the other....sad isn't it? People are paralyzed by fear from the bad guys, that they could be standing 2 feet away from the guy who got shot, but somehow, they didn't see ****.