Gays in the MA's

[navyvetcv60]

There were a few reports to the mod team about the use of the word "queer" in this thread.

We're discussing the matter.

In the mean time, carry on with the discussion but please keep it polite and respectful.

- Carol Kaur
- MT Sr. Moderator

During the coarse of this thread I've seen another use the same word, Tellner, why no out cry when he used the word, could it be that a lot here are intolerant of views that are conservative??
Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads

And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.

 

[navyvetcv60]

Hmm, first "macho" and "gay" aren't necessarily exclusive. Far from it. Consider Sparta and Ernst Rohm just to start with.

I don't know if there are any openly gay students currently. Most people don't talk about sexuality very much in class. There have been gay, lesbian and bisexual students in the past. I've trained in schools where the teacher was an out lesbian. When we taught women's self defense there were plenty of bi and lesbian students and the occasional transitioning male to female. I'm sure there have been others I don't know about. It isn't relevant to class and would be rude to ask.

How do I feel about it? It doesn't matter at all. Sometimes queer students have particular personal issues that affect their training in the same way that anyone can. It's either a big deal or not depending on whether it interferes with class. The same can be said for all people.

One of the usual unspoken questions in discussions like this is "Do you get weirded out working with someone who likes other dudes (or chicks if you're a woman)?" Hiding behind that are "What if I'm in close physical contact with someone who might think I'm hot?" and "Will he do something to me?" and "Will people think I'm gay if I work out with him or change in the same locker room?"

My answers are "So what?", "No", "So what?" and "Nobody worth knowing."

Women working in predominantly male schools have to deal with this sort of thing all the time, and they've got the whole size, strength and social expectations things working against them. They manage. You can, too. Speaking of women, I've found that in general they deal with lesbians in class matter of factly without the drama that gay men in a group of straight men engender (so to speak).

Notice the 3rd paragraph.
Tellner, not picking on you just wanted to make a point.

 

[tellner]

Why no outcry? Well, "queer" is a very slippery term that can be an insult or not depending on context and who is saying it. Used by an unfriendly person as an insult it means one thing. Used by people who are basically friendly or sympathetic it is an accepted shorthand for "Homosexual men, lesbians, bisexuals, the transgendered, cross-dressing heterosexuals, sometimes BDSM afficionados and anyone whose baseline sexuality is considered outside the mainstream".

Terms like "queer-friendly" or "genderqueer" are accepted within that broad spectrum. Their use is not considered insulting or offensive by the people to whom they refer. "To hell with the damned queers" is a much different proposition than "...anyone who is queer-positive has had to grapple with..." Given the tenor of my postings pretty much anyone covered by the term would say that it's an acceptable use of the word.

Some Black people (for instance) use terms for members of their ethnicity which would cause them to consider violence if uttered by someone not of African descent. At least a couple of those trapped by MT's profanity filter. By contrast, the use of "queer" in a positive or inclusive manner by conventional (boring) straight people is often considered perfectly fine and unobjectionable by members of that list of diverse sexualities. It's a single syllable that neatly encapsulates a range of terms that would otherwise make conversation on the topic impossible.

In other words, navyvet, you aren't going to get a cheap easy score off of this one. I'm being careful to use the term in a way which is generally considered acceptable and polite by members of the large group to which it refers.

 

[grydth]

During the coarse of this thread I've seen another use the same word, Tellner, why no out cry when he used the word, could it be that a lot here are intolerant of views that are conservative??
Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads

And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.

With respect to "the word"........ you could also point out that gay people themselves have used it for quite some time. But so have those that hate them. Maybe you should not expect the moderators to try and figure out your intent.

I despise Politikal Korrectness, its simply fascism and mind control with a far left slant. Tossing that aside, though, using "the word" probably detracts from the point(s) you are trying to make... and from a standpoint of effective communications and productive debate - why use it?

 

[Drac]

Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things

A very intellegent question...

 

[elder999]

Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads

And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.

..


You could be right that a majority of people here lean to the left, but there are those who get along quite well expressing a broad spectrum of conservative viewpoints in a sharing, rather than hostile or offensive manner. For myself, while many would think of me as "left-leaning," I should point out that not only are most of my viewpoints independent of ideology-as in being pro-choice (it's not much business of mine) and anti-gun control (.....from my cold, dead hand)...back in New York, I was a registered Republican. I voted for George HW Bush-he really pissed me off, though, and along the way changed my point of view about how a few things are done in this country, I still contribute to both the Democratic and Republican party-if it's good enough for major corporations, it's good enough for me. (Don't ask why; it's a topic for another thread....) I'm no longer registered with either party, though most people think I'm some sort of libertarian milleniallist who lives in a bunker waiting for the inevitable downslide into total chaos.....maybe I am.

As for "the word,"while I'm not on your side, I already posted that I could understand your confusion: heck, my daughter's a lesbian, and she calls herself a variety of things that some might find offensive, and I find a bit confusing. I find the same thing hanging out with my gay friends, colleagues and students-male and female-so I just stick to "gay," which, however "grossly misused,"( and I'd like to know what that means as well) seems to be safe enough, and what most of those "hitting for the other team" (is THAT offensive?) seem to want to be called, most of the time.

And, see Tellner's post on the use of "the word"; it can and has been used for a variety of people across the sexual spectrum,including many who are otherwise heterosexual. That's not how you used it, though, and when you use it in such a general, plural sense, it can only be construed as a perjorative against a whole class of people who are doing nothing to harm you, as you've sort of pointed out.

Your continued use of the words "life style," as in "that life style," and "force me to accept their life style" (what exactly does that mean, anyway? Is this a fear of attempted forced "conversion to perversion" :lol: ) is indicative of a kind of blindered intolerance as well, and somewhat offensive. I don't know how many of the openly (and perhaps not so openly ) gay people you've offended here, because only one has contributed to this thread, AFAIK, but I'm fairly certain that being gay is not a "life style," though it can be accompanied by a certain life style. Being gay is usually something a person is born with-promiscuity is a "life style," for example,and a whole other topic.

BTW, "navyvet," odds are good you showered with a gay man or three in the Navy, and probably rolled or sparred with someone who's gay in your martial arts class, but keeping it quiet for fear of the bigotry of those like yourself.

 

[Drac]

..BTW, "navyvet," odds are good you showered with a gay man or three in the Navy, and probably rolled or sparred with someone who's gay in your martial arts class, but keeping it quiet for fear of the bigotry of those like yourself.

Bravo well said...

 

[gkygrl]

This is an important point. I can understand pairing according to rank, but even then, you sometimes should train with partners above and below your level. If your instructor doesn't EVER pair you with someone else to train with, you're losing out. I understand it's only been 5 weeks since you started, but keep it in mind as time goes on and you progress. It's one thing to have a regular training partner, it's another to have only ONE training partner.

We are typically paired with men and higher rank. But for particular ground survival exercises that involved a straddling position ... we were paired up by gender by the Grand Master that was teaching us that particular exercise.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

During the coarse of this thread I've seen another use the same word, Tellner, why no out cry when he used the word, could it be that a lot here are intolerant of views that are conservative??
Please be honest, I've noticed a tolerance to the left and a intolerance to the right on these threads

And why so sensitive to the word "Queer" this has been a common term for that life style for decades. The term "Gay" is drastically misused.

It's being discussed, and the use is considered offensive by some therefore we are not allowing it's use in certain contexts.


Begin Blanket Statement

If you don't like the political atmosphere here, you are welcome to frequent other sites which might be better suited to your views, and join those who we've ejected because we wouldn't let them swear/libel/defame/bully etc. This site is intended to be a friendly one, and not one for macho madness or dick measuring.

This site's staff either now or in the past has included at least 2 people that I know of who were involved in same-sex relations. I know of 10 other members as well over the years who have mentioned that fact to me, usually after we've banned some closed minded hate spewing bigot. Site Staff has also included every major ethnic group including white, black, asian and indian, as well as Christians, Jews, Muslims and Pagans. Every political party in the US is in the mix, including the Constitution party, Right To Life, Green, Libertarian, and the main ones.

These people are all my friends, and this site will be one that welcomes them all. If you have a paranoia about any of these groups, feel the need to lash out at them and make them feel unwelcome here, then you'll find yourself the unwelcome one.

It's not "political correctness", it's manners and respect. Something good martial arts training and personal development should include.

End Blanket Statement.

 

[gkygrl]

I love sexist, racist, anti-gay, white, black, mexican, women, men, religious, moral, political.... jokes.

For example I can belive that the sexes are not equal, but that does not make me a sexist...

I find the whole offense-sensitivity and P.C. crap offending.

DArnold -- I don't get your answer .... you find offense-sensitivity and P.C crap offensive? And you are not a sexist??? Who are you trying to kid?

What are you then -- and loving the jokes and just fueling them just fuels hate in different sectors.

With all due respect, you sound to me like one of those people sitting on the fence who can't be bothered.

 

[gkygrl]

..


Your continued use of the words "life style," as in "that life style," and "force me to accept their life style" (what exactly does that mean, anyway? Is this a fear of attempted forced "conversion to perversion" :lol: ) is indicative of a kind of blindered intolerance as well, and somewhat offensive. I don't know how many of the openly (and perhaps not so openly ) gay people you've offended here, because only one has contributed to this thread, AFAIK, but I'm fairly certain that being gay is not a "life style," though it can be accompanied by a certain life style. Being gay is usually something a person is born with-promiscuity is a "life style," for example,and a whole other topic.

Being Gay is definitely not a "lifestyle" -- a "lifestyle" is something that involves choice ... being gay is not a choice (it's the way a person is "wired"). I would never have chosen to be gay and walk against the tide. Heck, what girl does not dream of a nice fancy wedding being given away by her Dad, etc. It took me a long time (and 2 fiances - God bless them) to really understand and accept what being Gay was. I am not afraid to share here -- I've made some nice friends and this is a safe place.

Saying being Gay is a lifestyle is like saying being born in France is a lifestyle. It's the way things are, have always been, and will always be.

 

[navyvetcv60]

It's being discussed, and the use is considered offensive by some therefore we are not allowing it's use in certain contexts.


Begin Blanket Statement

If you don't like the political atmosphere here, you are welcome to frequent other sites which might be better suited to your views, and join those who we've ejected because we wouldn't let them swear/libel/defame/bully etc. This site is intended to be a friendly one, and not one for macho madness or dick measuring.

This site's staff either now or in the past has included at least 2 people that I know of who were involved in same-sex relations. I know of 10 other members as well over the years who have mentioned that fact to me, usually after we've banned some closed minded hate spewing bigot. Site Staff has also included every major ethnic group including white, black, asian and indian, as well as Christians, Jews, Muslims and Pagans. Every political party in the US is in the mix, including the Constitution party, Right To Life, Green, Libertarian, and the main ones.

These people are all my friends, and this site will be one that welcomes them all. If you have a paranoia about any of these groups, feel the need to lash out at them and make them feel unwelcome here, then you'll find yourself the unwelcome one.

It's not "political correctness", it's manners and respect. Something good martial arts training and personal development should include.

End Blanket Statement.

How do I feel about it? It doesn't matter at all. Sometimes queer students have particular personal issues that affect their training in the same way that anyone can. It's either a big deal or not depending on whether it interferes with class. The same can be said for all people.

This was used in the contexts of alternative lifestyles, read tellners (Complete) post again.
Why don't the mod's just ban the word then? Because it wouldn't be fair for some to use the word, much like some can use the "N" word and some can't in this world.

As far as everything else you wrote,Bob, do what you gotta do, I've never singled out anybody on these threads, i don't know of anybodies sexual preference, I've been called names, been cursed at, people's tried to belittle me all on these boards, did those people get reprimanded by the Mod's ? I didn't WHINE to ANYBODY about any of it, so who knows, When i 1st started reading the threads on this forum i really thought it was a good place for free thought (as long as people did not get singled out) well i was wrong. If your political ideologies are different from the majority, then yours needs to be dampened. If your with the majority, then say what the hell you feel.

 

[MJS]

It seems that Bobs message wasn't clear to some, so I'll be a bit more blunt.

There are many words used to describe things, some more fitting than others. If someone can't use a more polite word to describe what they want to say, then perhaps nothing should be said at all.

This forums rules are in place for everyone, not a select few. One thing to keep in mind, is that like a police officer, the mods of this forum can't be everywhere all the time. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the rules here. If not, I suggest reading up on them, as they can be found in a link at the top of the page. If someone is having a problem with a member or a post, there is a protocol to follow, which is to report the post and let the mods deal with it. It is also not policy to discuss any actions that have been taken with members, with other members of the forum.

This forum is probably one of the most fair ones out there, but as its been said by Bob...if people do not like certain things here, you're welcome to frequent those sites that share your views.

So..before this thread gets closed, lets return to the discussion at hand, and attempt to choose our wording so as to not offend anyone.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin

 

[geezer]

Have any of you noticed that those on one side of this debate tend to be well reasoned and articulate, while the opposing side seems barely literate and lacking a command of basic syntax and grammar? Or, is this just my biased nature erupting again?

 

[elder999]

Have any of you noticed that those on one side of this debate tend to be well reasoned and articulate, while the opposing side seems barely literate and lacking a command of basic syntax and grammar? Or, is this just my biased nature erupting again?

There is no debate-in terms of your original post, every poster-man, woman, gay or straight-has said it doesn't make any difference....

....maybe "some" of them are lying, though. :lol:

 

[navyvetcv60]

Have any of you noticed that those on one side of this debate tend to be well reasoned and articulate, while the opposing side seems barely literate and lacking a command of basic syntax and grammar? Or, is this just my biased nature erupting again?

Isn't it great to have carte blanche with regards as to what you say to people.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Isn't it great to have carte blanche with regards as to what you say to people.

Yes, because we feed neo-cons to neo-leos and actively seek out such views as yours for active termination.
/sarcasm


We have posted rules
If you aren't going to follow them, then leave.
If your intent is to disrupt us, insult us, bash us, slam us, you're time here will be short.
There is a big difference between saying "Those queers there" and "Did anyone watch "Queer Eye last night?"
If you're too uneducated to understand the difference, I suggest education.

Since we're at the point of "2x4 to the head" bluntness, I will be so.
Using the word "queer" to refer to those involved in same-gender relationships is not acceptable.
..Unless you are in fact so.
....and probably not even then.

Using it in a scholastic or historical context, is acceptable.


We welcome polite debate and intelligent discourse, not bigoted or antiquated thinking.

Before you earn a ban, you might wish to review those rules.

End of discussion.

 

[newGuy12]

Does this thread really mean anything except for those that are like voltures about certain things

Oh, Yes Sir, this has been shown to be meaningless now. There is no such putting down people in the Dojang -- not for long, not for long.

But yet we go on with this thread? Why? Because new ideas keep coming up, new matters peripheral to the original post. The original post, as I see it, has now been addressed, and I think its false.

What about acceptance of others in life OUTSIDE of the Dojang? This is a bigger thing.

I will say that I have read some Vedic book, the Bhagavad-Gita. I will not go in to how I came across this, except to say that the people who were involved would serve very tasty food, without asking any money, and I had some prior experience with some ha-tha yoga poses which had a big effect on me, so my curiosity was there to investigate about the culture of India.

In this book it was said something like this: "The Guru does not discriminate between a dog, a beggar, and a yogi." That means -- all of the living creatures are of value, not only the humans. This is an example of very high thinking, the thoughts of One Who Knows the Truth.

I have a VERY SMALL aptitude for spiritual things, but this particular book has been around for a LONG TIME, so that matters.

Now, I watch the movie "Best of the Best", and there is some character in there who is a "redneck guy". He shows no respect for others. He even kicks his opponent during the bowing. Most people have contempt for this character, but I can see a certain loveliness about him. I can see value in this character.

When someone says, "Oh -- you are intolerant of <insert_some_kind_of_label_here> and you are less than us! You suck!"

That is the same thing -- it is intolerance itself.

The highest path is to TRY to be accepting of all -- better yet, to see the true value in all. Not easy to do, right?

And yes, there ARE some people who have to be locked up in jail, BECAUSE THEY MEAN TO DO US HARM. But that is a special (corner) case.

If this sounds "high and mighty", haha, I'll let you know that I am NOT the kind of person to "preach" to people. I have enough trouble to try to negotiate life day to day myself.

 

[shesulsa]

Some people believe the right to free speech is granted in private arenas. Not necessarily so.

Some people equate the right to free speech with the right to say whatever the **** they want, use whatever term they want whenever and wherever they want with reckless abandon.

Not so.

That's like a teenager using a $500 cel phone to hammer a nail because it's his phone and it's his right to do with it as he pleases. Sure it is - but this doesn't make a lot of sense, is inefficient and just plain ignorant.

What an abuse of a perfectly good electronic device. If only some folks would not abuse their rights to abuse others.

 

[newGuy12]

Some people believe the right to free speech is granted in private arenas. Not necessarily so.

No, and this is not what I meant.