Funny vs Racist

[Bester]

Why is it ok for members of non-white ethnic groups to make racist jokes, and it is "funny", but if a white does it, it is "racist" and "bigoted"?

The first comic ran in our local paper. It is deemed "funny".

If the second comic had been sent in, how many papers would have ran it, and of those who did, who many would be issuing apologies, pulling future strips, etc?

 

[Simon Curran]

Good point.

As far as I am concerned (and by the way I am a white male in the under 35 years age group) equality should be just that, not one rule for one section of society and another rule the rest.

 

[Cryozombie]

Now now,

Dont start that line of logical thinking. I tried it with the Gay issue and bt beaten down by forum members with baseball bats for my "intolerance"

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Well, humor is sometimes tricky.

When we see a traditionally "weaker" or "underpriveledged" group critiquing an "established" or "in power" one, it tickles something in our heads. Thus the humor.

EX.: one of my favorite columnists was writing about men and women's clothing. Why is it OK for women to dress like men, wear business suits, and we think they look "professional" or "sharp", but when a man wears a dress, even very cosmopolitan folks can burst out laughing?

 

[rmcrobertson]

At the risk of mentioning reality--apparently this, "beat down," some folks--individuals do not get to decide what words and images mean, and idealistic notions about meanings pretty much don't have anything to do with it.

In other words, "men make history, but they do not make it from materials of their own choosing." What Marx had in mind was that you can assemble whatever words, actions, etc., that you like--but their identity, and their meaning, are determined before you get there.

Personally, both versions of the cartoon are kinda dumb. (Though I doubt it was black folks who invented, say, power-walking. Face it...in some ways, "white," people do do this kinda goofy-looking stuff more often.) But both versions appear in a society with a certain kind of history that includes events like slavery and lynching (yes yes yes, those libs--always wanting the White Man to apologize, but we're simply talking about why words mean what they mean here); that includes movies like, "Birth of a Nation," and characters like Stepn Fetchit; that includes a very long line of particular kinds of jokes; that continues to maintain all sorts of racial discriminations.

Black people were/are primarily treated as objects by that history and in some ways by present culture; white men were/are treated primarily as subjects--actors, if you like. So, you may not like the cartoon because it does exactly what Kipling's "White Man's Burden," goofy poem does--it reminds you that you are in fact being watched by what you've alwayas thought of as the Other, that you aren't the only one doing the looking and the measuring.

The two cartoons aren't symmetrical, in other words, because "black," and "white," don't mean the same things in this culture.

The last couple decades have seen the rise of a lotta these, "reverse discrimination," arguments--which are really just backlash against civil rights for everybody. You aren't being discriminated against because you're, "white," mostly (and the talk show hosts like Leykis who claim that you are help distract you from reality...that's why they're there), but because you're working class, or you're poor, or you belong to one ethnic minority or another (like, say, Lithuanian), or because EVERYBODY's gettting screwed, and "reverse discrimination," provides a convenient excuse.

Or, you may FEEL discriminated against because your job's threatened by economic developments, or your family's threatened by economic pressures, or because you have some problems with women's changing roles, or even because you have some leftover ugliness from childhood sitting around gathering dust in the back of your head.
While there may be individual cases of dumbass behavior that single you out because you're, "white," there simply isn't anything systematic going on. And until, say, the Nation of Islam takes over a state, loses its collective mind, starts a century-long program of apartheid, and creates an extended history of discriminatory images, stories, jokes, etc., there won't be.

Well, you asked.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Uh. Was there a point to those cartoons, other than stupid people who run in the snow/ice/cold? Guess I'm colorblind.

 

[MA-Caver]

I find myself at times puzzled by this "reversed racism". A few nights ago I was watching on Comedy Central the HBO Chris Rock stand up (uncensored). He makes for a very funny and insightful show but doesn't address the issue of reverse racism, which I would like for him and other comedians of color to do.
He did make a differential between the Black man and N-----s, see, I can't even say it here in fear of pissing someone off and being damned as a racist, which I'm not. He must've said the "N" word about a hundred times in 60 minutes, but of course he can say that because he's black and nobody is going to critique him of it black or white. If it was George Carlin or Robin Williams then their hotel rooms would've been mobbed and they'd probably start receiving death threats.
True during the terrible years of slavery whites casually referred to the black slaves as "N's", and for years afterwards until white kids in non-segregated schools got the crap beaten out of them for tossing that word around, then the kids grew up knowing it was not the best of ideas. But blacks still refer to themselves as "N's".
Chris Rock made a seperation of that. Differentiating with (comic's exaggerations) how Black people can't own anything nice in the hood because the N's will get it all. Saying that if a Black person wants to hide something from N's that might break into their house then they should hide it all in books. "Books are a N's kryptonite, because they can't read and don't like to read. So if you got money then hide it in your books." And so forth.
If a white comedian was to make those same jokes would it be funny? Probably so... if racists heard them. A white comedian making those jokes would be branded as a racist. Chris Rock, Chris Tucker, Eddie Murphy, Martin Lawrence, Sinbad, and a four (or more) dozen other black comedians can get away with this. The reasons why isn't clear. You watch Def Comedy Jam and you'll get the picture.
It's the same terminology isn't it? Same derogatory moniker for uneducated, ignorant, criminally inclined, lazy, welfare living mo-fo. Hmm, I know of some white trailer trash folk that could fit that description to a T. Why don't we be calling them N's?? We don't, because we have a seperate word for them... Rednecks!
Bill Cosby is probably one of the few black comedians that I know of that doesn't use the N-word. In fact many of you I'm sure remember the back-lash he got for dissin' on the (black) people who fit in the aforementioned description.

Shown here from dictionary.com
nig·ger Pronunciation Key (ngr)
n. Offensive Slang
1. Used as a disparaging term for a Black person: “You can only be destroyed by believing that you really are what the white world calls a ******” (James Baldwin).
2. Used as a disparaging term for a member of any dark-skinned people.
3. Used as a disparaging term for a member of any socially, economically, or politically deprived group of people: “Gun owners are the new ******s... of society” (John Aquilino).

I dunno about gun owners but I do know that now-a-days the third definition does and should apply and the first two be removed. Notice that it (the 3rd definition) does not make that differential as regards to race or skin-color.
So where to draw the line?
The comic strip shown in the initial post is well known for it's representation of the "angry" black man. In it's own way it's racist (to me anyway). And it gets away with it.
We as a society must continue to learn the lessons taught by the Civil Rights Movement (the leaders) in the late 60's. I was watching PBS last night as it examined Bobby Kennedy. If he hadn't been assasinated he would've made (IMO) remarkable strides in removing the stigma of racism. It was remarkable to see the film footage of the people that came to hear him speak and those that lined up along the railroad tracks to honor him as the funeral train passed. Literally there were people (well) mixed of different colors/races. Blacks, whites and hispanics stood side by side and not in small groups of their own color. Those images to me spoke volumes of what Robert Kennedy was trying to achieve and did achieve for the brief period of his presidential run/campaign and his time as Senator for New Yawk.
It's possible he was assasinated because of the success he was beginning to make. He was perceived as a threat to White America. Ironic since he was about as white as you can get; rich, affluent, from a powerful American family with business and political ties.
It would seem that racism is being eradicated, at least I see it that way. Black mayors, black Supreme Court Justices, Black 4 star generals in the military, wildly successful black entertainers that cater to all races, lawyers, doctors with their own firms and so forth. They have affirmative action so at least they're given a better chance at a good job than their white counterparts. ... notice I didn't use the term... competitors.
But it's still not enough it seems. Well to do blacks are now referred to as "assimulated". Why? Because they got off their asses and worked hard at their studies in college and on their jobs to get where they're at? I've heard well to do blacks talk about the "bucket of crabs" syndrome and how they had to break free of that.

Dunno about the rest of the world. But we as Americans are gonna have to get rid of it totally, completely if we are going to surivive as a nation that touts freedom for all men. The change is happening, but not fast enough I think. The rift that seperated us in the past has just barely begun to heal over. But like a newly scabbed wound, it's fragile at best and easy to tear-open again to bleed out the life's blood and future of this country, the American youth.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Caver said (in part): "It's possible he was assasinated because of the success he was beginning to make. He was perceived as a threat to White America. Ironic since he was about as white as you can get; rich, affluent, from a powerful American family with business and political ties. "

Ah - but he was an Eastern Irish Catholic (horrors!) Same for his brother. People can't stand it when they see people they assume to be less than they are succeed.

As to using the 'n' word. I'm sure that where you grew up it was a daily occurrence, as it was for me, to hear your black friends address each other in that manner. I don't think I'd ever call any of my friends by that epithet, nor would they stoop to using the 'popular' terms of denigration for Jews toward me. Those who did call me - and them - those things were usually white. Forget the rest of the ethnic groups to which they belonged. And where are those name callers now? I have no idea. However, one of my black friends is a judge. Her brother is an attorney. Another works with the disadvantaged in our hometown, and he still lives in the projects despite having gone to college and "bettered" himself. I could go on -- and won't. You get the point.

A racist is nothing more than a bully who can't think of anything more damaging to say to someone than calling him out because of his skin color, beliefs, or ethnic background. And -- a bully is just a scared, small person who needs to aggrandize himself to himself. But you know that.

 

[Bester]

Racist - White Power
Not Racist - Black Power

Sexist - Male
Not Sexist - Female

Bigoted - "Those Damn Indians"
Not Bigoted - "Those Damn Whites"


Racist/Bigoted/Sexist
- National Association for the Advancement of White People
- White Pride Day
- Not hiring a lesser qualified minority

Not Racist/Bigoted/Sexist
- National Association for the Advancement of Colored People
- Black Pride Week
- Skiping over a fully qualified and experenced white male to hire an inexperienced and under or non qualified minority.


Bigots:
- Archie Bunker
- Ralph Kramden
- Anyone who takes pride in Confederate History

Not Bigots:
- Dave Chapelle
- Fred Sanford
- Anyone who bashes Confederate History

Then, we come to this enlightened view of the US: http://www.tremble.com/scribblins/images/us_of_ra.gif

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. One sign that things are not symmetrical across the color line is that with the possible exception of Jeff Foxworthy--who doesn't do "race," jokes, but "class," jokes--there are no "white," comics who do race jokes who are remotely as funny as Chappell and Richard Pryor, and there haven't been for quite a while.

2. "Fred Sanford," Redd Foxx's character, originated as a deliberate weird twin to Archie Bunker. At the time that the show was popular, all the discussions centered around the idea that he was indeed a racist--and there were several shows in which his son, much like Meathead, tried to argue with him about it. And race was never openly part of "The Honeymooners." If you don't wanna look at his5tory, would you mind at least getting the pop culture straight?

3. "Black Pride," and groups like the Panthers, have repeatedly been critiqued for the attitude towards women. You might want to try actually reading some of the dreaded leftist stuff.

4. No, not every Civil War reenactor or patron of Johhny Reb's belongs to the Klan. But "White Pride," and the Confederate flag tend to be associated with racism because of a century or so's worth of assorted groups of marching yahoos waving that flag and screaming their pointy little heads off about black people, about race-mixing, about integration--in short, because of all their hatred for social progress. Try getting on the National Socialism website, and see for yourself.

5. As always, it'd be nice to see some actual facts to support the claims about the unfairness of affirmative action. But then, it's also be nice to see an awareness of history and contemporary reality, rather than the sorts of perfervid hysterics we get from the likes of Michael Savage.

 

[MA-Caver]

As to using the 'n' word. I'm sure that where you grew up it was a daily occurrence, as it was for me, to hear your black friends address each other in that manner. I don't think I'd ever call any of my friends by that epithet, nor would they stoop to using the 'popular' terms of denigration for Jews toward me. Those who did call me - and them - those things were usually white. Forget the rest of the ethnic groups to which they belonged. And where are those name callers now? I have no idea. However, one of my black friends is a judge. Her brother is an attorney. Another works with the disadvantaged in our hometown, and he still lives in the projects despite having gone to college and "bettered" himself. I could go on -- and won't. You get the point.

Actually it wasn't a daily occurance except when it was my white friends speaking candidly about those "N's" whenever they weren't around, or when a black student and a white student were about to get into a fight at the school or anywhere else for that matter and the red-necked white boy would be calling out "ya Ngr!" and all that. Blacks, in my experience didn't start calling each other Ngr until the late 80's and 90's. Understand that I grew up in Nawrthrn Virginya the first ten years of my life, Middle Tennahsea for my teen-aged years and in Texhus during my mid-twenties. In Virginia I was raised in a predominate white neighborhood. I scarely remember any blacks at all at my elem. school. In Tennessee, suddenly I was thrust right into the middle of a heavily intigrated school and the culture shock of it was ... overwhelming to say the least. I was, for a time very bigoted and racist.
It was Texas (and Washington D.C. for my college years) that I learned to drop the stupid s*** and actually started looking at people for what they had done (good or bad) as individuals and not at what their race was. By then I had started getting screwed over by white guys and (ironically??) was being cared for and helped by blacks and hispanics. Half the guys in the recovery center for alcohol/drug-addiction I was admitted in, were black and I got along better with them than I did with some of the white guys. Also in fact one of the great loves of my life was a first-generation American born Hispanic (beeutiful) girl. As well as one of my first Martial Arts teachers was a black guy who held a brown belt in karate (not sure which Karate though :asian: ) He was teaching me how to defend myself from those (his words) "Ngrs that wanted to kill a white boy because they was white." It was a transitional time and phase for me that enabled me to grow as a human being and to see past the skin-tonal qualities of a person who would be my friend. For that I am grateful to no end.

A racist is nothing more than a bully who can't think of anything more damaging to say to someone than calling him out because of his skin color, beliefs, or ethnic background. And -- a bully is just a scared, small person who needs to aggrandize himself to himself. But you know that.

Well, not all bullies I've ever known were small, but I know what you meant. Small in character and inner-self-esteem. A lot of bullies I came to know (later) came from abusive homes and thus as any child needs to do... vented his fear, frustration, hatered, anger, pain on anyone who wouldn't strike back... like he(/she) failed to do when they were being "bullied" at home.

I still see racism has always begun at home. Parents very often set the tone to the children on how they should view/treat others of different races. They'll either continue to carry this view point to adult-hood and pass it along to their own children, OR (like moi) have a series of (or even a singular) life changing events that forever alter their ideals and views of what constitutes a human being.
Desegregation of schools and public places only helped a little. In many ways it caused racism to grow. Both in Tennessee and Texas a lot of the fights (I saw in school) that went on were rarely between two students of the same race, and the cause of the fight was racial in some form or another. This was of course during the 70's and 80's. I would like to think that the desegregation began to bear (positive) fruit during the late 80's to the 90's and today.
But racism is still there, just not as strong. At least this is what I'm seeing.

 

[Darksoul]

-Question: why do we need to make racial jokes at all? I would say that people need to be able to laugh at themselves, but at what expense? Is that all comedy has to offer now, jokes about other people?


A---)

 

[MA-Caver]

-Question: why do we need to make racial jokes at all? I would say that people need to be able to laugh at themselves, but at what expense? Is that all comedy has to offer now, jokes about other people?

A---)

Comedy has always been about joke about other people. Yes they do poke fun at themselves (Rodney "No Respect" Dangerfield is an excellent example) but as George Carlin puts it... "Comedy, a joke as it were, is an exaggeration of a fact. That's what makes it funny the exaggeration. We blow it all out of proportion so it seems little less than real."

Racial jokes as I understand it are intended to ease the hatered by making one see the humor in whatever a particular minority/race says or does. Black people make fun of white people and vice versa, why? To ease the tension. Laughter eases tension. You get someone who's pissed off at you or someone else to laugh it eases their desire to want to beat the living crap outta you. True this doesn't always work, sometimes it will only make the situation worse, particularly the person/race who is being the butt of the joke.
Still, when same race people joke about themselves it gives them an opportunity to laugh at themselves.
Comedians as of late are beginning to see their value as social teachers, if they can put across a subtle but well intended message across by wrapping it all up in a string or monolouge of jokes people are going to listen and the message is going to sink in. Popular college professors are popular because every-now-and again they're able to toss in a joke in between their discourses on whatever subject they're lecturing about. People pay more attention when you're making them laugh. Producing a strong emotional effect, preferably a positive one. But producing negative emotional responses does have it's uses. Hitler found that out early in 1935.
Not all jokes are about people. But man/people/humans seem to like laughing at each other and ourselves.
Why racist jokes work could be the simple fact of not understanding or being afraid or simple hatred of that particular race. Self-racist jokes are probably motivated by it's something to relate to, or as I stated earlier, to tell a message.

As with all things that come out of a person's mouth... it is the intent of what they say that's more important than what they say.

 

[Bester]

1. One sign that things are not symmetrical across the color line is that with the possible exception of Jeff Foxworthy--who doesn't do "race," jokes, but "class," jokes--there are no "white," comics who do race jokes who are remotely as funny as Chappell and Richard Pryor, and there haven't been for quite a while.

If 1 is ok, then the other should be. Being "Funny" is not part of the argument, as "humor" is personal.

2. "Fred Sanford," Redd Foxx's character, originated as a deliberate weird twin to Archie Bunker. At the time that the show was popular, all the discussions centered around the idea that he was indeed a racist--and there were several shows in which his son, much like Meathead, tried to argue with him about it. And race was never openly part of "The Honeymooners." If you don't wanna look at his5tory, would you mind at least getting the pop culture straight?

The sample is small, the scope large. They are examples. I did not realize a complete reference list was required.

3. "Black Pride," and groups like the Panthers, have repeatedly been critiqued for the attitude towards women. You might want to try actually reading some of the dreaded leftist stuff.

So, it's ok IF is doesn't treat women bad them. Gotcha Doc.

4. No, not every Civil War reenactor or patron of Johhny Reb's belongs to the Klan. But "White Pride," and the Confederate flag tend to be associated with racism because of a century or so's worth of assorted groups of marching yahoos waving that flag and screaming their pointy little heads off about black people, about race-mixing, about integration--in short, because of all their hatred for social progress. Try getting on the National Socialism website, and see for yourself.[/quote

An so do a dozen other symbols, yet you seem to pick and choose which are ok in your world, and damn all others who disagree.

5. As always, it'd be nice to see some actual facts to support the claims about the unfairness of affirmative action. But then, it's also be nice to see an awareness of history and contemporary reality, rather than the sorts of perfervid hysterics we get from the likes of Michael Savage.

Facts.
Facts.

- Hiring Quotas exist.
- They are based on gender and ethnic group
- Preference is given to women and minorities in order to satisfy SIGs, even though those minorites or women may not have the best qualifications for that particular job. If they need a "black" or a "woman" to "preserve the racial and gender balance" they will overlook a higher qualified white or male.

- In the great majority of cases, Child Custody and Support cases are decided against the fathers. A search on "fathers rights" will turn up a significant number of references, as well as the NOW's counter attack.

I know people who have been effected by these issues.
1 person has applied repeatedly for civil service positions, has impecible qualifications and experience to back it up. They have consistantly scored high on the tests, yet each time have been passed over for a minority and/or woman with lesser qualifications. Another person I know had fought for 3 years to see his son. His sons mother told the judge "kids not his". Judge said if he wanted to push it, it'll be $300 for the blood tests. Lacking the money he couldn't pursue it. A few years later, she shows up, wants money, judge orders the tests and the state paid for it. Despite his earlier attempts at doing the right thing, he was penalized for it, and hit with a huge "back" support award. Lost his licence, ****ed up his credit rating, they have repeatedly cleaned out his checking account, stolen his car and he STILL cannot see his son, unless he hires a shark to fight for "supervised visitation". He's a flight risk based on his credit report.

You want facts? Pull that Ivory head out of the sand Doc, and stop seeing the roses. There be Thorns there. I have read you positions on these issues repeatedly here, and despite your years of experience, your professional standing, and your own experiences, you repeatedly show a lack of willingness to see others positions. On so many issues you are right on the money. So "right on target" I want to scream "Bullseye!". But on others, you miss it man, miss it badly. It didn't just "impact on the surface" it "skipped off into space". Its a shame too, as those "on target" shots are usually great.

Heres mine:
- Great grandson of a minor Confederate military leader. He fought for freedom, never owned a slave, and had slightly forward views on blacks (for his time). I flt that flag with pride, and I'm not a racist.
- Watched a friend pushed to the breaking point because the women who bore his son put him through hell, the courts helped and every time he asked them for help they **** on him because as the judge told him "he was a man, so act like one". In Erie County NY, that means if you are female, you get court appointed everything, and if you are male you get to figure it all out yourself.
- Worked at a retail store and was told point blank that since I was a guy I could do all the heavy stuff. The "girls club" I worked with made damn sure to save all the "grunt" work for me. I've got the permanent scars to prove that.
- Was fired for "sexual harassment" because I asked a cashier out for lunch in front of the store manager. Said cashier was showing more than a kosher amount of cleveage, a higher than reg mini skirt and NO panties. Also like to bend seductively over counters and tended to drop her pen quite alot. When I was first fired it was for "not being a team player". By the time I got to the unemployment office, it had changed to "harassment". I of course could hire (at my own expense) a shark. A friend of mines sister was provided a free state-paid for shark to fight her court battle when she got canned.

Don't gloss over it, sugar coat it, or tell me it's rare. It exists, it's hidden and it's ********.

If it's funny for 2 black kids to say "white people" when looking at the stereotypical 'white jogger', then it should be just as funny when you see 2 white kids looking at the stereotypical 'black pimp'. Or just as offensive.

But, enough of the "its wrong to tell black jokes, or indian jokes, or jew jokes, lets do some polish jokes, or italian jokes or whitey jokes" crap.


======



Good: http://naacp.com/

Bad and Evil: http://naawp.com/

 

[MA-Caver]

You want facts? Pull that Ivory head out of the sand Doc, and stop seeing the roses. There be Thorns there. I have read you positions on these issues repeatedly here, and despite your years of experience, your professional standing, and your own experiences, you repeatedly show a lack of willingness to see others positions. On so many issues you are right on the money. So "right on target" I want to scream "Bullseye!". But on others, you miss it man, miss it badly. It didn't just "impact on the surface" it "skipped off into space". Its a shame too, as those "on target" shots are usually great.

Bester it's clear you're bitter about a lot of injustices to yourself and to friends of yours and various instances in society. It's okay to express them here but no need to be antagonistic if your views don't match up with someone elses or if their view point (*ahem* seems to intentionally) pushes buttons. No need to rise to the bait. It only lowers yourself.
Keep posts civil while still disagreeing is a doable possibility.

:asian:

 

[kenpo tiger]

Bester,

You're a pretty angry guy behind all that great common sense you usually display in your posts. Some of it with good reason. Some not.

1) I'm female, work in a predominantly female office (one male who is in a white collar position, two who are not but do not work on our floor). So, should that one man -- or the other two -- be the only ones who do the heavy lifting? They aren't -- and don't. In fact, Mr. WhiteCollar has yet to lift anything heavier than a pen. I, and a woman ten years my senior, are the ones who do it -- the water bottle, file boxes, you name it. No preferential treatment because you're female there, that's for sure. Oh yes. The boss is a woman also.
2) As to the civil service exam and being passed over for a position for women and other minorities, well, you can argue that point until you're hoarse. You will not win against bureaucrats who sit in their snugly feathered permanent nests until they retire. The beauty of the civil service system, at least as I know of it on my local government level, is that one cannot be fired. Period. You get 'laterally promoted' and your family members are given jobs without question or application.
3) The woman does not always get custody. Here in Nassau County, NY, my friend was denied custody of her children. Her husband got full custody. Then again, she was only his first wife. Number Two managed to screw up enough so that he could have joint custody. Who knows what will happen with Number Three.

We can go on and on. Fact is, we all feel at times like we been done wrong, and we probably were. But to use racial epithets to add fuel to the fire? I feel that's just plain wrong. It's a people problem, not a race problem.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, nobody demanded any sort of comprehensive list. One merely asked you to be reasonably accurate about the examples you yourself specifically cited.

Second off, the point about the Panthers was in response to your strong suggestion that lefties are so p.c. they never criticize each other. Weeellllp, not even close. The very term, "p.c.," started out as a sarcastic comment by leftists, about other leftists who were holier-than-thou...

Third off...if you're going to attempt rationaality, you need to start distinguishing between anecdotal remarks and actual evidence. At least in ivory-tower academics (and for somebody who claims never to listen to Rush et al, you sure repeat their party line a lot) academics, the evidence is rather strong that you can relax--white boys still get the preponderance of jobs, promotions, etc. Would references on where to find out about reality help?

And third--you should be angry. But the people who're sticking it to you aren't actually your enemies--your enemies are fat cat children of wealthy families--like our current Prez. Even more, your enemy is the loopy way we've arranged our economy. You're just buying the party lines of capitalists; you're just accepting "Pravda," and "Izvestia."

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Chris Rock is a controversial black comedian. He manages to offend blacks, whites, liberals and conservatives...all in one show, if not in the span of five minutes. Like Bill Cosby he is highly critical of the dregs of black society. Unlike Bill Cosby he uses vulgarity in his criticisms. I suspect his motivation is to reach out to blacks and slap them in the face with what he views as undesirable behavior. Case in point: The piece "How NOT to get your *** kicked by the police." He wasn't directing this to white people. He was directing it to blacks. It was funny. It also had a message.

The frustration with the fact that black comedians can get away with the word "n****r," and a white comedian cannot is understandable. It does indeed seem like a double standard and thus unfair. However, one must remember that blacks often do not use the term as an acidulous pejorative when they use it towards other blacks. Whites do.

We’ve come to think that racism in this country has largely passed with the tumult of the sixties and seventies. The Civil Rights movement did its job, some feel. The sentiment is that blacks are on a level playing field and that if they can’t hack it now, they never will.

This is a misperception and doesn’t reflect reality. Half of the 2 million inmates incarcerated in America are black. That’s one out of every 35 black people. Some whites use these statistics as validation of their notions of racial inferiority, while ignoring the disproportionate sentencing leveled against minorities. Blacks get far more death penalty sentences per capita, and longer sentences than whites for equivalent crimes. Manning Marable writes of one example of this disparity, “African Americans under age 18 comprise 15% of their national age group, yet they currently represent 26% of all those who are arrested.”

Stuff such as this breeds frustration and intolerance for a word they hear far more often than we do. I have never in my life heard the word “n****r” directed at me. None around me have the courage to use it disparagingly in conversation with me. I’m white. The word is not a part of my life or reflective of my social status. It is for them. My grandparents could not tell me of lynchings and beatings and bogus arrests for imagined slights. Theirs can. My parents were never denied service in a restaurant, a seat on a bus, a coach on a train, or the right to drink from a public drinking fountain. Theirs were.

Bester, the hate and resentment that fester within blacks goes back so far and hurts so deeply that few of us whites…no, likely, none of us…will ever fully understand it. We can hear the stories, but we didn’t live the experiences.

For that I’m willing to put up with a little bit of “in your face” attitude…what some might yet call “uppity.” If this is social friction it is one we can live with, and far preferable to what we had forty years ago. It can even have its utility—if we let it.



Regards,


Steve


http://www.afsc.org/pwork/1200/122k05.htm

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/crime03.htm

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bester, the hate and resentment that fester within blacks goes back so far and hurts so deeply that few of us whites…no, likely, none of us…will ever fully understand it. We can hear the stories, but we didn’t live the experiences.

For that I’m willing to put up with a little bit of “in your face” attitude…what some might yet call “uppity.” If this is social friction it is one we can live with, and far preferable to what we had forty years ago. It can even have its utility—if we let it.

Y'know Steve, I'm not. You are right, my parents weren't denied service in a resturaunt, forced to use special johns, etc. But neither were many of these folks giving the "in your face".

I've been trying to avoid these debates lately. I'm too busy and sometimes....sometimes it's just not worth it to get the dander up and feel the blood boil. But, here....it hit too close to home. The issue with the guys kid was too similar to my own case...stories I've heard too often from others.

I agree with AB there. I don't like the dual standard. I've been tagged, repeatedly, as a racist on this and other board for daring to say the "politically incorrect" about "Why not a National White Boy Day". Hell, I even tried to tie it in to Monday Night Football, and get Beer designated the official beverage.

We have parades for all these different groups, but the only folks representing Whites are those morons in the bedsheets waving flags, burning crosses and books. Why?

Why?

I should put up with this sanctioned discrimination because 200 years ago someones ancestors felt the sting of the lash? Last I heard, slavery was outlawed here over 150 years ago. That is enough time to move forward. I've been in predominantly black schools all my life. It wasn't the "white man" stopping those kids from showing up to class, and trying to learn. It was them. Stupid is as Stupid does. It knows no colors, creeds or genders as bounds. I applied myself, read books, took risks and put in some effort to move beyond the level of my parents. -Everyone- has that chance.
-Everyone-

Locally, we have 1 of the finest public library systems in the nation. There is nothing, but pride, arrogence and a huge ****ing chip on the shoulder that is stopping thousands of minoritys from walking in through the door, and picking up a book, or seeking help.

I refuse to put up with misdirected angst. As I said elsewhere, guys like Cosby and Murphy are looked down upon by their own, for "Selling Out". It's a crime to be successful. Cosby says the same things I just did, and he gets grief, called a racist, by other blacks, for daring to say the unspeakable.

That the state of black america is black americas fault, not some white racists a hundred years ago.

I've heard the horror stories about the jobs, it's why I don't waste my time applying. I gave up on the job front 3 years ago, and have been fighting, tooth and nail, without government grants, loans or handouts, ever since. When I applied for Medicade (or care, I get them confused) I was rejected. The person I spoke to told me point blank it was "A shame you're not a woman. We could get you in then."

All -I- ask is for it to be fair.

-I- Ask too much.


Bester: When debating Robert, it is best to have at least 12 sources, completely unconnected to argue with. He will take out 6-8, leaving at least 4 to hit target. Be careful that none of those shots fall astray of this sites sniping policy.


Robert: You have a tendency to push buttons. You pushed his. Mine are pushed too, but, this battle aint mine. I tend to agree more with Bester here, than you, but I find some truth in what you wrote as well. Then again, I see things in shades of grey.


Kenpo TIger: I don't think he said "always", just "mostly". Here in WNY, we've got at least 1 judge who pretty much screws over every father who goes through his court. I've also been the 'beast of burden' for a hen-club at 1 job. I've also dealth with preferential treatment over the years that's always seemed to prefer the minority or female. I've also seen numerous cases where it was just the opposite.


My position is, it's either all right, or all wrong. Judge and select people based on their abilities, not gender or color. If cartoon 1 is wrong, then so is 2. if 2 is, then so is 1. Personally, I find 99% of the boondocks insulting, but my local paper chooses to run it. That is part of why I do not buy that paper.

All these rules, quotas, laws, etc are needed, but need to be fairly and uniformly enforced and followed. Until the day when, they are no longer needed. When it won't matter your color, creed, gender, orientation, etc. When we are all simple "The" Human Race.


"Scotty, One to Beam Up."

 

[MA-Caver]

For that I’m willing to put up with a little bit of “in your face” attitude…what some might yet call “uppity.” If this is social friction it is one we can live with, and far preferable to what we had forty years ago. It can even have its utility—if we let it.
Regards,
Steve
http://www.afsc.org/pwork/1200/122k05.htm
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/crime03.htm

Steve, where you are willing to put up with it (uppitiness), I am not. I am a man and expect to be treated as such and will not tolerate anyone "in-my-face." I will do my utmost not to do the same and to my memory I haven't.
For these reasons; it's uneducated, it's uncivilized, it's antagonistic, it's childish and it's meant to intimidate where no intimidation is needed or necessary. You want something from me, you ask in a civil tone and manner and if it's within my power and reasonable I should be able to grant it. There's no need to go nose to nose physically or verbally. It's invading private space where no invasion was warranted. It is friction where none is needed.
We as a society (should) have grown over those last 40 years, and in many respects we have. I know I sure as hell have and I was just a babe when it all started way back when, but I experienced (and suffered) some of it's negative aspects. But as I mentioned before I have thankfully experienced the positive aspects of that movement. I do my utmost to return in kind.
There's no need to get in my face with the attitude of "hey you OWE me mutha fu--er!" Actually I don't owe them squat and by the same token they owe me... nothing. I'm making my own way through this life best as I can, I expect no less from anyone else. If they do better than me, more power to them, help out if you want to or are able to, if not leave me alone and we'll try to be friends anyway ... if they're doing worse then I'll do whatever I can to help out, if I can't then we'll try to be friends anyway.
:asian: