France: the old order changeth

[Tez3]

France has elected her first Socialist President for 25 years. Despite what seems to be commonly thought most European countries have Conservative governments, most notably France. Sarkozy's cosying up to the Far Right hasn't paid off, it turned voters against him. Could this be the first of the Conservative old guard to fall in Europe? Already over here we have had local council elections with the Labour Party doing well and the Conservatives doing badly. I'm glad too to say that the BNP, the Far Right party lost the council seats they had. The Right have made an omnishambles of the recession and the economies, the rich protecting the rich so it's time for change.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17975660

 

[elder999]

The Right have made an omnishambles of the recession and the economies, the rich protecting the rich so it's time for change

But....but....:lol:....but...socialism! :lfao:

 

[Tez3]

But....but....:lol:....but...socialism! :lfao:

Yep, Europe will be full of those commies again before you know it!

 

[Ken Morgan]

I seriously doubt they, or anyone else, will be able to do a much to fix what is broken. After 25 years though, it's worth a try.

 

[Tez3]

I seriously doubt they, or anyone else, will be able to do a much to fix what is broken. After 25 years though, it's worth a try.

Worth it just to wipe that smug smile off Sarkozy's face lol. Cameron and his lot here aren't happy here either, Labour did well in the local elections plus Cameron has to testify in the Leveson enquiry in Murdoch and his empire. Great fun.

 

[Master Dan]

The French were protesting last week and thier chant was ( there is plenty of money its in the pockets of the CEO's) I hope our 2012 election will get rid of alot of dilusional right wing republican and GOP people we can only hope.

I'd like to know what you think of what is happening in Germany's elections now with some even Neo Nazi fringe and other ultra conservative groups gaining power? due to financial issues

 

[Tez3]

The French were protesting last week and thier chant was ( there is plenty of money its in the pockets of the CEO's) I hope our 2012 election will get rid of alot of dilusional right wing republican and GOP people we can only hope.

I'd like to know what you think of what is happening in Germany's elections now with some even Neo Nazi fringe and other ultra conservative groups gaining power? due to financial issues

The same thing is happening in Greece, the Far Right are making a big push. In Germany and Austria there has always been that undercurrent of pro Nazism, Germany isn't as badly hit by the recession as the rest of the Eurozone but still the worms come out of their holes whenever they sense they can make some gains. Hopefully however the rest of the country is sensible and sane enough to resist letting them have real power.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/national_democratic_party_of_germany/
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,1348896,00.html

 

[Tez3]

 

[billc]

Viva la taxes, viva la spending, viva la big government programs!!!! If you thought France was screwed up before, wait till the socialists get a chance to muck things up.

Increase taxes on the wealthy, increase government spending, wow, it's amazing no one else has tried that before...oh yeah, they have...

 

[Master Dan]

The same thing is happening in Greece, the Far Right are making a big push. In Germany and Austria there has always been that undercurrent of pro Nazism, Germany isn't as badly hit by the recession as the rest of the Eurozone but still the worms come out of their holes whenever they sense they can make some gains. Hopefully however the rest of the country is sensible and sane enough to resist letting them have real power.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/topic/national_democratic_party_of_germany/
http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,1348896,00.html

Sad to say middle class people are buying the retoric here from the far right GOP republican party wanting to support extreme moves that with out understanding will hurt them in the end likr animal in pain bites itself. We can only hope that enough sane people are left to throw out Tea Party Far Right Republicans who have no interest in admitting the truth about anything and want to give everything back to the very people who caused this claiming imorral, lazy or illeagle imagrants are the problem make your self feel better by hating someone? thanks for the info

 

[Master Dan]

Viva la taxes, viva la spending, viva la big government programs!!!! If you thought France was screwed up before, wait till the socialists get a chance to muck things up.

Increase taxes on the wealthy, increase government spending, wow, it's amazing no one else has tried that before...oh yeah, they have...

Yes I guess it woudl be an increase to have people who have illegally skipped out paying little or nothing becasue they have money enough for attroney's and CPA that can lie and cheat on thier tax returns. I have personally known far more 7 and 8 figure income people that write off stuff and magically wind up with more assests that drug dealers ever did lie and cheating as everday business and by the way small busines today can be a company that does over $100 million a year but go ahead keep drinking the cool Aid your serving it we cannot put an end to this then the best thing would be to let all the far right take complete control and when 95% of the country is totally screwed no place to live can't eat we will take a lesson out fo the French revolution and bring back the Quezenart conservative food processor or we better learn how to eat Solent Green

 

[billc]

Well, since socialism and the nazis have once again been mentioned, in the wrong context...here is Nobel Prize winning economist Friedrich Hayek on socialism of the German model...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/29736559/FA-Hayek-On-Nazi-Socialism

Can't quite copy from the above so here is another source of the same article...

http://carrefoursagesse.wordpress.com/2009/10/21/friedrich-von-hayek-nazism-is-socialism/

The persecution of the Marxists, and of democrats in general, tends to obscure the fundamental fact that National “Socialism” is a genuine socialist movement, whose leading ideas are the final fruit of the anti-liberal tendencies which have been steadily gaining ground in Germany since the later part of the Bismarckian era, and which led the majority of the German intelligentsia first to “socialism of the chair” and later to Marxism in its social-democratic or communist form.
One of the main reasons why the socialist character of National Socialism has been quite generally unrecognized, is, no doubt, its alliance with the nationalist groups which represent the great industries and the great landowners. But this merely proves that these groups too, as they have since learnt to their bitter disappointment, have, at least partly, been mistaken as to the nature of the movement. But only partly because, and this is the most characteristic feature of modern Germany, many capitalists are themselves strongly influenced by socialistic ideas, and have not sufficient belief in capitalism to defend it with a clear conscience.
But, in spite of this, the German entrepreneur class have manifested almost incredible short-sightedness in allying themselves with a movement of whose strong anti-capitalistic tendencies there should never have been any doubt. A careful observer must always have been aware that the opposition of the Nazis to the established socialist parties, which gained them the sympathy of the entrepreneur, was only to a very small extent directed against their economic policy.

And here he is discussing Nazism and its attitude toward capitalism and individualism...

But the dominant feature is a fierce hatred of anything capitalistic-individualistic profit seeking, large scale enterprise, banks, joint-stock companies, department stores, “international finance and loan capital,” the system of “interest slavery” in general; the abolition of these is described as the “basis of the programme, around which everything else turns.” It was to this programme that the masses of the German people, who were already completely under the influence of collectivist ideas, responded so enthusiastically.

Sounds more like OWS than the Republican party doesn't it. If only more people understood the nature of socialism...and where it leads...

Viva la taxes, viva la spending, viva la big government!!!!

 

[Tez3]

Do you judge everything by their economic view? If so it's no wonder you have it wrong about the Nazis. We are fighting the Far Right over here, you know the ones who want to dispose of anyone not like them. if you keep telling yourself that it's all about taxes and capitalism I guess you will convince yourself you are right, however those who lived through the last war, those who suffered under the Far Right and those who fight the Far Right know different. Just because someone with the word 'professor' in front of their name says something it doesn't make it true. find someone in person who actually lived through that time in Europe and ask them for the truth.

 

[billc]

Well, Hayek wrote the above as the Nazis were coming to power and I believe the other econonmist Von Mises, fled Europe to get away from the nazis. I think that qualifies for living during that time?

 

[CanuckMA]

 

[WC_lun]

I thought it interesting, though a bit unsettling that Greece elected communist AND neo-nazis to seats. After the cluster **** made by the Greece government with financial swaps, pretty much bancrupting them through fees and increased interest, I can kinda sorta understand the communist gaining a few seats. Has it been so long that neo nazis are let to hold power again though?

 

[Scott T]

Viva la taxes, viva la spending, viva la big government programs!!!! If you thought France was screwed up before, wait till the socialists get a chance to muck things up.

Increase taxes on the wealthy, increase government spending, wow, it's amazing no one else has tried that before...oh yeah, they have...

So Bill, no comment on France's current state of affairs after a quarter century of conservative 'leadership'? How can the liberals screw it up more?

 

[billc]

Hmmm...did the "conservative" governments reduce government spending? Did the conservative governments curb big government programs or reduce a large part of the bureacratic state with its huge and unsustainable benefit packages? Did the conservative governments get control of big government welfare programs? Did conservative governments reduce barriers to private enterprise in any real meaningful way? Here is an article that looks at France and its economic state...

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/05/07/french-socialists-victory-is-a-symbol-of-the-eus-decline/

Soaring taxes, spiraling unemployment, mountains of red tape, stifling labour regulations, and ruinous levels of public spending needed to fund vast and unsustainable welfare states and entitlement programmes have created a perfect storm of economic malaise. And France is a potent symbol of that decline, with huge levels of public debt, now standing at more than 80 percent of GDP, government spending at 55 percent of GDP, and a tax burden equivalent to 42 percent of total domestic income. In addition, Western Europe’s problems have been exacerbated by the relentless centralisation of political and economic power in Brussels, which has added layers of suffocating regulations for businesses operating within the EU, as well as onerous regulations on financial institutions, while the single currency has made it increasingly difficult for national leaders to address their own countries’ economic woes.

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/france

And here is an article that talks about the "fake" austerity measures...

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journa...sterity-When-Government-Spending-Keeps-Rising

[h=1]t Spending Keeps Rising[/h]

If the conservative governments couldn't rein in the problems made by wasteful and corrupt big government, as France has, then putting a socialist in charge is going to increase, not decrease, the tax problems, the spending problems, the out of control big government programs and bloated state machine.

If the conservative governments couldn't change these things in a way to fix the problems, then it didn't matter if they were in charge. Putting a socialist in charge is only going to speed up the disaster...

 

[billc]

Mark Steyn also points out that once government gets to huge levels, as they are in Europe, then free market supporting conservatives can't make changes, the system is too all encompassing and the people fight the changes because they are used to getting government goodies. As Charles Krauthammer pointed out, they wanted to change the retirement age in Greece from 60 to 62 and they had people fire bombing buildings. He said you had young people in the streets rioting over something they wouldn't have to deal with for 40 years. So Steyn points out, conservatives just become less big, spending stewards of the bloated entitlement state because they can't make real changes that make a difference...

From the article above...

Government spending has continued to rise across much of Europe, and even those countries that have made small cuts have not reduced government spending to pre-recession levels. Some Keynesians might believe that these policies are draconian relative to the massive spending that should have happened during a recession, but that is shifting the austerity goalposts.


Veronique de Rugy atNational Review Online points to the graph above, and also points out that "whenever cuts took place, they were always overwhelmed by large counterproductive tax increases." Higher taxes on the "rich" have led to uniform misery in Europe--and to political extremism among disenchanted voters.That is the real failure of European policy, and the lesson most relevant to Americans as we head to the polls to choose between an incumbent who wants to raise taxes and one who wants to reform them.

 

[Tez3]

Bili, it's all about the money with you isn't it? the only thing you judge a government on it's whether it makes money, the trouble is you miss out the human tragedies and the human suffering by concentrating solely on the economics. The Far Right in Europe doesn't actually have much of an economic policy, they campaign for votes by blaming everything on immigrants, blacks and Jews. they are on a campaign of terror, they don't care much about economics.


It simply doesn't matter that it's a 'big' government or a 'small' one if you are being denied your freedom, if you are being persecuted, if you cannot work not because there's no jobs but because you are allowed to because of the colour of your skin or your religion.


Most places in Europe don't have higher taxes on the rich, as I said most governments in Europe are Conservatives, they want the poor to pay for the mistakes of the bankers not them.

Before quoting all these nonentities 'wise' thoughts, I think it would be better if you stopped looking at the economics and started looking at the human cost of Conservative policies in Europe.