Found on the ICHF news page :D

[Hollywood1340]

-On April 18th, 2004 Grandmaster Pellegrini recieved his 9th Dan in Busan, Korea by Grandmaster In Sun Seo of the World Ki-Do Federation/Hanminjok Federation

Many congratulations to my GM! :asian: From a proud Combat Hapkidoian!

 

[Drac]

James.
Let me join you in congradulating GM P on this accomplishment...




Another proud member
of the ICHF

Drac

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

A 9th Dan after 15 years involvment in a martial art should be put in perspective for what it is.

As a rule, not a giant rule, most who formulate their own system are high ranked in at least one art, then, after a lifetime of study, creat their own perspective on it. This is not the case with "Combat Hapkido".

Lots of people read this stuff, and it would be a diservice not to mention that Pelligrini started in Tae Kwon Do, was given an HONORARY 1st Dan in Hapkido from the American Hapkido Association (apparently only Honorary because of an issue with physical manual dexterity), somehow then got a 5th Dan from the WHF (about two years later) - then off to see the wizard at the World Kido Federation and poof - Combat Hapkido was born - ten years after that - 9th Dan.

Hey, if it works for you, that is awesome. But in this country, we have soooo many "9th" Dans after 10 years of study, it has got to be a kick in the teeth to people that spend decades in practice. For example, (and please forgive me for dragging you into this) - Kwanjang of Kong Shin Bup Rudy Timmerman has been in the arts for over 50 years and received a 9th Dan this year as well as I recall - there is a huge disparity here.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Kevin. I am not so sure that is such a "small" difference, either. I would also like to mention that 8th, 9th and 10th dans are all administrative in nature. Even Rudy will be the first to mention that the 9th dan that he received is not a reflection of technical know-how as much as a recognition of his management and leadership skills. If one were to play the image game, TECHNICALLY, as a 4th Dan I COULD start my own kwan or organization and in being recognized by someone like the KHF or WKA or some such as a new kwan I COULD have a 9th dan bestowed on me. With a mere 20 years in the Hapkido arts there is no way I would let that happen. My sense is that the only reason that Rudy accepted the standing which he was given was that his investment in the KMA better justifies the award and he has a standing relationship with GM Seo.

Now, I am not going to get involved in any squabbling about the merits of who gets what rank. My only reason for piping up is that when people get awarded these rarified ranks I think it is a disservice to allow people to think that an 8th or 9th dan is a reflection of extraordinary technical ability. All it means is that you are a good manager and somebody in the leadership thinks so. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Bruce, I agree completely! Just wanted to mention it because here in the States, martial arts is as much about the belt number game as it is about knowledge.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Hey Bruce,

How about a thread about the organizations that issue rank? Just pros and cons, what makes a good organization vs. a not so good organization? Might be good for some chat...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[kwanjang]

... For example, (and please forgive me for dragging you into this) - Kwanjang of Kong Shin Bup Rudy Timmerman has been in the arts for over 50 years and received a 9th Dan this year as well as I recall - there is a huge disparity here.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

Hello Kevin, KJN:
No problem. I actually felt quite uneasy about the whole thing; because, up to that point, I had always TESTED for rank. To be AWARDED any rank just does not sit well with me. Alas, I did want the art my GM had organized recognized by a Korean association (as a final token of appreciation for what my late GM had given me). As the inheritor of KSB, I apparently needed to be promoted in order to lead the kwan. Upon my return, and prompted by some questions about it, I actually explained my feelings about the issue on several forums as Bruce mentioned.

Rank is not a significant thing to me; however, I do understand its value as a tool. Just the same, you won't see me mention any promotions I receive in any magazines I prefer to have folks evaluate my worth on the mat for as long as I can still get on it without discrediting Hap Ki Do.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

I would be all for such a discussion but I don't know that it would go anywhere. Organizations that don't sell rank already know that they keep high standards. Those organizations that DO sell rank are not going to cop to it. As far as the actual dynamics of organizations themselves I have to say in all candor that I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for the overwhelming majority of organizations that are available on the market today. I have had first-hand experience with the sorts of folks that an organization produces in the organization I belong to (WHF). Oh sure, when the discussion is in the abstract they can talk a good line of jargon-eze. Let the discussion come around to actually practicing what they say they practice and its the same old commercial/political crap. I'm sure a lot of folks find my quaint advocacy of the old kwan approach to the KMA novel, maybe even laughable, who knows. But I have never had half the trouble with the Yon Mu Kwan that I have had through my efforts with the WHF. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[whalen]

Thanks, Kevin. I am not so sure that is such a "small" difference, either. I would also like to mention that 8th, 9th and 10th dans are all administrative in nature. Even Rudy will be the first to mention that the 9th dan that he received is not a reflection of technical know-how as much as a recognition of his management and leadership skills. If one were to play the image game, TECHNICALLY, as a 4th Dan I COULD start my own kwan or organization and in being recognized by someone like the KHF or WKA or some such as a new kwan I COULD have a 9th dan bestowed on me. With a mere 20 years in the Hapkido arts there is no way I would let that happen. My sense is that the only reason that Rudy accepted the standing which he was given was that his investment in the KMA better justifies the award and he has a standing relationship with GM Seo.


Best Wishes,

Bruce

I enjoy reading your humor, But as a reality check the KHF would not allow you to become a ninth Dan or for that matter a fifth Dan. wether you have your own kwan or not .

You would need more than Keyboard skills to convince them otherwise. some where in your journey you would have to have the skills on the mat to back up the skills that you write about.

And you would have go before the senior committee of the KHF and have the recommendation of at least four of the eight person panel. The way you have attacked them so many times. I some how feel it would not be an open arms meeting. So please Do not assume they would embrace you for contribution to the Hapkido community.

Hal

 

[glad2bhere]

I don't remember anyone talking to you--- or even about you. But since you are once again not able to keep your attention-getting behavior undercontrol may I say the following.

1.) I have never injured any of my students, nor exploited them in a demonstration to make myself look good in other peoples eyes.

2.) I have not moved back and forth among five or six different entities in an effort to garner standing and rank as have you.

3.) I have not sold rank or standing nor do I undercut members of the kwan to which I belong as have the leadership of the KHF.

4.) I have not spoken of people behind their backs as you have done with the AHA and Todd Miller and Mike McCardy, nor undermined the efforts of others such as JR West by suggesting alternative events to his Internationales.

I could deride you as a mean-spirited embarrassment to the Hapkido community but that would be a slander to all the other mean-spirited people in this world. Suffice to say you are an embarrassment and plainly not equal in Character to the responsibilites you propose to perform.

In conclusion I can say in all candor that there is a simple way to reconcile your presence and mine in the same martial arts community. On October 2 and 3rd in Merrilville Ind GM Seo is having a seminar regarding his new kwans' material. You are welcome to join me on the mat with the following provisos

a.) You must remain with the same partner as you begin the day with.

b.) You must take as many breakfalls from your partner as you give.

c.) You may not injure your partner.

d.) You may perform no less techniques than do I.

e.) You are expected to attend both days and remain for both days beginning to end and abiding by the provisos I have outlined.

I will be abiding by the same provisos with my partner.

If this is not to your liking there is also a seminar the following weekend in Texas with GM Ji where the same provisos will apply.

I have every confidence that you will find a reason not to show up.

That having shown up you will not get on the mat.

That getting on the mat you will not be able to submit to the agenda of another teacher.

That submitting to another teacher you will abuse your partner.

That in not being able to abuse your partner you will be unable to sustain your practice for the entire 2-day length of the seminar.

Put up or shut up.

Regards

 

[whalen]

I don't remember anyone talking to you--- or even about you. But since you are once again not able to keep your attention-getting behavior undercontrol may I say the following.

1.) I have never injured any of my students, nor exploited them in a demonstration to make myself look good in other peoples eyes.

2.) I have not moved back and forth among five or six different entities in an effort to garner standing and rank as have you.

3.) I have not sold rank or standing nor do I undercut members of the kwan to which I belong as have the leadership of the KHF.

4.) I have not spoken of people behind their backs as you have done with the AHA and Todd Miller and Mike McCardy, nor undermined the efforts of others such as JR West by suggesting alternative events to his Internationales.

I could deride you as a mean-spirited embarrassment to the Hapkido community but that would be a slander to all the other mean-spirited people in this world. Suffice to say you are an embarrassment and plainly not equal in Character to the responsibilites you propose to perform.

In conclusion I can say in all candor that there is a simple way to reconcile your presence and mine in the same martial arts community. On October 2 and 3rd in Merrilville Ind GM Seo is having a seminar regarding his new kwans' material. You are welcome to join me on the mat with the following provisos

a.) You must remain with the same partner as you begin the day with.

b.) You must take as many breakfalls from your partner as you give.

c.) You may not injure your partner.

d.) You may perform no less techniques than do I.

e.) You are expected to attend both days and remain for both days beginning to end and abiding by the provisos I have outlined.

I will be abiding by the same provisos with my partner.

If this is not to your liking there is also a seminar the following weekend in Texas with GM Ji where the same provisos will apply.

I have every confidence that you will find a reason not to show up.

That having shown up you will not get on the mat.

That getting on the mat you will not be able to submit to the agenda of another teacher.

That submitting to another teacher you will abuse your partner.

That in not being able to abuse your partner you will be unable to sustain your practice for the entire 2-day length of the seminar.

Put up or shut up.

Regards

Bruce you crack me up You have run off my mat and ran away from Ji han jaes seminar now you want to return ? Master jis people woulld love to get you on the mat before you sneak out like a thief in the nigth.

I found you coments like you unpredictable when you sent an email about keven Sogor stating he cannot be trusted maybe i should post that ?

brucie.

I have you on video at my dojang when you would perform a technique on my students step back so it could not be performed on you ? It is here on film ?

Bruce do not forget you are biting off more than you can chew maybe you should go do research on the history of the KMA while the REAL HAPKIDOIN TRAIN... or is where you threaten me with like you have others that wanted to visit your Dojang ?

 

[whalen]

>> This is the first time I have posted here. After the workout at Mudo
>> Academy I felt Master Whalen was treated unfairly and decided to give
>> an 'outsiders' view. My son has studied Hapkido under Master Whalen
>> for 6 years (he is now 13). My son was invited to workout with the
>> adults during the 5/1-5/2 weekend. I came along to take video and
>> still pictures.
>> On Sunday of that weekend while attempting to throw another adult,
>> Bruce reinjured his leg. Within a few minutes he was off the mat and
>> dressed to leave. He never said anything to Master Whalen. While he
>> was standing in the waiting area I asked him if he would like some
>> Icy Hot or an ice bag. He nearly bit my head off! He snapped that no,
>> he did not want anything. When I asked if he was ok, he again snapped
>> at me that no, he was not ok. He then walked away and called a cab to
>> take him to the airport. Again without the courtesy of informing
>> Master Whalen that he needed to leave.
>> When Master Whalen came over to check on him, Bruce also treated
>> Master Whalen poorly. He snapped at him that he did not need to hurt
>> himself again and that he did not need anything from Master Whalen.
>> I am sorry that Bruce hurt himself. However, he did it himself. There
>> was no reason whatsoever for him to talk to me or Master Whalen the
>> way that he did and no reason for him to leave in such a huff. This
>> man is an adult and was a guest to Master Whalen. He should have
>> acted as such. Also, I believe he teaches Hapkido. I would not want
>> my child to learn from someone with such bad manners.
>> During the past 6 years that my son has studied Hapkido, Master
>> Whalen and his instructors have always taught respect. It is a
>> fundamental part of Hapkido. Master Whalen's ethics are a big part of
>> the reason why I have followed him through through 2 moves and 6
>> years. He teaches the kids honor, respect and pride. Bruce could
>> learn a lot from Master Whalen in these departments.
>>
>>this was taken from another site


Hal

 

[glad2bhere]

This is not rocket science. Either you are going to put up or shut up. You can drag up all the testimonials from satisfied mothers whose kids you babysit.

You can comment on all the events you have gossiped about (by the way, I didn't see you or Mike Tomlinson or Rick Nabors at that Colorado event. Who are you to talk about an event you never even attended?).

1.) And BTW I wouldn't woof TOO loud about leaving a school early unless you want to explain YOUR behavior in Korea a while back to everybody whose reading this. That tune plays the same forward AND backward.

2.) You also might want to explain why you only get out on the mat when its YOU who is incurring the pain. Two day seminar in Jackson AND in Quincy and never ONCE took a breakfall? Sad thing is that was completely missed by people who were so easily "wow-ed" by your demo-s. You will recall no doubt that even with an injury I took breakfalls for my partner all day (10-6)Saturday. I never saw you take one.

Now, my little keyboard commando, I suggest you answer the original question. Either you are coming to Merriville for GM Seo-s event or you are making plans for the Texas event with GM Ji. Which is it going to be?

BTW: If you like Todd can be your "lifeline" for this one. Maybe you might want to call him up for another 2-hour derision session.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Ok gents. Let's tone it down. I am aware that there were issues which arose from the visit to your dojang by Bruce. I have heard this from multiple sources. That being said, I'm not sure this is the forum that these concerns need to be addressed in.

I would also like to comment here on proper etiquette and netiquette. One should show respect to one's seniors, whether they agree or not. Aside from this, we are each on the path, as evidenced by our continued participation in the arts. There are many who have long given up at this point. Our sheer tenacity deserves respect.

Let's move on to something a tad more productive please.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Frank:

I can only say that on surface I agree with you entirely. To use the words that both Master West and his chief assistant have counseled me with "... and take the higher road." Unfortunately I must report that the ideal in this is simply lost on people dedicated to incurring injury. I believe this was seen in the efforts of that OTHER person ( you know--- HIM) over the last 2 years and is periodically seen in the behaviors of folks who may simply be too immature to know better( I don't know which it is). I don't have a window into other peoples hearts. What HAS become unmistakeably clear to me is that bullies will continue to push and pick, antagonize and deride until someone finally decides there has been enough. You will note, I think, that noone asked Hals' opinion. Noone was talking about Hal. Noone was talking TO Hal. He himself has by choice or selection been relegated to a relatively small standing with the KHF through an ancillary organization so its not as though he was speaking for the KHF. A near identical situation occurred on another string regarding the WHF to which he has not been a member in some years and could not possibly know what is transpiring with that organization in the last few years. My OWN comment was a single clause of an otherwise complete sentence speaking to another issue.

Unfortunately Hals' ego and his poor impulse control are his own undoing. In my case I have no control over his behavior so he is free to antagonize anyone he cares to at will. What he has to understand is he can pick at anyone he chooses to; he simply is not allowed to conduct himself in this way with me. I am sure he finds his current circumstances daunting, but I didn't do it to him. He did it to himself. If I were in a place to offer solace I would suggest that he do something about his over-weening desire to have people applaud him. FWIW.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Bruce,

What you say may be accurate; however, there is no reason why you cannot take the proverbial high road. I'm asking that we maintain a conversation that is a tad more civil.

 

[whalen]

What bruce is saying is not accurate in any way he is taking things out of context and uses it any way he sees fit. if he asks you a question beware because he will use the answer you give him against you.
He seems to think he is the savior Of Hapkido. He is not ......

Ask anyone that was at the Last J. R West seminar and ask if I took falls ? I was being thrown by Fabian and Mike Tomlinson Where was bruce ? I was also at Master Timmermans seminar getting tied up By Holcombe Thomas and being thrown around where was Bruce ?

Usually when one is teaching the seminar they are not receiving the Falls ? When i was asked by to do demonstrations at various events Where I was teaching People expect to see what is going to be taught not the instructor being thrown.


Brucie your qeustion will not recieve an answer because you are not a challange . you should reevaluate your stand because you are writting checks your body cannot cash.

Hal

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Frank:

Point well taken so perhaps you can help out with something. Please note the following quote from Hal Whalen.

"......
Bruce you crack me up You have run off my mat and ran away from Ji han jaes seminar now you want to return ? Master jis people woulld love to get you on the mat before you sneak out like a thief in the nigth.

I found you coments like you unpredictable when you sent an email about keven Sogor stating he cannot be trusted maybe i should post that ?...."

I have BEEN on the mat with GM Jis' people. Whats the point? Everyone with a belly-button knows I am not particularly impressed with what I witnessed as Jis' teaching style. Some people like it. Thats OK for them. I just plain wasn't that impressed. The people I worked out with were pretty much the same as any other Hapkido people I've worked out with--- no better, no worse. Whats the point?

NOW------

The reason I brought that up was that the information in THAT part of the quote is relatively innocuous. I think of it as the 2004 equivalent of "yer mama wears army boots". Its the second half of the quote that bothers me--- bothers me a lot!!

As you know, Frank, a MA teacher pretty much runs on his reputation, and arguably that reputation needs to be squeeky clean. A few clouds on a persons' rep and suddenly people start walking wide circles around that person, enrollment drops off and we have another MA school on the ropes. So putting my personal issue with Hal to one side for a moment I think Hal needs to document his last assertion in that quote. I can tell you from my side that Kevin Sogor came up in a telephone conversation wherein Hal wanted to know why Kevin was contacting him and what sort of person he is. Kevins' report is that he has never talked to Hal --- ever and has never written Hal an e-mail--- ever. If Hal Whalen has an e-mail casting aspersions on a professional MA teacher I propose that he produce that. The only thing that I would ask is that he publish a scan of that e-mail including a full header. Certainly this would not completely rule out tampering but perhaps it might at least limit the probability. If Hal cannot produce the document he claims he has and which defames Kevin in the way that Hal claims it does, then I submitt that Hal Whalen be permanently banned from this Net and I will leave it entirely to the judgement of the Admin to decide the merits of the published item. Fair enough?

BTW: While we are at it. How about Hal gives the names of the Ji people who "love to get you on the mat." There is the Ji event in Texas. Give me the names and we'll put that together. Dave Beck is organizing things down there and I am sure he would be more than willing to help organize things so that people have a chance to spend decent portions of the training with me on the mat. Not a problem from MY end. Fair enough?

Regards,

Bruce

 

[whalen]

Frank better yet contact felix lugo, Holcombe thomas , JR West Rudy Timerman about me ? Also contact my dojang any night and talk to people that were here and witnessed the Bruce Almighty......

I am not looking for a fight i am tired of the little remarks from Bruce attacking everyone and the KHF

this is my last post He is your problem .

Hal artyon:

 

[Mithios]

Come on guys! This is not elementary school!! Could we please get back on the thread topic? You both seem knowledgeable in Hapkido, but i sure wouldn't know it from these post's. Mithios