Forms

[Cruentus]

I can't believe how many shots you've taken to the head. Form 10 covered Chai power, not chi power. You guys needed some good tea because of the lousy coffee you have in Michigan (or had at the time). :erg:

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Because you spilled the beans on the secret MA Black Book, now you don't get one.

Steer clear of the evil starbucks corporation! Not only will your coffee suck, but you'll be supporting their goals of world domination!

Carribu Coffee is the way to go here in the Great Lakes.

:uhyeah:

 

[Flatlander]

all great stuff, but we seem to be moving away from the original intent of the thread. So what about "how" you all teach the forms (you guys all seem to be teachers here, making me feel like the only student, but your student, your cyber student, who's not paying you.) (except Mr. Anderson, who sold me a book.).

What I mean by how is, just standing up? On one knee? Lying on the ground? Transitioning between all? What is common? How did Professor Presas do it?

 

[Guro Harold]

Hi Flatlander,

Sorry, I thought that I had covered this previously.

For the most part the forms are taught with the right-handed perspective while standing. The other major perspective is from a left handed perspective or adding different weapons.

In Hock Hocheim's Pacific Archipelago and Filipino Combatives, he encourages learning techniques standing, kneeling, on the ground, running forward and backward, however, we do not have the anyos in the system, only the "Hirada Responses" (Like the "Seguidas" in other Espada Y Daga systems).

Best regards,

Palusut

 

[Dan Anderson]

all great stuff, but we seem to be moving away from the original intent of the thread. So what about "how" you all teach the forms (you guys all seem to be teachers here, making me feel like the only student, but your student, your cyber student, who's not paying you.) (except Mr. Anderson, who sold me a book.).

What I mean by how is, just standing up? On one knee? Lying on the ground? Transitioning between all? What is common? How did Professor Presas do it?

I teach the same way Prof. Presas taught them, standing up.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[sungkit]

Having trained in the forms under the instruction of Snr Master Vicente Sanchez in the Philippines, he teaches the forms as he was taught by Professor Remy Presas. His scrutiny is such, that he will correct you on the minutest indiscretion.

Personally and I know this is the feeling of my own teacher, the forms are a guide and once they are learnt and started to be understood, then the person's own individual interpretation will flavour the forms.

 

[Cruentus]

all great stuff, but we seem to be moving away from the original intent of the thread. So what about "how" you all teach the forms (you guys all seem to be teachers here, making me feel like the only student, but your student, your cyber student, who's not paying you.) (except Mr. Anderson, who sold me a book.).

What I mean by how is, just standing up? On one knee? Lying on the ground? Transitioning between all? What is common? How did Professor Presas do it?

The thing was, Professor Presas rarely did them. He didn't do them at any of the events I went to. Someone else always taught them. Everyone taught them differently. At best, he gave me some advice now and again, in passing.

Generally, the stick anyos were taught with a stick in the right hand; empty hand just empty hand. Now, I remember some people got a kick out of doing the stick anyos left handed, doing the empty hand forms all stepping backwards, or forwards, etc. I personally had fun on my own time building my sword/dagger attributes by doing the stick and empty hand anyos with a sword and dagger in my hand. It was all good if it worked and was helpful, because that is your expression.

It really was up to your own expression. However, there were certian people who understood the template well, and could teach the forms well, and looked good while doing it; and those people were chosen specifically to teach forms at camps at different times. Tim Hartman taught forms alot. I also remember Jay Spiro teaching, as well as Dan Converse if I am not mistaken. I've taught some as well, against my will.

Now there were certain people who Remy may have specifically taught aspects of the forms too. Dan Anderson said the old man gave him a specific way of teaching. Chad Dulin remembers being told somethig else that was specific. Jim Power in Flint was taught privately by Professor, and was taught his forms a specific way. Tim Hartman was asked to standardize the forms in the New video tape series, as far as I know, before Professor passed on.

Point is, my opinion, for what it's worth, is that it is good that we are not in a vaccum, because no one person holds the monopoly on Modern Arnis, whether forms or anything else. We all have different pieces of the puzzle. Learn as many pieces of the puzzle that you can, then make your own puzzle. I think that's what the old man wanted us to do. This goes for forms, or anything else.

PAUL
:asian:

 

[Flatlander]

Hey folks, I really appreciate your candour. I seek to get closer to the truth, and you all are helping to guide me. Was this a good thread or what? Thanks again.

Dan

 

[Rich Parsons]

Flatlander (I know his real name),

What I feel the forms are good for are A. preserving the empty hand material RP taught and B. they show movement and actions which aren't commonly found in typical karate actions. They contain a good template for the catching, locking, and throwing actions which are common in Modern Arnis.

The manner in which they are done is where you are going to find the greatest variation. The practitioner's background is going to influence movement. On RP's first set of tapes, the forms are done by Jim and Judy Clapp. They look like they have a kenpo background. I've seen Paul walk through the forms. I was at Jim Power's (who pre-dates me in Modern Arnis and that's saying something) and watched Rich Parsons go through the forms. None of them look like the way I do the forms. We follow, basically, the same template. It used to be somewhat of a big deal what they looked like. Actually, where the rubber meets the road is in application. What are you doing while you are "doing the dance." That is where the forms have value, I feel.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Paul - forms 7&8 are secret forms and you were shown something different to appease your curiousity and so we could laugh at you when you weren't looking. It succeeded. :rofl:

Dan,

I agree it is the applications that make the form

Now, I just want to know if I have to learn them all over again, since I do not do them like everyone else . Seriously, it is the way our group does the forms, it is not the only way nor the correct way.

In 1987 when I meet Tim Hartman for the first time ( we meet formally later ), I also meet Dr. Randi Schea and had the priviledge of doing semi sparring with him. (* he was suprised that I could flow and did not have a heavy hand as did many of the other large guys at the seminar *). I was learning the forms from many different people at the camp. It seemed that there were almost as many ways as there were schools present. As I had the priviledge of driving GM Remy Presas to the seminar from Flint, I felt comfortable to talk to him and ask him which way should I do the forms. I had a stick in my hand at the time. He smiled and said stand there with your back against the wall. Can you now do cane form three with the steps backward? No the wall is in your way. Stand in the corner, can you do cane form four now? No you cannot turn to your right. I was still young and not very bright. (* Now I am just older and not very bright *). I asked again, so which way is the correct way to learn them or to teach them. He smiled at me again and said, learn them all. I hope that when my students get together, that they will have things to share and teach with each other. I went back and did my best to learn what I could. It was not until later I realized, that it was a template. (* MY words *). You could throw, or strike, or apply it with a knife or with a cane or with a machete or ..., .

Therefore, I recognize why the different groups have a specific way to teach the forms. This gives a standard to learn them and be tested by them. I just believe that, GM Remy Presas wanted us all to be able to flow from one technique to another, and he would use what ever teaching mechanization he could to get people to open their minds and flow. "Do not resist what you knwo to be true" . Therefore when some tells me I do it wrong, I smile, and ask them how they do it. I can at least maybe see a new variation, and learn something.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Note: for the Michigan 87 Camp. THere were many more that I meet later as well, including our own Arnisador , and many more.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Yes, 1987 was my first Michigan camp!

 

[Mark Lynn]

Coming from a American TKD back ground I was really into learning the forms at my first camp in Dallas in 95. Myself and the guy I was working with (a preying mantis instructor) and Arlie (a guy that would later become my main seminar workout partner for the next several years) really worked on forms one and two. The mantis instructor did his forms on the test mantis style and the Professor liked it.

The next year we (Arlie and I) were told that we did the forms wrong yet we were doing them the way we were taught. So we changed, a year or two later Arlie had a discussion with another instructor (semi heated) about one of the stick anyos that again we supposedly had learned wrong. It was after that that I pretty much dropped worrying about the forms. I did them for the tests and such but didn't really work on them till the next year. There seemed to be no real point (I thought at the time) due to the Professor not teaching them, and everyone doing them differently.

I think in 2000/01 I talked to Dr. Schea about it at the summer camp and he told me that the forms meant a lot to GM Remy. That back when he started the Professor taught them and everyone had to do it (I think both left and right) and know the applications as well. It made me think back to when I use to see GM Remy sitting in his chair watching Arlie and I work on the forms during the camp, so I started to apply myself working on the forms again.

However now due to the way I teach and the small amount of students that I have, since the professor's passing I haven't worked on them. This thread has been helpful in understanding what might have been going on back then and the boat I missed. :idunno:

Mark