Forms: Do you train them? If so, how many? How complex?

[Xue Sheng]

Now, how about you guys?

What about us guys?

Do you use forms ?

Yes

How many?

Lots. to many actually, I am basically an CIMA guy, Xingyiquan and Taijiquan

How complex?

Well that is a whole other discussion. Example, Wuxingquan of Xingyiquan looks rather simple on the surface... but on the inside that is another story all together

 

[geezer]

Lamont, you raise a good question about just what exactly constitutes a "form". For the purposes of this discussion, I would not include simple striking patterns and drills such as the cinco tiros/5-striking angles, 12-striking angles, sinawali drills like 6-heaven, etc., or paired drills like our hit-back/sumbrada (which is random, not choreographed).

On the other hand I do train a short offensive form we also call "Cinco Tiros" that is based on the series of five strikes with the same name. It begins with a bow, involves a sequential series of attacks, patterned stepping, with a total of 60 choreographed movements, and ending precisely on the starting point. That sounds like a "form" to me.


Now to respond to Chris, I suppose what I had in mind in the OP was the traditional concept of a form or set, like a classical Japanese kata. Although, if you've ever seen Wing Chun's "Siu Nim Tau", it isn't at all like the what most other systems would call a form at all ...it's totally stationary and doesn't involve any choreographed defenses against visualized attacks. Instead, it involves assuming a particular stance and structure, and performing a sequence of techniques almost like a recitation. Yet it is much more. Whether or not others call it a "form" is irrelevant to those who train it.

 

[Chris Parker]

Now to respond to Chris, I suppose what I had in mind in the OP was the traditional concept of a form or set, like a classical Japanese kata. Although, if you've ever seen Wing Chun's "Siu Nim Tau", it isn't at all like the what most other systems would call a form at all ...it's totally stationary and doesn't involve any choreographed defenses against visualized attacks. Instead, it involves assuming a particular stance and structure, and performing a sequence of techniques almost like a recitation. Yet it is much more. Whether or not others call it a "form" is irrelevant to those who train it.

Ah, but here's the thing, Geezer, what you're describing as "classical Japanese kata" probably isn't, which is what I'm asking... The long string of solo movements associated with the term "kata" (from Karate) are realistically a Chinese training form, when it comes down to it (being taken from Chinese systems, imported to Okinawa, then to Japan). Japanese kata tend towards paired sequences, with only a few forms (most commonly in Iai) being solo (although they are still sometimes done as paired forms as well, as Tachiai versions with bokuto/wooden swords, or in a few traditions where the Iai is actually designed to be paired, such as Shinmuso Hayashizaki Ryu or Asayama Ichiden Ryu).

With that in mind, the dominant teaching/transmission method for traditional Japanese martial arts is kata, and that makes up the bulk of the training. With myself training in traditional arts more than anything else, then, as you'd expect, there's a lot of kata in what I do. To put a figure on it, I'd say there's about 750 unarmed kata and 360 weaponry ones in everything I do.

Something I should probably mention, in regards to the discussion of "knowing/understanding" the kata, as it pertains to applications, is that the kata, in our methods, is the application. There is no kata without it, and it's pretty much what it is is what it is... there isn't anything overly "hidden" in the actions. You hit them here, it's a hit. You grab here, it's a grab. You throw someone, it's a throw. A big part of that, obviously, is the fact that most of them are done with a partner, but even with the solo form (again, typically Iai), the application is fairly simply what it is.

In terms of complexity, they range from a very few movements (some of the "simplest" are a single responce to a single attack, such as some of our sword kata which are little more [physically] than a counter thrust) through to much longer sequences of "give and take", such as some of the longer unarmed kata in one of the systems, which has an attacking sequence of two punches, two kicks, then another punch, followed by an attempted throw, and an escape from the counter to the throw, while the defending side has a blocking and evasive sequence, a counter to the throw, then move in for the finishing strikes and throw to end.

 

[Black/Red Block]

In my school we have 17 kata, this breaks down further to:

5 Traditional Kata - 3 Japanese, 2 Korean
12 Jissen Kata - 4 Ashihara, 5 Ashihara that I have amended & 3 Ashihara Kata that I have created

We don't do "self Defence" combinations etc or weapons or other forms because I feel everything needed IS in the Kata

Weapons - why, in the UK it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon so why train in Weapons Kata

"Self Defence" - why, I've never been grabbed by the wrist in my life, except by my Parents

I would like to add Goshin Jutsu No Kata (Kodakan) as practiced by senior JudoKa, but that's about it really

Good responses and good thread

 

[JamesGarr]

As I understand it, in my style of Lai Tung Pai kung fu we have 12 empty hand forms and 10 weapon forms. Most are fairly short, but a couple are long and complex. I'm not sure, but I believe our black sash students have tested on at least a dozen forms, and probably more. We do a lot with forms, but we also spend a great deal of time with drills, chi sau (sticky hands), sparring, and the mook jong (wooden dummy). Huge variety in our training, which is why I like it.

 

[geezer]

Weapons - why, in the UK it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon so why train in Weapons Kata

Thanks for your reply regarding your kata. The question of the relevance of weapons training is a whole different topic. I'm sure many do weapons training just because they enjoy it. In Wing Chun and PCE escrima, our weapons work augments our empty hands skills as well.

Finally, I'm sure you are correct that the need for weapons training varies depending on your locale. Still, friends tell me that there are some very rough neighborhoods in the UK where it is not at all unlikely to be threatened with a weapon.

Regardless of the laws, thugs will arm themselves with clubs and knives at the very least. In such an environment, it certainly wouldn't hurt to be proficient at defending oneself with ordinary objects such as an umbrella, cane, rolled up magazine, metal water bottle or any number of other "improvised weapons". While such skills can be learned to a degree as an extension of empty handed arts, it is also useful to train them specifically, as we do in Escrima.

 

[rainesr]

My first TSD School required a lot of (too many in my opinion) forms, we had to learn 22 open hand forms and 3 weapon forms for 1st Dan. after three schools I knew about 25 open hand forms. I now practice about 10 of them, they are the meat and potatoes of what I knew. Some of the forms were a waist of time.

In Kung Fu I learned 6 forms though move for move the were probably equal to 10 to 15 TSD forms. I now practice three of them, there was some repetition between schools and I forgot one.

I now take Silat/Kunetau, there re a large number of forms but some only consist of several movements others are as long as my previous Kung Fu forms. I know 6+ so far, learning my 7th. I learned applications from each art but nothing as comprehensive or functional as I have in Silat/Kunetau. I have learned more from these 6 small forms than all the other forms I have practiced in the past.

~Rob

 

[Balrog]

Songahm Taekwondo has 18 TKD forms, plus various forms for the weapons. The White Belt form has 18 moves, the 9th Degree Black Belt form has 99 moves.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Although I've learned many forms from different arts, I now predominately concentrate on a single form that contains 25 movement sequences which form the foundational principles of our system. From these principles we can draw many different applications and conclusions which are then tailored to each individual MSK KSD practitioner.

 

[WingChunIan]

I study Wing Chun, I perform the mook jong form and sui nim tao every day. I do chum kiu, biu jee, the baat cham dao and the pole at least once a week each. I also train elements from each of the forms in isolation every day. I don't think how many forms you know is important the original question was how many do you do?

 

[geezer]

I don't think how many forms you know is important the original question was how many do you do?

I agree, or perhaps I'd say, how well you do what you do. For example, in WC I'd favor someone who really has a good grip on Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu over someone who knows and does all the forms frequently, but badly.

 

[mook jong man]

I alternate between doing the Siu Nim Tau , Chum Kiu , and Biu Tze on one day and the next day I will just do Siu Nim Tau for about 20 minutes.
By the end of the 20 minute Siu Nim Tau session I am extremely relaxed and focused with a great feeling of connection to the ground.

The feet will also be quite numb and upon finishing the form and starting to walk my quadriceps will voice their complaint and make themselves known to me in no uncertain terms .

 

[geezer]

By the end of the 20 minute Siu Nim Tau session I am extremely relaxed and focused with a great feeling of connection to the ground ...The feet will also be quite numb and upon finishing the form and starting to walk my quadriceps will voice their complaint and make themselves known to me in no uncertain terms .

I get that too. Thought it was just 'cause I'm getting old. LOL

 

[WingChunIan]

I agree, or perhaps I'd say, how well you do what you do. For example, in WC I'd favor someone who really has a good grip on Siu Nim Tau and Chum Kiu over someone who knows and does all the forms frequently, but badly.

Totally agree, quality over quantity every time. My post was more aimed at the fact that folks seemed to be talking about how many forms they knew or are in their system as opposed to how many they actually train. I like to think that I do all of the forms well. Of course you can always be better and I constantly find areas that I want to improve on, hence the continuous training.

 

[chinto]

I am a karateka, and no kata, no karate. that is where you learn the system. I am training in two systems. both are Okinawan and both have similar katas. the traditional Okinawan kata have at least 5 techniques hidden in each movement. so there is more then several life times of experience combined in the kata!