For All The Taekwondo Bashers The Real Truth On Taekwondo From My View

[Steve]

Oh if we're going to go there, this thread is going to be locked by noon. Because I've never advocated hurting a kid or beating a kid (which you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference...and if that's "unwilling" instead, it makes your position even weaker). I've already gotten a warning from the mods for the criticisms I can give based on your comments in this thread, so I won't give them again. But I don't see you having any sort of moral highground at all, nor do I see you as any sort of role model to look up to. In fact, it's quite the opposite. The more you tell me I'm wrong, based on what I know about you, the more I'm thinking I'm correct.

Okay. Have a nice day.

 

[Acronym]

As someone who trained TKD for 6 years, all the bashing is well deserved IMO. You can use the techniques, obviously, but the training deserves every bashing it gets, and then some!

 

[dvcochran]

As someone who trained TKD for 6 years, all the bashing is well deserved IMO. You can use the techniques, obviously, but the training deserves every bashing it gets, and then some!

That opinion would have to be Very school/instructor specific. Trying to paint all TKD as bad is unrealistic.
What style/system TKD do you have experience in?

 

[Acronym]

That opinion would have to be Very school/instructor specific. Trying to paint all TKD as bad is unrealistic.

Not really. The curriculums are independent of instructors.

 

[Acronym]

I can qualify my statement since we had a guy who came from a TKD +Kickboxing background. He learned the kicks from TaeKwonDo but not patterns, and did both ITF and Kickboxing sparring.

Same level of athlete, same amount of years training.. Kicked my butt sparring. Guys who've trained far longer than him, equal athletic abilities but only TKD school I held my own against for 6 years.. Every single one. Suddenly I faced head movement, real boxing, and yet the same speedy kicks. It was not a pleasent experience. It felt like I was a car from the 80s facing a modern Tesla.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I can qualify my statement since we had a guy who came from a TKD +Kickboxing background. He learned the kicks from TaeKwonDo but not patterns, and did both ITF and Kickboxing sparring.

Same level of athlete, same amount of years training.. Kicked my butt sparring. Guys who've trained far longer than him, equal athletic abilities but only TKD school I held my own against for 6 years.. Every single one. Suddenly I faced head movement, real boxing, and yet the same speedy kicks. It was not a pleasent experience. It felt like I was a car from the 80s facing a modern Tesla.

Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.

1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.

2: Your school was not training you guys properly for an actual fight/sparring.

3: Your hypothesis-that TKD does not train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.
3B: your style of TKD (idk if you did ITF, WT, Norris-TKD or what) doesn't train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.

If you want to provide experiential proof for this, you would need a lot more than to extrapolate off your experience sparring that one guy. Couple steps that you'd have to do:

A: Have other people in your dojo spar him (I assume this happened but you didn't mention it). If you don't, then for whatever reason his style could just counter yours.

B: Spar with other kickboxers from whatever gym he learned kickboxing from. This will tell you if he was an exception for his school/more skilled than his level should be for sparring.

C: Spar with people from other TKD dojangs. Ideally from multiple styles, and not your 'sister dojangs'. This will tell you if your school is worse than TKD in general.

D: Spar with people from other kickboxing clubs/gyms. This will tell you if his school is better than the average kickboxing club.

For extra fun, there's also a 4th option of what your experience could mean.

4: TKD/your school is about as good as other schools, but kickboxing (or his specific school) is leagues above everything else in your area. To test this, you would need to add steps E and F.

E: Spar with people from other styles (karate/MT/Kenpo/WC).

F: Have people from other styles spar him.

Basically, it amounts to-you need to spar a huge number of people, both in and out of your style, to figure out if your statement has any actual validity.

 

[Acronym]

Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.

1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.

2: Your school was not training you guys properly for an actual fight/sparring.
.

Both are true, although 1 is a bit of a hyperbole. had I not wasted half my time on patterns I would have more likely been able to match him in sparring.

 

[Buka]

I've visited and trained in quite a few schools over the years. TKD schools as well.

I have yet to see many schools that train the same way.

 

[Acronym]

Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.

1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.

2: Your school was not training you guys properly for an actual fight/sparring.

3: Your hypothesis-that TKD does not train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.
3B: your style of TKD (idk if you did ITF, WT, Norris-TKD or what) doesn't train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.

If you want to provide experiential proof for this, you would need a lot more than to extrapolate off your experience sparring that one guy. Couple steps that you'd have to do:

A: Have other people in your dojo spar him (I assume this happened but you didn't mention it). If you don't, then for whatever reason his style could just counter yours.

B: Spar with other kickboxers from whatever gym he learned kickboxing from. This will tell you if he was an exception for his school/more skilled than his level should be for sparring.

C: Spar with people from other TKD dojangs. Ideally from multiple styles, and not your 'sister dojangs'. This will tell you if your school is worse than TKD in general.

D: Spar with people from other kickboxing clubs/gyms. This will tell you if his school is better than the average kickboxing club.

For extra fun, there's also a 4th option of what your experience could mean.

4: TKD/your school is about as good as other schools, but kickboxing (or his specific school) is leagues above everything else in your area. To test this, you would need to add steps E and F.

E: Spar with people from other styles (karate/MT/Kenpo/WC).

F: Have people from other styles spar him.

Basically, it amounts to-you need to spar a huge number of people, both in and out of your style, to figure out if your statement has any actual validity.

It doesn't matter. If two people of equal kicking skills kickbox, and only one of them knows how to box, the guy who knows how to box will most likely get on top.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Both are true, although 1 is a bit of a hyperbole. had I not wasted half my time on patterns I would have more likely been able to match him in sparring.

But the point is you can't know which option is correct until you perform tests (examples listed below in my other post) to determine it. He may have been good, or you may just suck. Or your school may just suck. Or your style may just suck. But you don't know from just sparring him and your dojang-mates.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It doesn't matter. If two people of equal kicking skills kickbox, and only one of them knows how to box, the guy who knows how to box will most likely get on top.

Yup, but the question is why. Is it inherit in tkd that you don't learn how to box, like you're suggesting?

 

[Acronym]

Yup, but the question is why. Is it inherit in tkd that you don't learn how to box, like you're suggesting?

Yes, it is inherent. So what happens when you faces someone who boxes is first of all a very hard time reading the shots because you aren't used to chains of punches. You also don't develop any boxing defense, all you can do is to stand side ways and try to fend them off with your legs. Even Raymond Daniels who is a far superior kicker to everybody he faced, got trashed by two Muay Thai fighters three times in a row, and stood no chance.

It looks like this

or even worse like this

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes, it is inherent. So what happens when you faces someone who boxes is first of all a very hard time reading the shots because you aren't used to chains of punches. You also don't develop any boxing defense, all you can do is to stand side ways and try to fend them off with your legs. Even Raymond Daniels who is a far superior kicker to everybody he faced, got trashed by two Muay Thai fighters three times in a row, and stood no chance.

I don't think you understand my question. I'm not asking you if it's inherent in TKD. You already clearly believe that. I'm asking why you think that. Is this experience just from your own school, or have you gone to other TKD schools, and seen how they fight/sparred with them to actually determine this? With those other schools, are they in the same subset of TKD, or have they been different subsets? How many schools have you gone to to determine this is inherent in TKD?
Have you gone to TKD tournaments, in different styles of TKD (more than just kukkiwon)? Is this your experience from participating in those as well?

If your experience is just from your school/sister TKD schools, then you don't know that it's inherent in TKD. Just that it's inherent in your school. And keep in mind, I've got no skin in the game-TKD is one of the few styles I've never even tried. It's just important to realize whether an issue is person-specific, school-specific or style-specific, because recognizing that helps your figure out how to improve.

 

[Acronym]

I don't think you understand my question. I'm not asking you if it's inherent in TKD. You already clearly believe that. I'm asking why you think that. Is this experience just from your own school, or have you gone to other TKD schools, and seen how they fight/sparred with them to actually determine this? .

Yes, I have. I'm also well read on the subject. They can't box unless they do a hybrid school, and if they do, my criticism does not apply since it's no longer a TKD or Karate school, but a hybrid one.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yes, I have. I'm also well read on the subject. They can't box unless they do a hybrid school, and if they do, my criticism does not apply since it's no longer a TKD or Karate school, but a hybrid one.

Okay. This is what you should have posted in the beginning-you going to multiple TKD schools is the relevant information for your point, not your experience against one kickboxer. How many TKD schools have you been to?

 

[drop bear]

Your experience doesn't actually provide evidence for what you're stating. It suggests one of the below is true, but doesn't state which one.

1: The guy with the TKD & kickboxing background was an exceptional athlete/exceptionally skilled for his skill level.

2: Your school was not training you guys properly for an actual fight/sparring.

3: Your hypothesis-that TKD does not train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.
3B: your style of TKD (idk if you did ITF, WT, Norris-TKD or what) doesn't train you properly for an actual fight/sparring.

If you want to provide experiential proof for this, you would need a lot more than to extrapolate off your experience sparring that one guy. Couple steps that you'd have to do:

A: Have other people in your dojo spar him (I assume this happened but you didn't mention it). If you don't, then for whatever reason his style could just counter yours.

B: Spar with other kickboxers from whatever gym he learned kickboxing from. This will tell you if he was an exception for his school/more skilled than his level should be for sparring.

C: Spar with people from other TKD dojangs. Ideally from multiple styles, and not your 'sister dojangs'. This will tell you if your school is worse than TKD in general.

D: Spar with people from other kickboxing clubs/gyms. This will tell you if his school is better than the average kickboxing club.

For extra fun, there's also a 4th option of what your experience could mean.

4: TKD/your school is about as good as other schools, but kickboxing (or his specific school) is leagues above everything else in your area. To test this, you would need to add steps E and F.

E: Spar with people from other styles (karate/MT/Kenpo/WC).

F: Have people from other styles spar him.

Basically, it amounts to-you need to spar a huge number of people, both in and out of your style, to figure out if your statement has any actual validity.

Has there been any evidence on the TKD side of this argument other than anecdotes?

 

[Acronym]

Okay. This is what you should have posted in the beginning-you going to multiple TKD schools is the relevant information for your point, not your experience against one kickboxer. How many TKD schools have you been to?

What difference does it make? I know what's formally part of the art and what's not . I wrote that schools that are hybrid do not apply, and that goes without saying. I wasn't saying that hybrid TKD schools deserve the bashing they get.

You agree with me that not knowing how to box is most likely a crucial component, so why are you arguing with a proposition you agree with?

 

[Acronym]

Has there been any evidence on the TKD side of this argument other than anecdotes?

Evidence of what?

 

[drop bear]

Evidence of what?

That it stands up to par with other modern striking styles.

I know trying to get anything other than anecdotes from your average poster is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone. So after 8 pages of what I imagine is personal opinion and experience to suddenly demand data. Just would seem a bit one sided.

 

[Acronym]

That it stands up to par with other modern striking styles.
.

Raymond Daniels who is both Kempo and TKD has more world championship titles than I have underwear and you saw the massacre against good MT fighters. I can assure you Daniels kicking prowess is at the very very top, and his hands aren't bad by TMA standards.