skribs
Grandmaster
My goal is to not get into a real fight. If I do, I'm going to fight dirty.
For All The Taekwondo Bashers The Real Truth On Taekwondo From My View
My goal is to not get into a real fight. If I do, I'm going to fight dirty.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I hear a lot of people say that. What do you mean when you say “fight dirty?”
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skribs
Grandmaster
Aiming for the side of the knee or the groin, using any weapons I have handy (including my shoes).
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I should have asked earlier, but also, what’s a “real fight?”
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
To put your question in context, if you asking if a purely WT fighter that knows nothing else would need to change some things then I would say likely yes. But you are talking about a very, very small % of the TKD population. Elite in their sport pursuit like an Olympic gymnast or runner. And they would have that 'killers edge' and drive and a physique well above the average person working in their favor.
A more rounded curriculum is taught to the average TKD consumer so they should be as ready as the next style.
I am certain you know how individual this question gets. The person's life/lifestyle experiences, school, and instructor(s) are much larger variables than picking a specific style.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
So. Tkd goes out the window? Just gonna fight dirty. How much experienced do you have with dirty fighting?
skribs
Grandmaster
A fight with real consequences.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
What sort of consequences would you consider to be 'real'? To be clear, I'm asking because, while "death" is obviously pretty real, it's an unlikely consequence. Statistically, even if you're being mugged or assaulted, you are likely to survive even if you've never learned to fight. Statistically, even if you get into a "street fight" no one is trying to kill anyone else. So, I'm just trying to get a handle on what you consider "real consequences."
I know I wasn't asked, but I consider a "fight with real consequences" to mean a fight I can't choose to avoid, where the price of giving up is just as bad or worse than the price of fighting.
Maybe a year or two ago I was threatened by a homeless man. He was a big dude, maybe 6'3" or a little taller, and looked strong. He was unarmed as far as I could tell, but was clearly suffering from schizophrenia. He was paranoid and angry and I'm sure he thought I was one of the lizard people or something. Fortunately a friend of mine was nearby, he walked over and together we warned the guy away. Violence averted (thankfully -- that dude was big and crazy). But let's say my friend hadn't been around? What if big crazy dude attacked me? You can't really reason with somebody who is experiencing hallucinations and paranoia, and it's not like he wanted my wallet or anything I could give him.
Now that I'm married, I've got to watch out for my wife as well. When we have kids, that's an additional group of people who I have to be able to protect. I might have been able to run away from crazy homeless dude if he had attacked me. But I'm not going to do that if it means leaving my wife with the baby stroller while I bravely run away. Fortunately I live in a very pro-gun state, where we've got Constitutional Carry. If I get too worried I'll just get a gun (well, another gun).
In a street fight scenario, TKD gives you really effective kicks. And most people aren't prepared at all for an effective head kick. And TKD doesn't make you worse at punching or grappling. You'll probably remain exactly as good as you were before, except you'll be in a lot better physical shape and you can kick dudes in the face. Against most people, in fights you can't avoid, that may very well be enough.
Maybe a year or two ago I was threatened by a homeless man. He was a big dude, maybe 6'3" or a little taller, and looked strong. He was unarmed as far as I could tell, but was clearly suffering from schizophrenia. He was paranoid and angry and I'm sure he thought I was one of the lizard people or something. Fortunately a friend of mine was nearby, he walked over and together we warned the guy away. Violence averted (thankfully -- that dude was big and crazy). But let's say my friend hadn't been around? What if big crazy dude attacked me? You can't really reason with somebody who is experiencing hallucinations and paranoia, and it's not like he wanted my wallet or anything I could give him.
Now that I'm married, I've got to watch out for my wife as well. When we have kids, that's an additional group of people who I have to be able to protect. I might have been able to run away from crazy homeless dude if he had attacked me. But I'm not going to do that if it means leaving my wife with the baby stroller while I bravely run away. Fortunately I live in a very pro-gun state, where we've got Constitutional Carry. If I get too worried I'll just get a gun (well, another gun).
In a street fight scenario, TKD gives you really effective kicks. And most people aren't prepared at all for an effective head kick. And TKD doesn't make you worse at punching or grappling. You'll probably remain exactly as good as you were before, except you'll be in a lot better physical shape and you can kick dudes in the face. Against most people, in fights you can't avoid, that may very well be enough.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'd call these (e.g., being unable to avoid a fight) conditions of the fight, not consequences. Consequences, by definition, are outcomes. The second one is a little closer to a consequence, but only because you believe that the stakes are very high. I think that reality vs belief is a little at odds here. As I said, statistically, an assault or a fight is very scary, but your odds of death or permanent injury are really quite low, even if you don't fight back at all. Though, in the moment, it may not feel that way.
I think it's healthy to be wary of folks who are clearly having some hallucinations or delusions. However, once again, this isn't a consequence, it's a condition. And again, while this probably felt really scary to you at the time, what happened to you (nothing) is what usually happens. Statistically, only about 3 to 5% of violent acts can be attributed to people with mental illness, and the reality is that the person you were afraid of is actually the one who is most at risk for being violently attacked. People with serious mental illness are statistically over 10 times as likely as the general population to be victims of violent crime.
Sure. Just shoot the guy. That always works out really well.
Sorry. Can you remind me how often you've put this to the test? Just want to be clear... is this theoretical commentary or based on your experience fighting in the streets.
And to bring this back around to the main point, how does your training prepare you for this, if you can't manage a well rounded MMA fighter who is at roughly the same size and skill level as you? I'm not talking UFC here. It was a comment by @skribs along these lines that prompted my initial question.
You don't know the consequences until the fight is over, though.
To give context, I'm a criminal defense attorney. I know exactly how bad fights can go because I've represented people who got in them. Sure, most don't end up with hospitalization or death, but some do. The problem is, you don't know how bad the outcome will be when the attack begins. Crazy homeless guy might punch you a few times, knock you down, and then run off. That's 100% possible. It might even be the likely outcome. But he might also smash your head into the curb until your skull splits open. You don't have any way to know until it's over. That's why the smart thing to do is avoid those fights if at all possible, and if you can't avoid them, you don't screw around.
I haven't been in a "street fight" since junior high. But I know how I was when I started TKD. We spar a fair amount at my school, and I know that when I was a white belt, the black belts could tag me with any kick they wanted, any time they wanted. I take my black belt test in December, and now sparring white belts makes me feel like a character from a video game.
As far as taking on MMA fighters, I wouldn't want to do that. Your average person (who, proportionately, will make up the great majority of the people in average fights) doesn't have any training in any martial art. They aren't good boxers, they aren't good grapplers, they aren't good clinchers, they aren't good kickers. With TKD you become a very good kicker, so that's an advantage over the average person. One big advantage is probably all you need. But an MMA fighter has to be at least decent at everything. If you can keep the fight at kicking range you'll do well, but as soon as he realizes you're a better kicker than he is, he will try to get closer. MMA fighters are by definition, not average. Your chance of running into one "in the wild" and getting into a fight that can't be avoided is pretty rare.
To give context, I'm a criminal defense attorney. I know exactly how bad fights can go because I've represented people who got in them. Sure, most don't end up with hospitalization or death, but some do. The problem is, you don't know how bad the outcome will be when the attack begins. Crazy homeless guy might punch you a few times, knock you down, and then run off. That's 100% possible. It might even be the likely outcome. But he might also smash your head into the curb until your skull splits open. You don't have any way to know until it's over. That's why the smart thing to do is avoid those fights if at all possible, and if you can't avoid them, you don't screw around.
I haven't been in a "street fight" since junior high. But I know how I was when I started TKD. We spar a fair amount at my school, and I know that when I was a white belt, the black belts could tag me with any kick they wanted, any time they wanted. I take my black belt test in December, and now sparring white belts makes me feel like a character from a video game.
As far as taking on MMA fighters, I wouldn't want to do that. Your average person (who, proportionately, will make up the great majority of the people in average fights) doesn't have any training in any martial art. They aren't good boxers, they aren't good grapplers, they aren't good clinchers, they aren't good kickers. With TKD you become a very good kicker, so that's an advantage over the average person. One big advantage is probably all you need. But an MMA fighter has to be at least decent at everything. If you can keep the fight at kicking range you'll do well, but as soon as he realizes you're a better kicker than he is, he will try to get closer. MMA fighters are by definition, not average. Your chance of running into one "in the wild" and getting into a fight that can't be avoided is pretty rare.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
My eyes have been getting worse for years...
skribs
Grandmaster
You're the one who brought up the idea of a "real fight." Why do you keep saying I'm the one that brought it up?
I know based on Taekwondo guys I've seen in MMA fights and street fights. I personally have managed to avoid getting into fights.
I'm going to echo what TKD eagle said. Someone who picks a fight with me that I can't get out of, I'm going to assume Terminator rules apply. If they can't be reasoned with or bargained with, I assume they will not stop until I'm dead. I will do everything in my power to make sure that doesn't happen, by eliminating their ability to continue the attack. At such point in time as the attack stops, so will my defense.
Taekwondo doesn't go out the window. WT sparring does, in favor of techniques that aren't allowed in WT sparring. A lot of these are techniques I've learned in Taekwondo, but don't use in sparring.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I brought it up because I was curious whether or not (and why) you think that it's reasonable to believe TKD artists would need to adapt to an MMA bout, but not to a "real fight". Still curious.
So, if I understand your points, in a real fight, you aren't going to use your TKD. You'll just go terminator? I mean, I see that you're saying the TKD doesn't go out the window... but do you train terminator fighting in your school? Seems like a no brainer to say, if we agree you'd have to adjust to an MMA ring, you'd also have to adjust to a terminator rules fight, too. Right?
skribs
Grandmaster
I'm not going terminator, I'm assuming they are.
The difference is in preparation. I can adjust my training to prepare for an MMA fight. A real fight you don't have that luxury.
For example, if I schedule an MMA fight for next Thursday, then I can try and work takedown defense and head punches into my game. If I'm fighting for my life, then I don't have the time to add those things into my training. Thus, I have to use what I know.
What I know are effective techniques. There are holes in my game. I recognize this, but as of yet I haven't rectified it. However, I do have legitimate techniques that can give me a chance.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
If it's not possible to prepare for a real fight, why train at all? Your logic is making me dizzy. Said the other way, if you can't hang in a fight against a person who has roughly the same degree of training, the same size, etc... what makes you think you're at all prepared for a "real fight"?
Edit: To clarify, I think your choice of words was very apropros. You said that Terminator rules apply. This is, IMO, very insightful, because it acknowledges that there are ALWAYS rules... whether it's a statutory rule, a social rule, or a competitive rule. So, you acknowledge that you'd need to modify your game for one rule set, but not for another that seems even further removed from your actual training.
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skribs
Grandmaster
If my logic is making you dizzy, you may want to sit down or put me on ignore, because it's pretty simple.
Unless I'm mistaken, you don't just get put into an MMA fight. It's not like I will be walking to the grocery store and an octagonal cage will materialize around me with an MMA fighter in it. You typically prepare for them. This gives you time to adjust your training for that fight.
If someone jumps you on the street with a knife, you can't say, "let's duel in 2 months, after I've trained knife defense." You're stuck with whatever training you have.
Let's take for example this guy who had road rage. He got out of his car, came up to mine and started arguing with me, even threatened to beat me up. He was blocking me from driving off. He decided to back away when I pulled out my cell phone and started to call the cops.
Had he followed through on his threat to "beat me up", I would have had no issue using my car as a weapon. I don't know how much violence he intends to inflict when he wants to beat me up, and I'd have no issue using whatever means I have available to defend myself.
If I didn't have a weapon available, what do I have? I have extremely good kicks, I have decent punches and sweeps. I'm going to try to kicl sensitive areas that are usually banned in most competitions, throw my attacker into something hard, or find an improvised weapon. I am better able to do all of this because of my Taekwondo, than if I had no training.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Sure. But that doesn't really make sense. Does it? Not the advance warning part... the preparation part. It's the difference between planning for something that will happen versus planning for something that might happen.
Let's say for sake of discussion, it's something less dire. So, instead of fighting, it's something like running a 10k/6.2 miles. Most people can run without any additional training (just like fighting). Few can just pick up and run a 10k without some preparation. But the question is, what difference does it make whether you are preparing for a 10k you know you will be running, or you're choosing to prepare to run a 10k that may come at any point? The logic here seems to be that it makes perfect sense to prepare for a 10k you know is coming, like fighting in MMA. But, for whatever reason, there's just nothing to be done about a 10k that might happen any time.
I'm suggesting that the preparation should look pretty similar... if you're acknowledging you need to prepare for fights in one context, it just stands to reason that you would need to do so in another more random, more volatile, less restrictive context.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I just don't think it's logic. Don't get me wrong. I'm tracking what you're saying. I was trying to be polite. If someone jumps you on a street, and you can't even handle yourself in a duel that's 2 months away, what makes you think you can handle yourself without any warning in a much more dire situation? That's just not a reasonable position to take. It defies logic.
Edit: I guess I should ask, how does your TKD training help you prepare to run someone over with your car?
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