Fixing the training model

[FriedRice]

And before I get the hate replies... yes I do think the MMA training will get you closer to actual street fighting than other arts. (it will get you even closer if you can identify what it lacks for the street fighting situation, and adjust your training accordingly... if street fighting is where you want to go)

Can you be more specific? Say name 5 techniques of street fighting that an MMA fighter needs to learn.

 

[wab25]

Faber was one of the Fighters who was there.

Are we talking about the same article? The fighters in the article, and in the video are:Marcus Davis, Rashad Evans, Forrest Griffin, and Brian Stann. Maybe Faber is uncredited and I don't recognize him... Anyway, sure, that may have been staged, they may have been play acting. But, the MMA fighters that got into the fight at the gas station were not acting, they got jumped by drunks and one was severely hurt with a 2x4. At the gas station, the MMA guys responded very much like the guys "acting" in the Marine video.

Can you be more specific? Say name 5 techniques of street fighting that an MMA fighter needs to learn.

Do they have to be techniques? Really, 5?

1. Awareness of the people involved. You need to learn to be aware of how many people you are fighting, and where they are. While there isn't a really good answer for this problem in any art... these guys never even made the effort to notice any one other than one opponent.
2. Awareness of environment. They didn't use anything in the environments to help. They didn't even look for things to use... just immediately went into 1 on 1 sparring mode, circling to give the other opponents (the ones with the weapons) their back...
3. Decisiveness and commitment. Actually Brian Stann's first fight in Strike Force was a great example. He was up against a guy that out classed him... when the bell rang, Stann charged in, and KOed him before the other fighter could get his bearings. This is exactly what the Marines did to the MMA fighters, exactly what the advice to the MMA guys was and what the drunks did at the gas station.
4. How to use a knife.
5. How to use a club.
6. How to use a gun.
7. How to de-escalate.
8. When to run away.

 

[dvcochran]

They all teach something, but to be more specific, any art that suggests it isn't suitable for mma because it's too complicated or deadly is likely relevant to this discussion.

Biased a little are we?

 

[drop bear]

Give us examples of the arts you imply never teach anything?

It is arts where results dont matter.

 

[dvcochran]

It is arts where results dont matter.

Like ballet?

 

[drop bear]

Biased a little are we?

You don't get to have multiple observable self defence situations. So MMA is about the best source for analysis.

That isn't bias. That is scientific method.

Basically self defence falls in to the same category as psycic powers. It is based on what we think should work and ancecdotal evidence. And to some people it appears to work.

But when psycic powers are tested scientifically we can discern what does work and what doesn't.

I mean it doesn't have to only be MMA but it has to work somewhere other than in strories or on your friends.And It has to work enough times to not be chance.

 

[drop bear]

Like ballet?

In ballet results are judged on athetics. There is a universal standard. It is not supposed to reflect anything other than ballet.

 

[drop bear]

Like ballet?

But if I was to say ballet teaches coordination or fitness or flexibility. All of that could be tested. And then results would matter.

If we do a weight loss camp. We track peoples weight loss. Because results matter.

 

[dvcochran]

You don't get to have multiple observable self defence situations. So MMA is about the best source for analysis.

That isn't bias. That is scientific method.

Basically self defence falls in to the same category as psycic powers. It is based on what we think should work and ancecdotal evidence. And to some people it appears to work.

But when psycic powers are tested scientifically we can discern what does work and what doesn't.

I mean it doesn't have to only be MMA but it has to work somewhere other than in strories or on your friends.And It has to work enough times to not be chance.

I agree but it is also anecdotal to say Martial Arts don't work for SD. It is true to say that MMA isn't going to work in every situation just like MA. The skills, experience and makeup of the individual are much more important every time.

 

[drop bear]

I agree but it is also anecdotal to say Martial Arts don't work for SD. It is true to say that MMA isn't going to work in every situation just like MA. The skills, experience and makeup of the individual are much more important every time.

Yeah but you are arguing semantics.

No evidence that insert style, system or technique works any better than dumb luck.

Is in laymans terms doesn't work.

If your argument that the individual is more important in defining success. Then you are suggesting martial arts doesnt work.

If you threw a bunch of guys on a horse. Some would be able to automatically ride better than others. If you expected me to believe horse riding training works they should all ride consistantly better.

 

[Steve]

I agree but it is also anecdotal to say Martial Arts don't work for SD. It is true to say that MMA isn't going to work in every situation just like MA. The skills, experience and makeup of the individual are much more important every time.

the key in this discussion is try and think about how your skills are being tested. What are the behaviors and skills you are being pushed to deliver? In BJJ, judo, and wrestling, it’s very clear what you are and are not learning. And because the skills you are learning are consistent with the test, you (as in you the individual) can be confident in your development.

In aikido, the skills you are developing are expert demonstrator. In some styles of karate, it is expert kata performer. In ninjutsu, it’s... well, truly, I have no idea what one learns. Point is, the skills you’re really learning are the things you’re actually doing.

And no one does self defense. Everyone does something to develop relevant skills that can be applied infrequently in a self defense context. Whether that’s soldiering, policing, bouncing, or competing.

 

[marques]

You don't get to have multiple observable self defence situations. So MMA is about the best source for analysis.

I am sad I need to agree with you. I hate a few things around MMA (extreme weight loss, trashtalk, distorced faces...), but the cage is really a lab to be exploited by a range sciences. What happens there is well documented, measurable, comparable, countable... Fighters and his training is not necessary a secret and so on.

Should we have the same for self defence and we would have less to none 'local heros', I mean egos...

 

[drop bear]

I am sad I need to agree with you. I hate a few things around MMA (extreme weight loss, trashtalk, distorced faces...), but the cage is really a lab to be exploited by a range sciences. What happens there is well documented, measurable, comparable, countable... Fighters and his training is not necessary a secret and so on.

Should we have the same for self defence and we would have less to none 'local heros', I mean egos...

Smaller shows have less hype and will show first and second time fighters that might be a bit more self defency anyway.

 

[FriedRice]

Are we talking about the same article? The fighters in the article, and in the video are:Marcus Davis, Rashad Evans, Forrest Griffin, and Brian Stann. Maybe Faber is uncredited and I don't recognize him... Anyway, sure, that may have been staged, they may have been play acting.

I'm pretty sure that Faber was there for one of these sessions as I saw a commercial like excerpt from it during a really old UFC event. I remembered Griffin and Stann there too.

But are you sure you're familiar with the Marines' training though? You know it only takes like 18 months to qualify to be a Marine, right? And that includes boot camp. You think they spend all day training chopsocky and charging straw dummies with rifle & bayonet like in the movies? They have a ton of other things to train, especially their primary weapon which is a badass assault rifle and a bunch of other state of the art weaponry & gadgets. And to top it all off, they train MCMAP....which is basically MMA Lite.....because real MMA will crack their heads, sprain & break their bones, etc...and what good are injured soldiers? Why would they even bother training that hard at H2H when they have a freakin' M4 + radio to call in air support + supply trucks full of ammo? For that slight chance in a million that they ran out of ammo and would have to bust some heads with their chopsocky? Remember Black Hawk Down?

Dude, that was a PR move by the UFC + USMC to recruit for the post-911 wars in Afghan/Iraq, it was so obvious. Maybe you don't get many Marines and soldiers rolling through your school because they want more tougher training like, MMA. We get lots of soldiers and when they're new, they ain't anything special....and they certainly aren't at Combat Sport Athlete level, let alone UFC Champion levels. And our gym is nothing in comparison to Faber's UFC Champion producing gym neither, so that's so easy to see it was all BS to make the Marines look good.

But, the MMA fighters that got into the fight at the gas station were not acting, they got jumped by drunks and one was severely hurt with a 2x4. At the gas station, the MMA guys responded very much like the guys "acting" in the Marine video.

Are you talking about some really old video of some Brazilian MMA fighter in Brazil hitting on some dude's girl, so that dude and his buddies jumped him? I never said that MMA fighters are invincible, especially if they got jumped with weapons. I'm still confident to say that most SD training is like Larping though in comparison to MMA training. I mean c'mon, there are good reasons why that it's usually the weaker, older and out of shape men in SD classes with women, old women and hot chicks there....while you don't see many of these (if any) in MMA class. This may sound rude, but it's the dead truth.

And who was that MMA fighter that got whopped at that gas station anyway? Was he any good? Was he drunk? On drugs. Having a good time out on the town? There are lots of possible factors. I vaguely remember that video.

Do they have to be techniques? Really, 5?

1. Awareness of the people involved. You need to learn to be aware of how many people you are fighting, and where they are. While there isn't a really good answer for this problem in any art... these guys never even made the effort to notice any one other than one opponent.

You're just fixated on that ONE, video, like it represents everything there is to represent about all MMA fighters' capabilities in the streets.

Awareness of environment. They didn't use anything in the environments to help. They didn't even look for things to use... just immediately went into 1 on 1 sparring mode, circling to give the other opponents (the ones with the weapons) their back...

He was probably drunk and **** happens I guess.

1. [*]Decisiveness and commitment. Actually Brian Stann's first fight in Strike Force was a great example. He was up against a guy that out classed him... when the bell rang, Stann charged in, and KOed him before the other fighter could get his bearings. This is exactly what the Marines did to the MMA fighters, exactly what the advice to the MMA guys was and what the drunks did at the gas station.

So you're saying to charge and suckerpunch anyone who's approaching you in public at night and knock them the **** out? Remember, he may not have known that this was the girl's hubby or something. And Brian Stann had the bell ring to start the round, while here, you're just teaching people to go straight to prison for trying to kill people.

1. How to use a knife.
2. How to use a club.
3. How to use a gun.
4. How to de-escalate.
5. When to run away.

Most of this is just common sense. I mean if you want to pay someone to teach you some elaborate Larping scenarios, then I guess it can help. I'd rather just train to punch & kick people in the head for the KO and move to the next.

Of course the gun beats everything, and I'm already into prepping, carrying, etc.

 

[JR 137]

You don't get to have multiple observable self defence situations. So MMA is about the best source for analysis.

That isn't bias. That is scientific method.

Basically self defence falls in to the same category as psycic powers. It is based on what we think should work and ancecdotal evidence. And to some people it appears to work.

But when psycic powers are tested scientifically we can discern what does work and what doesn't.

I mean it doesn't have to only be MMA but it has to work somewhere other than in strories or on your friends.And It has to work enough times to not be chance.

What if your friends are a bunch of guys who go out looking for fights at the bars on Friday and Saturday nights? And they’re pretty good at fighting? You you beat their a$$es every time they step to you, which has happened several times in their drunken stupors?

 

[drop bear]

What if your friends are a bunch of guys who go out looking for fights at the bars on Friday and Saturday nights? And they’re pretty good at fighting? You you beat their a$$es every time they step to you, which has happened several times in their drunken stupors?

What if psychic Phil really nailed my reading. And cured my cold.

 

[JR 137]

What if psychic Phil really nailed my reading. And cured my cold.

He was 100% on with my reading. How’d he know I was going to make some decisions yesterday?

 

[Hanzou]

No, bjj shows quicker results because it is grappling training aimed at submission, thus techniques can be trained with full resistance without hurting anyone.

Yet Aikido is also a grappling system with submissions, and it supposedly takes years to just become functional.

What's the difference?

 

[Martial D]

Yet Aikido is also a grappling system with submissions, and it supposedly takes years to just become functional.

What's the difference?

A fighting system vs performance art.

 

[DaveB]

Yet Aikido is also a grappling system with submissions, and it supposedly takes years to just become functional.

What's the difference?

Aikido never framed itself (at least to my knowledge) as any kind of dueling art.
It makes use of limb and joint manipulation but it's main focus is harmonising with the opponents force. A method of dealing with conflict given form.

I'm not saying it's magic that is super effective given enough training, just that it has a million and one differences, not least of all that it's not intended for duelling.