Fixing the training model

[JR 137]

Lombardi’s What It Takes to be Number 1 probably deserves its own thread, but I found its appropriate here, with all the talk of winning and all.

I think it’s 100% on the money. My take on it is what is winning? If all it is is your hand raised at the conclusion of the match, that’s a pretty shallow definition.

My idea of winning is giving it everything you’ve got. When everyone’s left and you’re alone looking in the mirror, you know you did at least everything you know you’re capable of. Even more, you surprised yourself and outdid what you thought you could do. That’s winning.

When I compete, the judges will score however they want. I can’t control that. The competition field might suck, might be world-class, or somewhere in between. I can’t control that. All I can do is get out there and do my thing to the best of my ability. I do that, and I won. Anything short of that, and I lost. I’d rather get completely outclassed and walk away knowing I left it all on the floor than beat a bunch of bums without breaking a sweat.

Winning isn’t everything. It’s the only thing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Everybody will lose during skill development time. After you have developed your skill, you should not lose that easy. If a white belt BJJ guy can choke out a black belt BJJ instructor all the time, there is something wrong with that BJJ black belt instructor's training.

Totally agree on both statements. The only way a black belt BJJ instructor could lose all the time like that is if the White Belt BJJ guy has other fighting experience, which skews the assumed skill level that a "White belt" would have.

Mike Tyson will never say, "I don't mind losing."

Based on this, we would probably be surprised if we asked him that question.
Mike Tyson: "You Have To Feel Comfortable Being Uncomfortable."

He probably wouldn't have said it in his youth, but he definitely has a different perspective on life and hardships now.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Winning is a habit.

Old saying said, "The winning is given to those who has prepared."

One of my students wants to compete in a tournament in 2 months. I told him that he will need at least 3 months of serious training time. He said that he just want to test where he is. I told him that he should not compete in tournament unless he believes that he has reached to the top body condition.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Old saying said, "The winning is given to those who has prepared."

One of my students wants to compete in a tournament in 2 months. I told him that he will need at least 3 months of serious training time. He said that he just want to test where he is. I told him that he should not compete in tournament unless he believes that he has reached to the top body condition.

Good advice to your student. There are many ways to test where one is at without competing in a tournament. It's not the first time I've heard this, but for some reason many people think the tournament arena is a testing ground.

They don't see it as a stage in which they represent their training and coach / teacher. Depending on the type of tournament, a person can end up getting knocked out because of slack training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is how my brain works. If I can:
1. stop you from landing successful strikes
2. stop you from successful grappling attempts.
3. Land successful strikes of my own
4. Have successful grappling attempts.

Then how are you going to win against me?

If my "door guarding" moves don't work on you, I will retire myself right at that moment. During the old China time, if I announce to the public that I start to smoke opium, nobody will be allowed to challenge me any more (It won't prove you anything if you defeat me, an opium smoker).

If I can't win, I may have chance to lose. If I don't want to lose, I'll need to start to smoke opium and retire.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If my "door guarding" moves don't work on you, I will retire myself right at that moment. During the old China time, if I announce to the public that I start to smoke opium, nobody will be allowed to challenge me any more (It won't prove you anything if you defeat me).

If I can't win, I will try to tie. I'll then retire and start to smoke opium.

That's horrible lol. Not very inspiring for trying to find a way to win lol.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's horrible lol. Not very inspiring for trying to find a way to win lol.

After my teacher had a tie (1-1) in his last tournament, he retired after that. That evening after tournament, my teacher's young brother and 2 of my teacher's classmates went to challenge the new borned star and hurt him badly. It was quite dirty in the CMA history.

 

[JowGaWolf]

After my teacher had a tie (1-1) in his last tournament, he retired after that. That evening after tournament, my teacher's young brother and 2 of my teacher's classmates went to challenge the new borned star and hurt him badly. It was quite dirty in the CMA history.

Just because of a tie?

 

[Steve]

Just want to clarify on thing. Applying skills professionally is equally effective at building real skill. Not better or worse, as they are just as specific and prone to the same issues as competition. Cops,for example, learn specific skills that help them do their jobs. They apply the skills in the execution of their jobs. And they are just as prone to misunderstanding a shifting context as a competitor, if they don’t specifically think about how the skills they have would need to adjust to a civilian context.

Like a competitor, they also can’t magically impart these skills to someone who isn’t a cop or competitor, even if they train that person personally.

 

[DaveB]

I’ve read a few comments here and there suggesting that mma incorporates boxing, wrestling, and similar arts because they’re quicker to learn. While I would point out that it still takes between 8 and 10years to earn a black belt in BJJ, which is a pillar of mma, I would agree that, in general, the average student acquires usable, functional skill much faster. I believe this is because of the way it’s trained.

I propose that If you applied a competitive training model to any style, you would learn it faster. Any style. Budo taijutsu. Wing chun, aikido. What do you think?

Can you describe what you feel is the competitive training model?

 

[Buka]

What It Takes to be Number One
"Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while; you don't do things right once in a while; you do them right all of the time. Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game, and that's first place. I have finished second twice in my time at Green Bay, and I don't ever want to finish second again. There is a second place bowl game, but it is a game for losers played by losers. It is and always has been an American zeal to be first in anything we do, and to win, and to win, and to win.

Every time a football player goes to ply his trade he's got to play from the ground up - from the soles of his feet right up to his head. Every inch of him has to play. Some guys play with their heads. That's O.K. You've got to be smart to be number one in any business. But more importantly, you've got to play with your heart, with every fiber of your body. If you're lucky enough to find a guy with a lot of head and a lot of heart, he's never going to come off the field second.

Running a football team is no different than running any other kind of organization - an army, a political party or a business. The principles are the same. The object is to win - to beat the other guy. Maybe that sounds hard or cruel. I don't think it is.

It is a reality of life that men are competitive and the most competitive games draw the most competitive men. That's why they are there - to compete. The object is to win fairly, squarely, by the rules - but to win.

And in truth, I've never known a man worth his salt who in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline. There is something in good men that really yearns for discipline and the harsh reality of head to head combat.

I don't say these things because I believe in the ‘brute' nature of men or that men must be brutalized to be combative. I believe in God, and I believe in human decency. But I firmly believe that any man's finest hour -- his greatest fulfillment to all he holds dear -- is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."

- Coach Vincent T. Lombardi

What It Takes to be Number One | Vince Lombardi

In my opinion, when competing in Martial anything, it would disrespectful to both your opponent, and the entire competition process, if you weren't doing your very best to be victorious.

 

[DaveB]

I disagree with the premise. Boxing and wrestling is not quicker to learn. Adding a competitive element does not increase the rate of skill building. However it does put a limiting factor on who is going to participate in the training and the focus on that training. In a cross section of 100 martial artists I would say very few would participate if they were punched in the face every class, however that is the expectation when you do MMA. MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight. Put that group in any martial art and the results will be similar.

Critical thinking! You can't beat it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just because of a tie?

A tie means that your life time tournament winning record has been broken. If you have a perfect tournament winning record, you will try very hard to protect it (even with your life).

If your best skill won't work on your opponent, -> your opponent's best skill may work on you. -> You may lose.

 

[Steve]

Can you describe what you feel is the competitive training model?

Simply put, training for sport.

 

[DaveB]

Simply put, training for sport.

That's not a methodology, it's a goal.

What is the methodology that you assume for this goal?

To me training for sport means training myself to follow a set of rules, then getting good at that.particular game by doing it lots.

 

[Steve]

That's not a methodology, it's a goal.

What is the methodology that you assume for this goal?

To me training for sport means training myself to follow a set of rules, then getting good at that.particular game by doing it lots.

That’s it. You’ve got the idea.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's not a methodology, it's a goal.

What is the methodology that you assume for this goal?

To me training for sport means training myself to follow a set of rules, then getting good at that.particular game by doing it lots.

Training for sport is the path. Combat is the goal.

If your goal is to extend your head out like this when you fight, your training are deadly wrong. In other words, even if punching is not allowed, you still have to assume that fists are flying.

 

[drop bear]

Training for sport is the path. Combat is the goal.

If your goal is to extend your head out like this when you fight, your training are deadly wrong. In other words, even if punching is not allowed, you still have to assume that fists are flying.

Yes but there are sports that have wrestling and punching.

 

[dvcochran]

What It Takes to be Number One
"Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while; you don't do things right once in a while; you do them right all of the time. Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.

There is no room for second place. There is only one place in my game, and that's first place. I have finished second twice in my time at Green Bay, and I don't ever want to finish second again. There is a second place bowl game, but it is a game for losers played by losers. It is and always has been an American zeal to be first in anything we do, and to win, and to win, and to win.

Every time a football player goes to ply his trade he's got to play from the ground up - from the soles of his feet right up to his head. Every inch of him has to play. Some guys play with their heads. That's O.K. You've got to be smart to be number one in any business. But more importantly, you've got to play with your heart, with every fiber of your body. If you're lucky enough to find a guy with a lot of head and a lot of heart, he's never going to come off the field second.

Running a football team is no different than running any other kind of organization - an army, a political party or a business. The principles are the same. The object is to win - to beat the other guy. Maybe that sounds hard or cruel. I don't think it is.

It is a reality of life that men are competitive and the most competitive games draw the most competitive men. That's why they are there - to compete. The object is to win fairly, squarely, by the rules - but to win.

And in truth, I've never known a man worth his salt who in the long run, deep down in his heart, didn't appreciate the grind, the discipline. There is something in good men that really yearns for discipline and the harsh reality of head to head combat.

I don't say these things because I believe in the ‘brute' nature of men or that men must be brutalized to be combative. I believe in God, and I believe in human decency. But I firmly believe that any man's finest hour -- his greatest fulfillment to all he holds dear -- is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious."

- Coach Vincent T. Lombardi

What It Takes to be Number One | Vince Lombardi

One of the best quotes ever. I have it on my desk.

 

[dvcochran]

Lombardi’s What It Takes to be Number 1 probably deserves its own thread, but I found its appropriate here, with all the talk of winning and all.

I think it’s 100% on the money. My take on it is what is winning? If all it is is your hand raised at the conclusion of the match, that’s a pretty shallow definition.

My idea of winning is giving it everything you’ve got. When everyone’s left and you’re alone looking in the mirror, you know you did at least everything you know you’re capable of. Even more, you surprised yourself and outdid what you thought you could do. That’s winning.

When I compete, the judges will score however they want. I can’t control that. The competition field might suck, might be world-class, or somewhere in between. I can’t control that. All I can do is get out there and do my thing to the best of my ability. I do that, and I won. Anything short of that, and I lost. I’d rather get completely outclassed and walk away knowing I left it all on the floor than beat a bunch of bums without breaking a sweat.

Winning isn’t everything. It’s the only thing.

Very much agree. The person who is so empty that NOT having their hand raised at the end of the match crushes them has no clue of the undeniable joy in winning. Physical ability is fleeting. I have competed in the last 3 decades of my life, less and less each decade but I keep trying because I know the joy I competing.