Fixing the training model

[Steve]

I’ve read a few comments here and there suggesting that mma incorporates boxing, wrestling, and similar arts because they’re quicker to learn. While I would point out that it still takes between 8 and 10years to earn a black belt in BJJ, which is a pillar of mma, I would agree that, in general, the average student acquires usable, functional skill much faster. I believe this is because of the way it’s trained.

I propose that If you applied a competitive training model to any style, you would learn it faster. Any style. Budo taijutsu. Wing chun, aikido. What do you think?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Probably. You would figure out very quickly how to apply things

 

[WingChunChick]

I would agree with that. I see often a fualt in the training methods used. A good example of this is that early judo and jiujitsu were relatively the same techniques. Yet Kano's judoka beat all challengers because of the way they trained which was more modern.

 

[JR 137]

I’ve read a few comments here and there suggesting that mma incorporates boxing, wrestling, and similar arts because they’re quicker to learn. While I would point out that it still takes between 8 and 10years to earn a black belt in BJJ, which is a pillar of mma, I would agree that, in general, the average student acquires usable, functional skill much faster. I believe this is because of the way it’s trained.

I propose that If you applied a competitive training model to any style, you would learn it faster. Any style. Budo taijutsu. Wing chun, aikido. What do you think?

I’d modify it to resistance training rather than competitive training.

If it’s competitive, many people start resorting to the same handful of their best techniques to win. In competition, the goal is to win. Why use stuff that’s risky if you don’t have to. Through resistance training, the urge is there, but you've got more opportunity to develop other stuff without losing.

Either way, once you’ve got something down against relatively no resistance, you’ve got to increase that resistance. You’ve got to start doing it against people who aren’t going to let you do it.

But on the other hand, all the resistance in the world isn’t the most effective way if you’re only sparring/competing with people who only do what you do. This is how styles start falling into that trap of only being effective against people within the same style.

 

[hoshin1600]

I disagree with the premise. Boxing and wrestling is not quicker to learn. Adding a competitive element does not increase the rate of skill building. However it does put a limiting factor on who is going to participate in the training and the focus on that training. In a cross section of 100 martial artists I would say very few would participate if they were punched in the face every class, however that is the expectation when you do MMA. MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight. Put that group in any martial art and the results will be similar.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight.

The issue is whether you want to teach

- a small group of fighters, or
- a large group of MA for health people.

Unfortunately, these 2 groups of people are mutual exclusive.

 

[Martial D]

I’ve read a few comments here and there suggesting that mma incorporates boxing, wrestling, and similar arts because they’re quicker to learn. While I would point out that it still takes between 8 and 10years to earn a black belt in BJJ, which is a pillar of mma, I would agree that, in general, the average student acquires usable, functional skill much faster. I believe this is because of the way it’s trained.

I propose that If you applied a competitive training model to any style, you would learn it faster. Any style. Budo taijutsu. Wing chun, aikido. What do you think?

I think you would learn a more practical but also more simplified version.

Simplified in that all the fluff would quickly fall by the wayside. I guess I might be biased though as a wc guy that trains with mma methods.

 

[marques]

MMA incorporates boxing and wrestling because, given they train to compete, they adapt easier to MMA (MMA sport).

MMA fighters do not need all BBJ program (I guess it it a quite open ‘program’ but you got it); they get functional skill in less than 10 years in groundwork because/when they focus on what they need for MMA (no gi, striking allowed...).

Anyway, I agree some arts should train differently if they want to be competitive. Perhaps in the the past they trained differently as well, or just trained more given it was a matter of life or death; or it was the only hobby available for some for a while.

These days training should be adapted to get results training a few hrs/wk, during a few years. Currently, some arts seem not getting results at any time, outside the controlled and planed environment...

My 50 cents.

 

[Danny T]

Learning just to fight using specific actions will take less time than learning a complete martial system.
Look at military training. People are taught specific aspects of combat depending on what part of combat they are to be used in but to learn the totality of combat takes a lot longer.

 

[JR 137]

I disagree with the premise. Boxing and wrestling is not quicker to learn. Adding a competitive element does not increase the rate of skill building. However it does put a limiting factor on who is going to participate in the training and the focus on that training. In a cross section of 100 martial artists I would say very few would participate if they were punched in the face every class, however that is the expectation when you do MMA. MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight. Put that group in any martial art and the results will be similar.

And there are several “sport” karate and TKD schools in my immediate area. None of which appeal to me at all.

Classic example of a competition based school near me - my uncle signed up for TKD at a local school. He was a TKD black belt in Beirut, Lebanon back in the 70s and wanted to get back into it. Once he started sparring, everyone started hating him. He consistently heard “why are you throwing punches? Punches don’t score points.” His reply - “I’m not here to score points.” He stuck with it long enough to fulfill his contract. He figured he’d get his money’s worth and some exercise while he was at it. And he didn’t stop throwing punches

 

[Steve]

I disagree with the premise. Boxing and wrestling is not quicker to learn. Adding a competitive element does not increase the rate of skill building. However it does put a limiting factor on who is going to participate in the training and the focus on that training. In a cross section of 100 martial artists I would say very few would participate if they were punched in the face every class, however that is the expectation when you do MMA. MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight. Put that group in any martial art and the results will be similar.

I think this is a great point. However, it's a common assertion that is accepted by many people, I think as a way to make their own lack of progress in their arts more palatable (i.e., "They're getting so good because what they're doing is easy. What I am doing is hard, and so it will take much longer to demonstrate progress.")

I’d modify it to resistance training rather than competitive training.

If it’s competitive, many people start resorting to the same handful of their best techniques to win. In competition, the goal is to win. Why use stuff that’s risky if you don’t have to. Through resistance training, the urge is there, but you've got more opportunity to develop other stuff without losing.

Either way, once you’ve got something down against relatively no resistance, you’ve got to increase that resistance. You’ve got to start doing it against people who aren’t going to let you do it.

But on the other hand, all the resistance in the world isn’t the most effective way if you’re only sparring/competing with people who only do what you do. This is how styles start falling into that trap of only being effective against people within the same style.

I hear what you're saying, but would disagree. Resistance training is the means to the end. Competition is the end goal. If you don't have an end goal, the training becomes the end goal, which is exactly why some arts fail to produce reliable results. My hypothesis here is that, if you add an end goal to any training, it will make the training more effective, and the result will be faster, more reliable results.

I think you're cautions with regards to competition are spot on. These came cautions could be applied to any application. Whether you're a bouncer, cop, or mafia enforcer, you will need to adapt your skills to different contexts depending on the specific self defense situation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I propose that If you applied a competitive training model to any style, you would learn it faster. Any style. Budo taijutsu. Wing chun, aikido. What do you think?

I'm all for competition, but if you don't try to use the techniques then you won't learn the techniques This is the main problem with many TMAs. Student's don't make an honest effort to use the techniques.

Ironically the main reason why many students don't try to use the techniques is because they are too focused on winning and not learning. The other half hit too hard for sparring which in turn makes learning very dangerous and risky.

In order to learn the student must be comfortable with failing, making mistakes, and then retrying the approach. In addition the student must trust the technique even if it looks like they are going to get blasted in the face.

 

[Steve]

I disagree with the premise. Boxing and wrestling is not quicker to learn. Adding a competitive element does not increase the rate of skill building. However it does put a limiting factor on who is going to participate in the training and the focus on that training. In a cross section of 100 martial artists I would say very few would participate if they were punched in the face every class, however that is the expectation when you do MMA. MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight. Put that group in any martial art and the results will be similar.

I'm all for competition, but if you don't try to use the techniques then you won't learn the techniques This is the main problem with many TMAs. Student's don't make an honest effort to use the techniques.

Ironically the main reason why many students don't try to use the techniques is because they are too focused on winning and not learning. The other half hit too hard for sparring which in turn makes learning very dangerous and risky.

In order to learn the student must be comfortable with failing, making mistakes, and then retrying the approach. In addition the student must trust the technique even if it looks like they are going to get blasted in the face.

i completely agree on this. This is where a really good coach makes a difference. If you camp out in your “a” game, you will stagnate. Eventually, competition results will stagnate, as well.

But, on the bright side, you will have an “a” game.

Also, competition can be the solution. The feedback of losing is invaluable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The feedback of losing is invaluable.

Losing is irrelevant for me. Each opponent is different, with different skill sets and abilities. I won't know about my opponent's fighting ability until we actually start fighting / sparring. Winning and losing sometimes have different values. For example, Winning isn't always good in self-defense. Walking away from a conflict and looking like you lost may be a win for you, because you were able to get out of the conflict with out physically fighting. Sometimes in competition. You can win within the rules but lose in terms of developing good fighting techniques.

Winning and Losing always means something different depending on what sport your play. Training to not get hit in the face is always the same. It doesn't change based on type of competition. It's always the same goal even when Winning and Losing change in meaning.


For some people winning is a big motivator and I can accept that.

 

[Steve]

Losing is irrelevant for me. Each opponent is different, with different skill sets and abilities. I won't know about my opponent's fighting ability until we actually start fighting / sparring. Winning and losing sometimes have different values. For example, Winning isn't always good in self-defense. Walking away from a conflict and looking like you lost may be a win for you, because you were able to get out of the conflict with out physically fighting. Sometimes in competition. You can win within the rules but lose in terms of developing good fighting techniques.

Winning and Losing always means something different depending on what sport your play. Training to not get hit in the face is always the same. It doesn't change based on type of competition. It's always the same goal even when Winning and Losing change in meaning.


For some people winning is a big motivator and I can accept that.

I think we are talking past each other here. I am not suggesting that winning or losing is the key. Edit, I just did a quick scan of my previous posts, and I didn’t see where I mentioned winning at all. I did mention the tremendous amount of feedback one gets from losing, which I stand by.

 

[Buka]

Meh, winning, losing....it doesn't matter.

Like hell it doesn't. Like bloody hell.

 

[drop bear]

I disagree with the premise. Boxing and wrestling is not quicker to learn. Adding a competitive element does not increase the rate of skill building. However it does put a limiting factor on who is going to participate in the training and the focus on that training. In a cross section of 100 martial artists I would say very few would participate if they were punched in the face every class, however that is the expectation when you do MMA. MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight. Put that group in any martial art and the results will be similar.

That is kind of OPs point. You get people fighting and they would be better martial artists.

 

[drop bear]

I'm all for competition, but if you don't try to use the techniques then you won't learn the techniques This is the main problem with many TMAs. Student's don't make an honest effort to use the techniques.

Ironically the main reason why many students don't try to use the techniques is because they are too focused on winning and not learning. The other half hit too hard for sparring which in turn makes learning very dangerous and risky.

In order to learn the student must be comfortable with failing, making mistakes, and then retrying the approach. In addition the student must trust the technique even if it looks like they are going to get blasted in the face.

A better understanding of how winning and loosing works.

But I think you get that from winning and loosing.

 

[Martial D]

I disagree with the premise. Boxing and wrestling is not quicker to learn. Adding a competitive element does not increase the rate of skill building. However it does put a limiting factor on who is going to participate in the training and the focus on that training. In a cross section of 100 martial artists I would say very few would participate if they were punched in the face every class, however that is the expectation when you do MMA. MMA has a very condensed appeal with a bell curve of mostly young fit guys who actually want to fight. Put that group in any martial art and the results will be similar.

This seems weird to me though. In every martial art, at least the vast majority, there are at least overtones of learning some sort of fighting skills. Even if you never want to use them, you still want the skills. Otherwise what are you even doing?

Imagine taking ballet, but you don't care if what you are learning can actually help you dance. You might never want to dance at all, but you should at least know how when you leave the studio. In other words, pretense without delivery is sorta pointless.

 

[drop bear]

Two aspects happen through this combative learning process.

You get a closer approximation to what you are trying to understand. Which gives you a better appreciation of a complex issue. (I like the Muslim reference here.)

And the students advance the concepts which means there are twenty people in the class developing the martial art rather than one. Bigger gene pool stronger organism.