Five year old is a first dan black belt...

[still learning]

Still_Learning, we all talk back and forth about how we don't care about ranking, but truth be told, and I think most people here on MT will agree with me, we DO care about ranking. Maybe not to the extent that we train simply to get the next rainbow colored belt, but the sum of our experiences displayed publicly within the confines of our school. My new Kaju school has a saying that a black belt is a black belt because they've spent years sweating blood. Not because they spent years at the school, not because they sweated blood at one point, but it was a continuous occurrence that molded them into what they are. Simply put, putting a black belt on a five year old who, mathematically thinking, can only have been training for two years (from age three to five) then there is no way, even for a prodigy, to have the skills necessary to produce the sweating blood metaphor. Children don't have the attention span to concentrate on something long enough to mentally develop into a black belt, and their ever-changing body structure could not support black belt level conditioning, the effect of such acts would result in horrible muscle degeneration for the child.

Honestly, what I feel is being discussed here isn't the fact that the girl has a black belt around her waist, but the connotation of such belt implies that she has superb skills, which she simply CANNOT have at that age. Set in stone or simply idea in mind, the black belt should go synonymously with technical skill, application and mental knowledge, and at best a five year old can only have the former.

Hello, Well put! ....Thank-you!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Once again everyone seems to be tossing out the context of the situation and just applying should of's in their own context. Even if you want to throw out the context of the match and make it a free for all she still would have gotten overwhelmed.

Well, I did say that did I not? The whole point of what we are saying is that if she cannot handle herself in a controlled match against a larger opponent, then in an actual violent encounter with a larger attacker, she has absolutely no chance. And that should not be the case for a black belt, especially a third dan.

I have done multiple styles of martial arts during my time and in all of them weight, size, and streangth are just as much a factor as experience, and sometimes can come more into play depending on the situation. If you think other wise then I think you are giving someone a false sense of confidence and I just hope they never have to be in any such situation where some bigger street tuff is in front of them.

Due to the perception of what a black belt represents, you are giving them a false sense of confidence if you put a third dan black belt on someone who cannot handle themselves in a fight against an inexperienced but bigger and/or stronger opponent, as having that belt will almost certainly tell them that they can.

This applies even more so to children who do not understand the role of size and strength.

Certainly, size and strength play a factor. But they are not the only factors involved. Anyone at third dan should understand power generation and be able to do so without muscling through the techniques. That is the whole point of learning them. I already covered basic footwork and strategy in previous posts, so I will not rehash those.

this point I really don't know what point is trying to be made other than at 3 dan it is expected that you can and will counter all and every situation. OK if you belive that then good for you.

Nobody said that. Go back and reread what was said by myself and Shinobi. Neither of us said anything remotely similar to that. The whole 3rd dan = superman/wonder-woman has been addressed; we know that it does not and have said so.

Meaning you no disrespect, I find it puzzling that you do not seem to be apprehending what is being said. In discussions about execution of techniques, you seem to know what you are talking about and you also seem fairly experienced. Certainly, I have read enough of your post to know that you are an intelligent individual. Perhaps our perspectives are simply very far apart.

At this point, there is not much point in picking it apart any further. We have all made our points and as such, can simply disagree agreeably.

I will say that the points that Shinobi and myself have made about how one should be able to handle themselves at a black belt level should make anyone do a double take at children receiving black belts for anything except competition bracketing. And even then, I consider it highly inappropriate.

Daniel

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,

I think five years old is way too young for even a junior black belt ranking...
But, what do I know... It was not my promotion, and I am not the one who has to live with it.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Cirdan]

We all give instructions of what to do when... But we cannot gurantee that anyone we teach can pull it off when needed. Just because it is said that this or that should be done, does not mean that it will happen. No matter what rank someone is. Reality is too dynamic and there are too many variables and there is no way we can act one each one all the time.

I guess that is why we teach students to be dynamic too. It is not about throwing in a technique and hoping it will work. It is about using core principles, adapt to the situation and MAKE it work.

 

[ATC]

I guess that is why we teach students to be dynamic too. It is not about throwing in a technique and hoping it will work. It is about using core principles, adapt to the situation and MAKE it work.

Wow...Evenyone alway states the obvious. Yes,yes,yes and yes again, all understood. But all I am saying is that you can't alway make it work all the time. If that is the case then you are god and good for you. Nothing is guaranteed. Sometimes you just miss. :shrug:

 

[Cirdan]

Wow...Evenyone alway states the obvious. Yes,yes,yes and yes again, all understood. But all I am saying is that you can't alway make it work all the time. If that is the case then you are god and good for you. Nothing is guaranteed. Sometimes you just miss. :shrug:

"Anyone can make an error. An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it"

By all means continue to pour mud in the waters, enjoy the swim.

 

[ATC]

"Anyone can make an error."

Yes and more than just once. Sometimes you string those errors togeather and you have a bad day. Sometimes it is your opponent that is causeing you to make those errors. And still yet you may be making those errors or mistakes because you are just over matched.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wow...Eveyone alway states the obvious. Yes,yes,yes and yes again, all understood.

Yes, and so do you:

But all I am saying is that you can't alway make it work all the time....Nothing is guaranteed. Sometimes you just miss. :shrug:

Yes, we all get that. Yes, sometimes you just miss.

But you are also missing an obvious point, one that has been made several times:

The young lady that you described did not miss. Her shortcoming is that she could not effectively generate power when she hit. Had this not been the case, the outcome may (or may not) have been different, but my appraisal would be very different. You certainly may have thought twice about doing what you did if her punches had actually hurt.

The falling prey to a simplistic and easy to read technique at that point could be chalked up to her either having a bad day or simply having worn herself out or simply being freaked out by an unexpected tactic.

It is this in combination with the inability to generate power with hand techniques that brings up the questions.

It is obvious that we have different perspectives on this, so we may as well just leave it at that. To relate this subject back to the OP:

Like it or not, the ability to effectively punch is a large part of all karate based styles.

Young children in general and five year olds in particular cannot effectively punch, block attacks from adults, or even effectively kick, which is why they should not be handed karate black belts, as the one in the OP's story did.

Likewise, an adult who cannot genrate power and effectively punch has not learned one of the most basic and funemental skills of the art. This should be dealt with and corrected before awarding a black belt in a karate based art, and yes, that includes taekwondo. In spite of the emphasis on kicks in the WTF style sparring, hand strikes outnumber kicks by a good amount.

Two of the factors that appear in virtually every answer on threads asking what a black belt should be able to do involved being able to execute the techniques with "snap and power."

Snap and power are generally beyond young children (ten and under). By ten, if they started young, they are beginning to develop this. But some students take longer to develop it. Some never do.

That does not mean that they cannot continue to train or that they should quit karate. But they should not be saddled with a black belt.

When someone who is not ready receives a black belt, they will inevitably wind up being told that the did not deserve it or wind up the subject of discussion about why they did not deserve it.

Personally, I do not want to see my students become the subject of such a topic. I do not control who gets promoted at the school where I train and teach, so if it happens, that is GM Kim's burden, not mine. All that I can do is teach to the best of my ability.

Thankfully, the responsibility of promoting students is not my own. I do participate and give my input at testings, but ultimately, GM Kim decides who passes or fails.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes and more than just once. Sometimes you string those errors togeather and you have a bad day. Sometimes it is your opponent that is causeing you to make those errors. And still yet you may be making those errors or mistakes because you are just over matched.

Now that I agree with.

Daniel

 

[sfs982000]

Yes, and so do you:

Yes, we all get that. Yes, sometimes you just miss.

But you are also missing an obvious point, one that has been made several times:

The young lady that you described did not miss. Her shortcoming is that she could not effectively generate power when she hit. Had this not been the case, the outcome may (or may not) have been different, but my appraisal would be very different. You certainly may have thought twice about doing what you did if her punches had actually hurt.

The falling prey to a simplistic and easy to read technique at that point could be chalked up to her either having a bad day or simply having worn herself out or simply being freaked out by an unexpected tactic.

It is this in combination with the inability to generate power with hand techniques that brings up the questions.

It is obvious that we have different perspectives on this, so we may as well just leave it at that. To relate this subject back to the OP:

Like it or not, the ability to effectively punch is a large part of all karate based styles.

Young children in general and five year olds in particular cannot effectively punch, block attacks from adults, or even effectively kick, which is why they should not be handed karate black belts, as the one in the OP's story did.

Likewise, an adult who cannot genrate power and effectively punch has not learned one of the most basic and funemental skills of the art. This should be dealt with and corrected before awarding a black belt in a karate based art, and yes, that includes taekwondo. In spite of the emphasis on kicks in the WTF style sparring, hand strikes outnumber kicks by a good amount.

Two of the factors that appear in virtually every answer on threads asking what a black belt should be able to do involved being able to execute the techniques with "snap and power."

Snap and power are generally beyond young children (ten and under). By ten, if they started young, they are beginning to develop this. But some students take longer to develop it. Some never do.

That does not mean that they cannot continue to train or that they should quit karate. But they should not be saddled with a black belt.

When someone who is not ready receives a black belt, they will inevitably wind up being told that the did not deserve it or wind up the subject of discussion about why they did not deserve it.

Personally, I do not want to see my students become the subject of such a topic. I do not control who gets promoted at the school where I train and teach, so if it happens, that is GM Kim's burden, not mine. All that I can do is teach to the best of my ability.

Thankfully, the responsibility of promoting students is not my own. I do participate and give my input at testings, but ultimately, GM Kim decides who passes or fails.

Daniel

I couldn't have put that last part together any better if I tried. There really needs to be a seperate grading scale for children. The majority of children out there studing martial arts are simply not ready for the responsibility that comes with a black belt (physically and mentally). I would certainly never discourage a child from studing but there are alternate ways of keeping them motivated to continue training. I see kids at my dojang running around with black belts and I just have to shake my head. I mean I guess they were able to memorize the material well enough to pass the test, but again there is a certain responsibility that comes with the rank.

 

[kingkong89]

I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school

 

[Aikikitty]

I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school

I quite died inside the other day when our secretary at work proudly told me that her daughter is a black belt at 9. That's way too young IMHO, but the worst of it was when she told me that her daughter hated the sparring and was losing interest so she bribed her daughter to stay with it until blackbelt by promising to buy her a laptop. A 9 year old with a blackbelt who had to be bribed by mom with a laptop. And why does a 9 year old even need a laptop anyway, but that's a different topic.

Our secretary has no clue I'm involved with martial arts myself. The first thing she'd ask is what rank I am (clearly that's all she knows or cares about) and she'd probably think I'm an idiot to take 8 1/2 years to get my shodan. I know that her daughter is really 1st Poom and not Dan, but her mom loves to point out that her girl is "black belt". For most people who don't know better, that's one and the same as an adult's b.b. I hope her bragging doesn't get her daughter hurt someday by other kids hearing that and wanting to "test her out".

Robyn

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school

I am normally not the sort to make mention of grammar and punctuation, but this is one of those run on sentences that seems to be without focus. In a typed format, puncutation is helpful, no offense.

Here is that I am getting from the above:

You find it hard to believe that a five year old can get a black belt.
Fair enough. I too find it hard to believe that a five year old can earn a black belt in karate or taekwondo. Even a junior black belt.

You saw a nine year old that you trained get a black belt, but for his age, he was ready for cryin out loud.
Black belt in what? Ready for what? How did you determine that he was ready? I am curious to know, though I do not agree that any nine year old should have a black belt placed around their dobok or gi.

And finally,

You were in karate before her mother was probably in high school.
Who's mother? The five year olds? And what does your time in karate have to do with the rest of your post?

I am not trying to give you a hard time; just trying to make sense of your post.

Daniel

 

[kingkong89]

To the opal dragon it sounds like your secratery is one of those moms that indulges themselves in bragging about what their child has done

and to mr sullivan
the student earned his black belt in karate and ju jitsu
i knew he was ready by a couple observations one the way he carried himself he was very mature and learned the material very easily and could actually demonstrate and carry out the techniques better than most teenagers i had seen

and the five year olds mother just saying that there are those of us out there that have spent most of our lives in the martial arts before we recieved our black belts it was a comment with a strange twist of humor so to speak

 

[terryl965]

I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school

Please no five years old can fully understand the material to be a BB, not even a Junior BB. Any instructor that would even suggest this gives Martial Arts a bad name plan and simple.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To the opal dragon it sounds like your secratery is one of those moms that indulges themselves in bragging about what their child has done

and to mr sullivan
the student earned his black belt in karate and ju jitsu
i knew he was ready by a couple observations one the way he carried himself he was very mature and learned the material very easily and could actually demonstrate and carry out the techniques better than most teenagers i had seen

and the five year olds mother just saying that there are those of us out there that have spent most of our lives in the martial arts before we recieved our black belts it was a comment with a strange twist of humor so to speak

I appreciate the clarification!

Daniel

 

[Andrew Green]

I find it hard to believe a five year old can get a black belt the youngest ive seen was a student i trained who was nine but for his age he was ready for cryin out loud i was in karate before her mother was probably in high school

You all take this way to seriously... It's a belt, it means something within that particular school, not outside of it.

Chances are this girl has very impressive skills for a 5-year old. She probably has better coordination and reflexes then other 5-year olds. So what if she was motivated through coloured belts?

In BJJ the general rule is you have to be 16 to get a blue belt. A rule that pretty much no other style follows. But thats fine, belts are not equivalent across styles, or even schools. But there is no uproar over every young kid that gets a blue belt.

The BB is a mistake IMO, but for slightly different reasons. Her accomplishments are likely impressive for a 5-year old. Yet they will be ignored by many who can't see past the belt she has and that she is not as good as a 18-year old BB.

Schools also like to frame a BB as the end goal ("We are a Black Belt School!"), once the goal is reached that's it, no more to do. Especially at that age. If they keep the promotion speed she'd be a 10th dan before her 10th birthday. To go from testing and promotions every couple months to every few years would likely lead to a huge drop off when you are using promotions for goal setting. Chances are you will lose all your most naturally talented kids very early because they where trained to go after goals, and the end goal was reached.

 

[IcemanSK]

You all take this way to seriously... It's a belt, it means something within that particular school, not outside of it.

Chances are this girl has very impressive skills for a 5-year old. She probably has better coordination and reflexes then other 5-year olds. So what if she was motivated through coloured belts?

In BJJ the general rule is you have to be 16 to get a blue belt. A rule that pretty much no other style follows. But thats fine, belts are not equivalent across styles, or even schools. But there is no uproar over every young kid that gets a blue belt.

The BB is a mistake IMO, but for slightly different reasons. Her accomplishments are likely impressive for a 5-year old. Yet they will be ignored by many who can't see past the belt she has and that she is not as good as a 18-year old BB.

Schools also like to frame a BB as the end goal ("We are a Black Belt School!"), once the goal is reached that's it, no more to do. Especially at that age. If they keep the promotion speed she'd be a 10th dan before her 10th birthday. To go from testing and promotions every couple months to every few years would likely lead to a huge drop off when you are using promotions for goal setting. Chances are you will lose all your most naturally talented kids very early because they where trained to go after goals, and the end goal was reached.

I try hard not to add to this discussion very often, but Andrew has a good point. It's hard to make MA into a life-long pursuit when you've reached the "top" of the Art at a young age. Where do you go from there? My answer would be, "to the next thing." MA gets forgotten & it's on to piano or something else.

 

[kingkong89]

Its not the fact of the matter that we are taking this seriously that a five year old has recieved a bb but in a way we are yes a black belt is just that a peice of material that is black and you wear it but it is the principle a black belt holds a lot of meaning it is symbolic of any art

 

[dbell]

You all take this way to seriously... It's a belt, it means something within that particular school, not outside of it.

This I disagree with, or there would not be so many complaints and disagreement about the 5 year old getting the belt here. The belt also has meaning out side of the school. It imparts that the person wearing it ached a level of understanding and training in a art that is pretty high. It shows those outside the school in which it is given that this person is able to do their art fairly well, and probably able to teach it to some degree to others.

Most of the schools that issue BB to younger people also seem to be heavily into competition. Having a BB on (or Poon Belt) tells the Judges and other competitors that this person should know their stuff.

So it means something outside the school in which it is issued.

The BB is a mistake IMO, but for slightly different reasons. Her accomplishments are likely impressive for a 5-year old. Yet they will be ignored by many who can't see past the belt she has and that she is not as good as a 18-year old BB.

From your start of the message, I'm taking you are saying this is from within the school where it was issued itself?

Schools also like to frame a BB as the end goal ("We are a Black Belt School!"), once the goal is reached that's it, no more to do. Especially at that age. If they keep the promotion speed she'd be a 10th dan before her 10th birthday. To go from testing and promotions every couple months to every few years would likely lead to a huge drop off when you are using promotions for goal setting. Chances are you will lose all your most naturally talented kids very early because they where trained to go after goals, and the end goal was reached.

This I agree with.