Five Dragons Facing Four Winds

[Danjo]

I guess we agree on something, or at least at some level. I just don't believe everything was meant to be black and white. Some times it benefits a person to open up the mind and think for themselves. My instructor and I go through some of this stuff and come up with various ways to apply the movements. They aren't always identical to the original, which plays to your comment of the creator not recognizing it, but then it enlightens and elevates the practitioner. So why is it wrong? I don't think it is, but I agree, some of these forms, especially those purposefully changed for no apparent reason other than to be different, from certain organizations not mentioned here, mainly in the SKK lineage, would not be recognized by the creator, and in many instances those changes may actually be laughed at and passed off as "ineffective".

Nothing wrong with being creative and expanding on what you were taught. Just seems like a good idea to know what the original thinking was behind something if it's possible.

 

[DavidCC]

may actually be laughed at and passed off as "ineffective".

that really goes both ways, as someone who practices modified version of much of the SKK material, we are befuddled by some of that stuff... jumping scissor kicks, slapping the floor - stuff like that. But I'm sure others look at what we do the same way. With the rise of YouTube and similar services, it is now possible for one curious individual to get a look at a multitude of other styles and artists; something that was nearly impossible even 10 years ago. However I think that this can be bad becasue video is a poor representation, and also most marital artists (and people in general) are not as wise, educated or discerning as they believe.

It's easy to look at a video of something and be completely wrong for at least 4 reasons:

1) video is a 2 dimensional representation, you miss lots of nuance vs in-person observation in 3D. Single point of view often occludes half the mvoements.
2) video is visual and aural; you miss a lot of details that cannot be seen or heard even in the highest definition video image
3) it's easy to confuse "this one instance of execution" with "the ideal exectution"; confusing the performer and his idiosyncracies with the specifics of what the system teaches or how tha tperson might perform the next time or the previous time
4) with most things having multiple layers and categories of information, watching the same instance of something over and over never moves beyond that singular moment of teaching (at best) and so the real depth of any particular thing can never be reached.

 

[terryl965]

I have to agree with you there, but the point remains, why close off the mind? Does a move have no meaning because someone doesn't tell you what it is? I have some kung fu forms, and let me tell you, when I ask for bunkai, even from the GM, I get sometimes 5 or 6 possible applications for the movement in question. So, whether the person or persons that made the form passed on the original application or not, there are many possibilities. Just because the person that made the form isn't available to me to give me his/her thought doesn't mean the form is useless. Just my two cents.

You know what 14 I have Okinawa and TKD and I was tought the same as you here is the set Bunkai but open your mind to all these other possibilities out there, keep an open mind and truely become one with your Art. Sorry could not resist adding my .02 cents here. carry on gentlemen.

 

[Danjo]

You know what 14 I have Okinawa and TKD and I was tought the same as you here is the set Bunkai but open your mind to all these other possibilities out there, keep an open mind and truely become one with your Art. Sorry could not resist adding my .02 cents here. carry on gentlemen.

The difference is that the forms from your respective systems are old and the original bunkai is lost, so what choice is there except to try to decode them? The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.

 

[marlon]

Nothing wrong with being creative and expanding on what you were taught. Just seems like a good idea to know what the original thinking was behind something if it's possible.

i agree completely with this, which is why i prefer to see the person who created the form actually do it...this is a very important point

marlon

 

[terryl965]

The difference is that the forms from your respective systems are old and the original bunkai is lost, so what choice is there except to try to decode them? The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.

Okinawa you are right but TKD yes General Choi passed but when he was alive he said the same thing and showed variation of the Tuls. In KKW thye are still very much around that invented the Poomsae and still they show other variationof said techs.

When I took some Kenpo the instructors always showed some different way to interped what it was they was teaching.

I will just be a by standard here and learn from those that have more knowledge about these forms.

 

[14 Kempo]

Nothing wrong with being creative and expanding on what you were taught. Just seems like a good idea to know what the original thinking was behind something if it's possible.

I agree, just not always possible. With ancient forms, cause the originators are no longer with us. With more current forms, especially SKK, cause people don't communicate. All we can do is move on, doesn't mean the forms are completely worthless.

 

[John Bishop]

that really goes both ways, as someone who practices modified version of much of the SKK material, we are befuddled by some of that stuff... jumping scissor kicks, slapping the floor - stuff like that.

Look at Kajukenbo "Palama Set 8". Those moves were never meant to have a typical bunkai type application. It's called the "kicking kata", there are no hand movements, just kicks. It's basically just a drill to practice various kicks.
Looks like some of those movements found their way into some of the SKK kata's. That's where interpretation problems begin, when techniques are taken out of sequence from one form and rearranged into another form.

Palama Set 8 vid clip

 

[DavidCC]

That's very interesting, and it does resemble in many sections some of Pesare's kata.

When I talk to our students about applications taken from kata, I see that they tend to want to be very literal, and that they tend to see the dividing lines between one application and the next in only the most obvious places. "Block, strike; oh that must be the end of this bunkai, on to the next one" but from what I have learned, it is not really that simple, and what some see as immaterial transitions between the obvious movesis often where te coolest stuff lies hidden.

This is one reason I am starting to favor SETS over KATAS, because nobody expects any hidden secrets in a SET. It is exactly what it appears to be. But people are always looking for "bunkai" in Kata, and seem sometimes to miss the forest for the trees.

But I have to ask... why does he place his hands on the ground in this form?

 

[John Bishop]

But I have to ask... why does he place his hands on the ground in this form?

To keep from falling over when you crouch that low. Again that kata doesn't have any "bunkai", your just practicing different kicks and balance.

 

[Matt]

The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.

Yep.

 

[marlon]

The same issue shouldn't exist with forms when the creator is still alive to clear these things up.[/quote]

Except Villari, master Fritz and master Grupposso are not talking outside the organization and frankly everyone i have met from in the organization is ...unaware that there are questions to be asked. So at this point one either quits or makes the best of things. My opinion is that the system is to good to quit and perhps master Fritz will step up or whenever Fred dies others will open up...but until then we take the advice of Master Ed Parker junior, and do not sell ourselves short!

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[ponaterchip]

I personally don't have this form yet but I currently train directly under one of GM Villari's Seven Dragons and can tell you from first hand experience he has the bunkai to every form. He tells me that that's how GM Villari teaches the forms. That is he learns the application right along with the movements of the form. When we work on bunkai there is a set "basic" application that is taught right along with the form, as well as a number of more advanced applications that we are meant to discover on our own. Thus forcing us to explore and better understand the material. I have also had experience with a couple of other Villari instructors who had no clue as to the bunkai because the didn't care to ask they just assumed they knew everything already.

I don't normally post on the net but felt this would add to this very interesting topic.

 

[Danjo]

I personally don't have this form yet but I currently train directly under one of GM Villari's Seven Dragons and can tell you from first hand experience he has the bunkai to every form. He tells me that that's how GM Villari teaches the forms. That is he learns the application right along with the movements of the form. When we work on bunkai there is a set "basic" application that is taught right along with the form, as well as a number of more advanced applications that we are meant to discover on our own. Thus forcing us to explore and better understand the material. I have also had experience with a couple of other Villari instructors who had no clue as to the bunkai because the didn't care to ask they just assumed they knew everything already.

I don't normally post on the net but felt this would add to this very interesting topic.

More dragons? Okay, I'll bite: What are Villari's 7 dragons?

 

[14 Kempo]

More dragons? Okay, I'll bite: What are Villari's 7 dragons?

Let me guess ... his seven top students

 

[ponaterchip]

The Seven Dragons are indeed Villari's top students (or in this case top masters). Their job is to keep the organization together after something happens to GM Villari as well as to teach the system the way he intended it to be taught (i.e. the correct bunkai).

Seven Dragons is just a title give to these masters within the organization that is all. It's just a name.

 

[marlon]

I personally don't have this form yet but I currently train directly under one of GM Villari's Seven Dragons and can tell you from first hand experience he has the bunkai to every form. He tells me that that's how GM Villari teaches the forms. That is he learns the application right along with the movements of the form. When we work on bunkai there is a set "basic" application that is taught right along with the form, as well as a number of more advanced applications that we are meant to discover on our own. Thus forcing us to explore and better understand the material. I have also had experience with a couple of other Villari instructors who had no clue as to the bunkai because the didn't care to ask they just assumed they knew everything already.

I don't normally post on the net but felt this would add to this very interesting topic.

thank you for your post and the courage you have to post here. You will find many here that are not necessarily pro-gm Villari. Most are here to grow and become better martial artists and or scientists . Personally i appreciate his system and contribution to the martial arts very much, and my experience with the business practices are..unfulfilling. I welcome you to share with us your positive experiences and knowledge and please do not let the bashing get to you. You are lucky to have the instructors you have!

respectfully,
marlon

 

[MeatWad2]

The Seven Dragons are indeed Villari's top students (or in this case top masters). Their job is to keep the organization together after something happens to GM Villari as well as to teach the system the way he intended it to be taught (i.e. the correct bunkai).

Seven Dragons is just a title give to these masters within the organization that is all. It's just a name.

In all honesty, I have to question the abilities of some of the 7 Dragons. I've seen them, and quite frankly, a couple of them don't deserve to be there at all. The techniques that I've seen them teach (either via video or in person) aren't effective at all. Why let a people like that take over the system? The person that should be Villari's top student is Master Fritz. Where is he nowadays? Not anywhere in a school from what I've understood...

 

[marlon]

In all honesty, I have to question the abilities of some of the 7 Dragons. I've seen them, and quite frankly, a couple of them don't deserve to be there at all. The techniques that I've seen them teach (either via video or in person) aren't effective at all. Why let a people like that take over the system? The person that should be Villari's top student is Master Fritz. Where is he nowadays? Not anywhere in a school from what I've understood...

Master Fritz is teaching and teaching very well from what i know. There was a Jshannon (sp?) on MT a while back who regularly learned from him. He has an impressive body of knowledge and skill master Fritz. Jshannon does not post on martial talk any more b/c he felt he had to defend his choice of organization overmuch. However, i do agree of all the top students of GM Villari John Fritz is clearly the only choice of successor...then there is politics which is not a useful topic of discussion

respectfully,
Marlon