Five Dragons Facing Four Winds

[Danjo]

So what kind of dragon are we talking about then? Komodo Dragon? Smaug from the Hobbit? Puff the Magic Dragon? How did a mythical creature (aside from the aforementioned Komodo) come to be identified with the sort of flexibility you describe? Most of the dragons I've heard of either just fly and spray fire out of their mouths or else play with "Little Jacky Paper" and his ball of twine.

 

[MarkC]

Komodo dragons are nasty beasts. I advise staying away from them.

 

[DavidCC]

So what kind of dragon are we talking about then? Komodo Dragon? Smaug from the Hobbit? Puff the Magic Dragon? How did a mythical creature (aside from the aforementioned Komodo) come to be identified with the sort of flexibility you describe? Most of the dragons I've heard of either just fly and spray fire out of their mouths or else play with "Little Jacky Paper" and his ball of twine.

Hey Dan I know you are bored with the summer off so why not go read some Chinese mythology. If you are interested in traditional martial arts it would do you some good.

but really I think you are more interested in mocking people; maybe your time would be better spent training.

 

[Danjo]

Hey Dan I know you are bored with the summer off so why not go read some Chinese mythology. If you are interested in traditional martial arts it would do you some good.

but really I think you are more interested in mocking people; maybe your time would be better spent training.

So this is a Chinese form then?

 

[marlon]

So what kind of dragon are we talking about then? Komodo Dragon? Smaug from the Hobbit? Puff the Magic Dragon? How did a mythical creature (aside from the aforementioned Komodo) come to be identified with the sort of flexibility you describe? Most of the dragons I've heard of either just fly and spray fire out of their mouths or else play with "Little Jacky Paper" and his ball of twine.

often in chinese mythology dragons are associated with magic and in particular shape shifting ability. the form was created by fred villari and he chose to use a chinese icon to convey what he wanted to teach thrtough the form and probably enjoyed the benefits of marketing something exotic as well. Nonetheless and very good form

marlon

 

[DavidCC]

So this is a Chinese form then?

it is as Chinese as Fred Villari could make it! ROFL

 

[Jdokan]

it is as Chinese as Fred Villari could make it! ROFL

This form came to fruition shortly after a meal at Weilus' Rt !1 North In Suagus, MA..... LOL.............

 

[MeatWad2]

In all honesty, when I learned the form from Mr. Villari, he said that the "5 dragons" are the 5 animals and the 4 winds are the 4 main directions one travels in (North, South, East and West). You guys are seriously making the form more difficult than it needs to be. Instead of complicating the thing, just take it for what it's worth.

 

[FeralKenpo]

This form seems so stagnant. In my experience with CMA their forms are more alive. I really hope I don't seem like I'm bashing this form or Villari but, what is with the falling down backwards onto the ground? What is he doing on the ground?

 

[marlon]

This form seems so stagnant. In my experience with CMA their forms are more alive. I really hope I don't seem like I'm bashing this form or Villari but, what is with the falling down backwards onto the ground? What is he doing on the ground?

the most basic application is a throw, judo has a similar move.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Danjo]

the most basic application is a throw, judo has a similar move.

respectfully,
Marlon

So he's practicing GETTING thrown? Kind of odd for a kata. Sort of like reacting to getting punched.

 

[DavidCC]

yeah Danjo, it's just that supid :/

uki waza
ura nage
yoko otoshi
hikikomi gaeshi
and more

now that you have that kaju BB maybe it's time for you to expand your horizons.

 

[Danjo]

yeah Danjo, it's just that supid :/

uki waza
ura nage
yoko otoshi
hikikomi gaeshi
and more

now that you have that kaju BB maybe it's time for you to expand your horizons.

Most of the time in kata, the reaction to an offensive technique is to demonstrate the defense for it, i.e., blocks for punches etc., not the reaction to having it done sucessfully to you. Not saying that breakfalls shouldn't be practiced, just that it's odd to see them in a form. If it is supposed to be demonstrating a throw as you suggest, then I just misread his post. The throws that you're talking about probably wouldn't fit in well with the Kaju philosophy of staying off the ground if possible.

 

[14 Kempo]

Ya know, maybe it's just me, but I would think you all might have a little more imagination. Could it not be that a person drops underneath say a side kick then racks 'em in say the privates, or maybe the front kick into the inner thigh then the side kick into the privates, before rolling out to the next opponent. And yes, I'm being sarcastic, open the mind. I don't know, I'm just using my imagination. I'll definately ask the question when I get the chance.

 

[Danjo]

Ya know, maybe it's just me, but I would think you all might have a little more imagination. Could it not be that a person drops underneath say a side kick then racks 'em in say the privates, or maybe the front kick into the inner thigh then the side kick into the privates, before rolling out to the next opponent. And yes, I'm being sarcastic, open the mind. I don't know, I'm just using my imagination. I'll definately ask the question when I get the chance.

Well, now you're hitting on one of my key issues with kata. Why should one have to use imagination at all? Why aren't the moves "bunkai" explained when the form is taught? It's not like some ancient Chinese or Okinawan form where the creators took their secrets to the grave. The guy who made this one up is still alive. Presumeably he had a particualr technique in mind when he put it in there no? Why do all of these black belts not know the bunkai for their forms?

 

[marlon]

Well, now you're hitting on one of my key issues with kata. Why should one have to use imagination at all? Why aren't the moves "bunkai" explained when the form is taught? It's not like some ancient Chinese or Okinawan form where the creators took their secrets to the grave. The guy who made this one up is still alive. Presumeably he had a particualr technique in mind when he put it in there no? Why do all of these black belts not know the bunkai for their forms?

there is a set of blocks then a trap pulling the person into the throw. that is the bunkai i have, i have not reason to believe that this is not what Villari taught. As for imagination, i agree that a cetrtain amount of preset application is good, then in order to grow and keep your practice 'alive' you need to see more and not limit yourself to one application. There are supposedly complete systems built around one form, if the bunkai one a single response for each move then this would be impossible,. Even with Okinawan and Chinese styles.

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Jdokan]

So he's practicing GETTING thrown? Kind of odd for a kata. Sort of like reacting to getting punched.

I think an important piece of the puzzle here is for the opponet that is getting throw is to being thinking "what could I do to defend against this?"
To me each time I am being the uki I think beyond just getting punched...(although there are times when you want to be lazy...Busy world you know)...Seriously...I try to always gauge/evaluate the effectiveness of the technique that is being used against me....My thoughts range from how can I get out of this to "Holy Crap!!! THAT was effective.... left me totally incapable of reacting"

I do though agree with your point that for some practitioners it may present the wrong training image....I never want my students/partners to practice getting hit....

 

[14 Kempo]

Well, now you're hitting on one of my key issues with kata. Why should one have to use imagination at all? Why aren't the moves "bunkai" explained when the form is taught? It's not like some ancient Chinese or Okinawan form where the creators took their secrets to the grave. The guy who made this one up is still alive. Presumeably he had a particualr technique in mind when he put it in there no? Why do all of these black belts not know the bunkai for their forms?

I have to agree with you there, but the point remains, why close off the mind? Does a move have no meaning because someone doesn't tell you what it is? I have some kung fu forms, and let me tell you, when I ask for bunkai, even from the GM, I get sometimes 5 or 6 possible applications for the movement in question. So, whether the person or persons that made the form passed on the original application or not, there are many possibilities. Just because the person that made the form isn't available to me to give me his/her thought doesn't mean the form is useless. Just my two cents.

 

[Danjo]

I have to agree with you there, but the point remains, why close off the mind? Does a move have no meaning because someone doesn't tell you what it is? I have some kung fu forms, and let me tell you, when I ask for bunkai, even from the GM, I get sometimes 5 or 6 possible applications for the movement in question. So, whether the person or persons that made the form passed on the original application or not, there are many possibilities. Just because the person that made the form isn't available to me to give me his/her thought doesn't mean the form is useless. Just my two cents.

I agree that that is what we are stuck with with many of the ancient forms. They only passed on the application to a few, or in some cases one, students and the rest of us are left scratching our heads as to what the move could have meant. Add the various stylistic changes over the years and pretty soon not even the creator of the form would recognize it. Oh well.

 

[14 Kempo]

I agree that that is what we are stuck with with many of the ancient forms. They only passed on the application to a few, or in some cases one, students and the rest of us are left scratching our heads as to what the move could have meant. Add the various stylistic changes over the years and pretty soon not even the creator of the form would recognize it. Oh well.

I guess we agree on something, or at least at some level. I just don't believe everything was meant to be black and white. Some times it benefits a person to open up the mind and think for themselves. My instructor and I go through some of this stuff and come up with various ways to apply the movements. They aren't always identical to the original, which plays to your comment of the creator not recognizing it, but then it enlightens and elevates the practitioner. So why is it wrong? I don't think it is, but I agree, some of these forms, especially those purposefully changed for no apparent reason other than to be different, from certain organizations not mentioned here, mainly in the SKK lineage, would not be recognized by the creator, and in many instances those changes may actually be laughed at and passed off as "ineffective".