First Months???

[Tez3]

Thanks again.

Another thing is that Wing Chun is supposed to be a simple martial art and easy to learn if you try. There are people there who have been there for a year and are still on the first form and "sifu" keeps telling them how rubbish they are.

I get the gut feeling that information is being held back to keep students as slaves, so they end up staying much longer than they need to. Most likely, this is something prevalent in loads of martial arts.



You thrive on someone mocking yours and others faults? Interesting perspective. I don't. I guess everyone is different.

I thrive from learning the skills and getting them right and generally try to relate to people with a courteous demeanor. It's fun to hear stories of other martial arts and share knowledge and experiences. That's how I was brought up. I don't take the piss out of people, I would assume it is not appropriate behaviour. That part could stem from empathy.

Or is it that there are an awful lot of extremely thick people out there who don't have the intelligence to make conversation and they are so patheticly insecure that they have to put others down to make themselves feel big and clever and important.

Ha, one more point I just remembered is the question I asked in the final class. "Do you want to keep your students?" The reply I got was: "pfft"

If the instructor is telling them they are rubbish after a year then the only one that truly is rubbish is the instructor! Your description of the way things are taught and they way the students behave demonstrates things that are unacceptable in any coaching/teaching situation regardless of which martial art or even which sport is being taught. My daughter is a cheer leading coach and she'd regard the things you describe as being unacceptable in her classes. I teach karate as well as MMA, in the latter we are considered less structured than TMA's but laughing at people, telling them they are rubbish and having people unable to ask questions lest they are laughed at are unacceptable, anyone 'rubbishing' another would be talked to strongly and if they persisted thrown out.
Find somewhere more congenial and discplined to train in.

 

[bully]

The Sifu sounds like a prick to be honest.

As for the students still being on the first form after a year, that is the only thing he is doing right by the sounds of it!! He shouldn't be telling them they are rubbish though.

That link made interesting reading, thanks.

What part of the world are you in noob? I know that this type of "banter" (as some see it) is more prevalent in UK/Oz than the US. Not that the US guys don't do it of course but I always found that the Americans I have met are respectful and polite. I know I know, I should be saying they are all loud and brash boasters, but honestly most of the guys I have met in a MA environment have been great.:ultracool

 

[Tez3]

The Sifu sounds like a prick to be honest.

As for the students still being on the first form after a year, that is the only thing he is doing right by the sounds of it!! He shouldn't be telling them they are rubbish though.

That link made interesting reading, thanks.

What part of the world are you in noob? I know that this type of "banter" (as some see it) is more prevalent in UK/Oz than the US. Not that the US guys don't do it of course but I always found that the Americans I have met are respectful and polite. I know I know, I should be saying they are all loud and brash boasters, but honestly most of the guys I have met in a MA environment have been great.:ultracool

What he is describing isn't 'banter', we have that in the MMA classes and it's certainly not what is going on in this guys classes.

 

[noob]

As for the students still being on the first form after a year

A year? Other reputable "experts" say you can learn the entire empty handed system in a year? How can the learning gap differ so much from one teacher to the next? I am suspicious of instructors holding back information to keep the student as a permanent income. The sooner people realise this is going on the faster they can develop.

Anyway I definitely felt that something was missing and information was being held back.

Unfortunately money makes the world go round, and I guess that in many cases, moving forward is sacrificed in favor of increasing revenues.

I hope any fellow noob's find this thread helpful when choosing a school

 

[mook jong man]

A year? Other reputable "experts" say you can learn the entire empty handed system in a year? How can the learning gap differ so much from one teacher to the next? I am suspicious of instructors holding back information to keep the student as a permanent income. The sooner people realise this is going on the faster they can develop.

Anyway I definitely felt that something was missing and information was being held back.

It was four years until I learned the second form Chum Kiu .
In our lineage after twenty years you are considered a junior master , you probably could try and mimic the movements of the whole system in one year , but you will have no stance and no power and thus your speed , power and reflex will be *****.
All Wing Chun power comes from the stance and the stance doesn't just happen over night , it takes many years.

Have you considered that maybe knowledge is not being held back , but the extent of the instructors knowledge has been reached.

Someone who runs a class like the way you say he does sounds very dodgy to me and just maybe his experience and credentials are not what they should be.

 

[noob]

It seems there are several arguments then. Experienced people who believe that it takes a long time and experienced people who think it can been learned in a year. Then the question is who to trust. I would be more inclined to trust someone who, first of all, skimmed over ALL the drills and forms, giving the students a taste of the entire system first (if they asked), and only then go right back to the beginning and perfect them to develop the power you speak of.

I wouldn't see this as a problem. But when an instructor argues and says he can't "reveal" those inner secrets yet, it really does make you wonder if you're being taken for a ride.

I just find it really odd how experts disagree about everything. One Wing Chun expert says one thing and the other totally disagrees. Now this is a worrying disagreement where some say "x" amount of time and some say "y".

What are your thoughts?

I at least want to be impressed from every lesson and at least enjoy it. It just wasnt happening in that place.



http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/making-a-monster/

 

[WCman1976]

I agree with mook jong man. You can learn all the forms inside of a month. Learning them is simply a matter of memorizing the proper sequence of techniques. Doing them RIGHT is another thing completely.

 

[mook jong man]

Despite what some marketing will have you believe Wing Chun is not simple.

The techniques appear outwardly to be very simple , but underneath the surface several things are going on at once.
Aspects such as the proper focusing of forward force , cultivation of a deep level of relaxation in key muscle groups , and skill in chi sau take many , many years to perfect.

 

[WCman1976]

I didn't say the style was simple. I was agreeing with a point you made earlier that learning all the forms is easy, but actually doing them properly is the hard part. I've gone to plenty of schools where, once you memorize the order of the techniques, the teacher will say, "All right, you are ready for the next form." Not so with wing chun.

 

[noob]

Argument taken into consideration. Thanks for all your input again.

BUT instructors should not have any problem demonstrating more advanced techniques or at least letting people have a go, otherwise it really does make you wonder if you're being taken for a ride.

Saying it takes so long is also an excellent customer retention and profit strategy, keeps students for years, and achieves "lock-in".

But hey I'm out of this thread now. Thanks for your help. Hopefully the new class will be better

It would nice to be at least impressed, satisfied, and worked-out properly after each lesson.

 

[mook jong man]

It seems there are several arguments then. Experienced people who believe that it takes a long time and experienced people who think it can been learned in a year. Then the question is who to trust. I would be more inclined to trust someone who, first of all, skimmed over ALL the drills and forms, giving the students a taste of the entire system first (if they asked), and only then go right back to the beginning and perfect them to develop the power you speak of.

The only problem with that is that certain things have to be internalized first before you will be able to understand and apply the concepts that will be required in more advanced techniques.
This takes time and much repetition for the information to be absorbed not only on a physical but a mental level.

Just skimming over the curriculum will result in flawed technique and incomplete understanding and quite likely a great deal of bad habits that should have been nipped in the bud from the outset.

It would be a bit like rushing the construction of a house , then finishing it and finding the light switches don't work , the plumbing doesn't work and the roof leaks.

Then you have to rip the house apart and pretty much start again and get everything fixed , whereas if you'd built a proper foundation and took your time following a proper progression you would have been better off.

It was unfortunate that you happened to find such a crappy school , don't waste anymore time and money there.
Chalk it up to experience , cut your losses , and hopefully your next school will be a good one whatever style it is.

 

[noob]

It was unfortunate that you happened to find such a crappy school , don't waste anymore time and money there.
Chalk it up to experience , cut your losses , and hopefully your next school will be a good one whatever style it is.

Will do thanks Mook Jong Man. Next one's still gonna be Wing Chun.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Good choice

 

[bully]

What he is describing isn't 'banter', we have that in the MMA classes and it's certainly not what is going on in this guys classes.

No mate I agree, I was wondering if he was from the UK as some see it as banter, I don't. Bloody internet and my inability to get my point across ;-)

Bullying is often disguised as "banter" in the UK, which is what I sort of asking.

Im just digging myself a hole here....:uhyeah:

Edit, also in regard to the what you can be taught in a year. I still think SLT only, but....I used to watch my seniors doing CK and BJ etc and that spurred me on.

 

[Tez3]

No mate I agree, I was wondering if he was from the UK as some see it as banter, I don't. Bloody internet and my inability to get my point across ;-)

Bullying is often disguised as "banter" in the UK, which is what I sort of asking.

Im just digging myself a hole here....:uhyeah:

Edit, also in regard to the what you can be taught in a year. I still think SLT only, but....I used to watch my seniors doing CK and BJ etc and that spurred me on.

I know what you mean though, it's the sort of thing that always ends with 'can't you take a joke' after they've said something offensive. In our club we tend not to have banter as such but we do have a good amount of craic! We all share the same sense of humour...warped lol!

 

[noob]

You are correct bully. Banter is just another word for abuse. Kind of like tax is just another word for robbery, and war another name for mass murder.

For some reason when the names of these words are changed it makes it acceptable.

 

[Tez3]

You are correct bully. Banter is just another word for abuse. Kind of like tax is just another word for robbery, and war another name for mass murder.

For some reason when the names of these words are changed it makes it acceptable.

I disagree, banter is banter, nothing wrong with that but when bullies are brought to book they often excuse what they are doing as banter, it gives banter a bad name. Bullying is bullying, no excuses, no reasons, it's unacceptable.
Tax is hardly robbery either, if you want running water, sewerage, fire brigades etc etc you need to pay for them and taxes is how. If you are attacked or invaded then war is hardly an excuse to commit mass murder. Life isn't that black or white.

 

[geezer]

Banter? It all depends on how it's meant and how it's taken. My old training partner used to be the master of banter. Of course he was more overweight and balding than I, but man he could lay it on, non-stop... especially when the gang would go out for a beer after class. More than once he ripped into me so ruthlessly that I practically blew my drink out my nose and laughed myself out of my barstool. If it's meant in good fun, that's how I take it. If not... well then that's another story.

 

[Tez3]

Banter? It all depends on how it's meant and how it's taken. My old training partner used to be the master of banter. Of course he was more overweight and balding than I, but man he could lay it on, non-stop... especially when the gang would go out for a beer after class. More than once he ripped into me so ruthlessly that I practically blew my drink out my nose and laughed myself out of my barstool. If it's meant in good fun, that's how I take it. If not... well then that's another story.

I'm suspect that when we say banter we are talking about different things according to our nationality.

British http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/banter_1 "conversation which is funny and not serious"

We don't insult each other, it's just not talking seriously.

 

[noob]

I disagree, banter is banter, nothing wrong with that but when bullies are brought to book they often excuse what they are doing as banter, it gives banter a bad name. Bullying is bullying, no excuses, no reasons, it's unacceptable.

Yes I agree with the first bit, it gives banter a band name (I thought banter meant something different). I don't find insulting people funny. I guess some people think it's funny to laugh about others misfortune. People seem to use banter as an excuse to be mean. I've heard it loads: "you fat bald loser", "it's just banter", "it's funny". So its like disguised abuse in the name of banter when its not banter.

Tax is hardly robbery either, if you want running water, sewerage, fire brigades etc etc you need to pay for them and taxes is how. If you are attacked or invaded then war is hardly an excuse to commit mass murder. Life isn't that black or white.

Someone taking your belongings without consent and threatening to lock you away if you refuse to comply is robbery. Here's the definition of robbery:The felonious taking of personal property from someone using force or the threat of force. Now that is income tax.

Sorry but remove the life-long brainwashing and indoctrination and that's what it is.