Finger Set

[MJS]

Yeah, I dunno guys. I been lurking on this thread, waiting for someone to get to principles of enunciation and diction as related to vocabulary (from Wikipedia -- "the art of speaking clearly so that each word is clearly heard and understood to its fullest complexity and extremity"). But that just takes us back to "how", not "what". And as I've said before -- and one of the reasons I get such a bang out of Docs stuff -- is that kenpo really is two concurrantly running systems, each relying on the other for completion.

One system is the "what". Striking Set is a choreographed set of punches, backnuckles, hammerfists, etc. Anyone can get the "what" from a book, if they learned to read kenpoese. "How" is what makes Striking set interesting...the paths and angles for hooking, slicing, chopping, clipping and smothering blows; the path taken to and from the "what" while using your body thusly -- that's the how. Yet, 99.9% of the folks I watch do it don't apply these paths, and stop "at" their imagined targets, instead of passing "through" them, which brings the set to life in this study of paths and arcs.

Finger Set doesn't have anything inherently right or wrong with it. It's just a clump of sculptors clay. A "what". Turning that clay into something meaningful by paying attention to the details make it into a piece of art. The movement of the sculptors hands to define the arcs and curves of the paths, the dialogue between body and brain that inspects, discovers, then refines muscle firing sequences; the increasing awareness of application...

A student asked me the other day (already a black belt in another lineage, who works out with BB's from still other lineages) if the finger hooks at the end are applied from the front, the side, or from behind. I answered, "Yes." Then we looked at all of them, as well as their application in latching on to natural handles all over the body...windpipes, flesh of the armpits, hamstrings, love handles, achilles tendons, flesh inside the biceps, the biceps themselves, ear flaps, even fingers and toes going into small circle manipulations. And my favorite grisly application, inside one eye socket then out the other, pulling on the bridge of the nose from behind.

Mr. Parker used to say the body was full of handles to grab on to. This is one of the great hand formations for grabbing on to them. Shows up in kenpo a couple of times...anybody ever really isolate it for an afternoon of training and conditioning? What would happen if you did?

I've used the finger slice in a fight against a guy with a knife (only got the inward in; it was over before I could get the outward off)...parried the blade down (cutting myself with it...careful out there folks) while essentially lifting his cornea right off his eye. He didn't wanna fight anymore after that. Buddy of mine in high school -- a purple belt at Joe Dimmicks local Sam Pai Kenpo school -- "beat up"??? the high school football meathead thug by retreating away from his advances (crossovers away while in a reverse bow), while applying several underhand fingerwhips (shape of the crane) to the groin of his progressively shrinking attacker. Big man made small by moves from the Finger Set, in the space of seconds and a couple of strides.

I've used the overhand finger whip to the eye to put a guy down without injuring him -- it has two interpretations...one is to finger spear over the top of the eye, rotate your hand to grab hold of it, then pluck it out. The other is as a "limpy", whip-snapping the eye like you're trying to leave a welt with a locker rooom towel. It worked great. Hurts like heck, dropping the guy as both his hands fly to that eyeball and his eyes start watering & he starts panicking; but doesn't do anymore damage than can be fixed with a good nights sleep and a cold pack.

The 4-finger spear to the body -- I'm not fond of it either, but Mr. P. used it once to grab my lower ribs. Speared, pushed, and made a light fist with my ribs enveloped in his hand; I got immediately on my tippy toes, but couldn't get high enough to retreat away from the pressure on the stuff there (yes, it was the "now-infamous in my mind" chat about handles being all over the body). I don't think I ever got my fingers quite that strong, but have -- and still do -- use finger spears to the body in drills, sparring etc. Not to the floaters, cuz I don't like the possibility of rolling off the targets with a less-than-perfect angle of incidence. To the chest muscles and the crease between the pecs and the shoulder (people can't punch very well after that); to the medial boundary of the shoulder blade, and even to the stomach. But I've trained for it.

In Secrets of Chinese Karate, we're admonished to get a couple of buckets, and do hand conditioning on things like beans, rice, and sand. So I did. I also lived near the beach and went body-surfing daily, even in the winter storms. I would thrust my hands into the sand, then squeeze a handful of sand firmly to condition my fingers and my grip. I haven't done that for years, so I don't get the same effect in the strikes I used to; plus, now my finger joints feel sprained when I do it (they didn't when I did the contact resistance training regularly). So, there's always the issue of -- are you doing the weapons conditioning necessary to turn the move from being just a move, to a tempered weapon?

If not, that's fine. Just recognize that the inability to apply the technique is a personal limitation reflecting a choice to have your training time and efforts extend only to class time and class activities; more people are martial hobbyists than martial artists, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean the move is broken -- it means you don't choose to put in the time to make it applicable and dangerous.

If you're unable to see the combat applications of training Finger Set, it's either because you or your instructor never put the time in to actually study it, train it with intent, bothered to delve into it of your own accord, or you simply lack imagination. The set's fine; the knowledge to apply it is lacking. The will to find the knowledge may have never been.

And so, slowly...with a series of echoing whispers but no bang, kenpo dies.

As always, great post Dave. I always enjoy your input. Again, for the record, I dont want to sound like I'm crapping on the set. Thats not the case. Personally, I do see a ton of value in the pokes, whips, hooks, etc. that are in the set. Many times, while going thru techniques, not so much the preset ones, but spontaneous training, I find that those things fit in where you'd least expect them.

As I said to Mike, it was the spears that I was questioning. Going the extra mile and taking the time to condition the hands, is something that is good, but I'd bet that its something that not everyone does.

The spear to grab the ribs...that reminds me of Missing In Action 2, I believe it was, where Chuck did that, to the camp dictator during their final fight. Yes, I was holding my own ribs while watching that, cringing at the pain. LOL!

To each his own though. As I said, I'm not saying there is no value in the set, just that I personally would not nor would I encourage anyone to hit a hard target in that fashion.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I think this thread may have gotten a bit off track, as I'm not questioning the set per se, but the applications. Its taught with spear hands to the ribs. I'm simply asking if this is a practical move, if this was the way it was originally taught, or if somewhere down the road, it was changed.

Perfectly fine move, provided you put in the legwork. Which most people won't. Finger push-ups during class warm-up; buckets of rice, makiwara, and finger-boards during free-time open mat; etc.

Had lunch with a visiting Senior a couple years ago, and he put the progressive death of kenpo in a cute way. He said, "What if Mr. Parker taught that, as part of the closing salutation of Short Form 1, you had to go for a 2-mile run, because conditioning is such an important part of fighting? You would have had these guys in the 50's and 60's running for two miles, several times a night, each time they reviewed Short 1. Couple years go by, and someone decides it's too time consuming and disuptive to the class, so they modify the salutation by having everyone run in place for a minute, saying "This is the part where you'd go for a 2-mile run when practiting the form at home".

Students in that class go on to become teachers, and because 1 minute of running in place is a distraction in class, they change it to a couple of march steps to represent the running, forgetting to mention that "this is where you'd go for a 2-mile run". One of HIS students goes on to become a teacher, and can't figger out wotdahell the little marching steps are for, so he drops them. His next generation of students is too out of shape to even learn or do Short Form 1, so they drop it. And slowly, with an echo of whispers (people talking amonst themselves that -- since they can't figger out what the moves are for, they mst not be for much) but no bang, kenpo dies.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

As always, great post Dave. I always enjoy your input. Again, for the record, I dont want to sound like I'm crapping on the set. Thats not the case. Personally, I do see a ton of value in the pokes, whips, hooks, etc. that are in the set. Many times, while going thru techniques, not so much the preset ones, but spontaneous training, I find that those things fit in where you'd least expect them.

As I said to Mike, it was the spears that I was questioning. Going the extra mile and taking the time to condition the hands, is something that is good, but I'd bet that its something that not everyone does.

The spear to grab the ribs...that reminds me of Missing In Action 2, I believe it was, where Chuck did that, to the camp dictator during their final fight. Yes, I was holding my own ribs while watching that, cringing at the pain. LOL!

To each his own though. As I said, I'm not saying there is no value in the set, just that I personally would not nor would I encourage anyone to hit a hard target in that fashion.

I didn't think you were capping on it, and think the inquiry in the OP is a valid one. The theme of the comments following it concerned me, as they reflect a trend in group-think to water down the commitment behind the training, even as information gets lost in a generational game of telephone.

Teaching since 1980, I've only ever had one student willing to put in the work in the Tempered Palm training. So I teach the move, telling people, "This move will break your fingers if you don't put the time in...if you put in the time, it can break his ribs, instead", then modify it to an uppercut path to the carotid artery in the neck or mylohyoid muscle under the jaw. I just tell them -- if they ever have a student who wants to know -- the proper move is to the gut, and it requires a prescriptive course of tempering.

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually, I'm the opposite of what you describe above, ...

fair enough. I was just noticing a number of posts stating that the set isn't worth much because of X or Y or Z reason, and it seemed to me like it was desirous of finding common consent. That's what sparked my comment. Common consent doesn't matter. Common consent could agree that something is worthless, but that doen't necessarily mean it's true.

 

[MJS]

Perfectly fine move, provided you put in the legwork. Which most people won't. Finger push-ups during class warm-up; buckets of rice, makiwara, and finger-boards during free-time open mat; etc.

Well, you're right, thats the thing...how many will put in the time? I've had my share of hand issues since I was born, so yes, I take precaution as to what I do/don't do. Additionally, if I were to do something like that, I'm not going to just start driving my hands into rice, sand, etc., until I'm properly instructed on how to do it. As with any type of conditioning, there is a right way and a wrong way.

Had lunch with a visiting Senior a couple years ago, and he put the progressive death of kenpo in a cute way. He said, "What if Mr. Parker taught that, as part of the closing salutation of Short Form 1, you had to go for a 2-mile run, because conditioning is such an important part of fighting? You would have had these guys in the 50's and 60's running for two miles, several times a night, each time they reviewed Short 1. Couple years go by, and someone decides it's too time consuming and disuptive to the class, so they modify the salutation by having everyone run in place for a minute, saying "This is the part where you'd go for a 2-mile run when practiting the form at home".

Students in that class go on to become teachers, and because 1 minute of running in place is a distraction in class, they change it to a couple of march steps to represent the running, forgetting to mention that "this is where you'd go for a 2-mile run". One of HIS students goes on to become a teacher, and can't figger out wotdahell the little marching steps are for, so he drops them. His next generation of students is too out of shape to even learn or do Short Form 1, so they drop it. And slowly, with an echo of whispers (people talking amonst themselves that -- since they can't figger out what the moves are for, they mst not be for much) but no bang, kenpo dies.

People will change things, and often its not for the better. I'm sure we all have said at some point in our training, that there are things that we personally would never do, yet we still teach them, because there many be someone who does find value in it. And I'd go so far as to say that anyone who says that they think everything in the art is 100% perfecto is slinging some bull. There are things, some techs, that I'd never do, yet I still teach them, because as I said, the person I'm teaching may find value in it. Does that mean I'm contributing to the lets kill Kenpo cause? IMO, no.

Of course, we can't always fault the teacher for the way they teach, think, etc. and heres why. I know I've seen it, and I'm sure you have too. A question is asked, something is said, and next thing you hear is, "Oh, so and so doesnt know the real Kenpo. Here, look at this youtube clip of them. Look at how crappy their stances are. No, only (insert name here) knows 'the real Kenpo'. I've seen people bash others on the KN, because of who they train with. I really dont want to get into the name game, but due to the fact that you visit the KN, I'm more than sure you know full well who I'm talking about.

My point of all this is...we can't always control who we train with. If it was that easy for me, I'd pack my stuff up, head to Ca, and start training in Kajukenbo, due to the fact that there're no Kaju schools where I live. But doing that not only means I disrupt my life, but that of my wife. So, we train with who is available to us. Now, dont mistake this as me saying I'm unhappy with my teachers. Thats not the case at all, because I'm VERY happy with them. There have been many times when I've said that I had wished that I had found them sooner.

 

[MJS]

I didn't think you were capping on it, and think the inquiry in the OP is a valid one. The theme of the comments following it concerned me, as they reflect a trend in group-think to water down the commitment behind the training, even as information gets lost in a generational game of telephone.

Teaching since 1980, I've only ever had one student willing to put in the work in the Tempered Palm training. So I teach the move, telling people, "This move will break your fingers if you don't put the time in...if you put in the time, it can break his ribs, instead", then modify it to an uppercut path to the carotid artery in the neck or mylohyoid muscle under the jaw. I just tell them -- if they ever have a student who wants to know -- the proper move is to the gut, and it requires a prescriptive course of tempering.

Let me ask you this Dave. How did Mr Parker teach this set back in the day? Did he teach the spear hands? Did he do or emphasise the hand conditioning to his students? I ask this, because I get the impression that back in the day, he was pretty hardcore. I never had the chance to meet that man, unfortunately.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Let me ask you this Dave. How did Mr Parker teach this set back in the day? Did he teach the spear hands? Did he do or emphasise the hand conditioning to his students? I ask this, because I get the impression that back in the day, he was pretty hardcore. I never had the chance to meet that man, unfortunately.

About the post above the one in quotes here, the "quietly killing kenpo" was originally aimed at me. While I teach the system (mostly), there are maybe 65-ish techs out of the slew I train on a regular basis. They, to me, best encapsulate the movement patterns, concepts and principles, paths & angles, etc. The remainder are unecessarily redundant, and often present us with bad habits or faulty logic...thinking of the tech like a syllogism, some of the premises are faulty, or some of the conclusions that follow. So while I pass them on, making sure students have understanding of them, I can be found in my private training time ignoring nigh on 3/4 of the cirriculum: I'd rather spend my time on the heavy bag or makiwara refining one good punch, than on 50 more techniques with downward elbows to the meat of the back, followed by coverouts while the guy's still uninjured by poor weapons selections from inefficient relative positions.

As for the part in the quote, my time with Mr. P. was at the tail end of his years, so I wasn't around him in the early days. I DID train with some guys who were, and they all had very strong emphases on extensive weapon tempering. Regular push-ups and sit-ups as a white belt got replaced with hundreds of finger push-ups in different variations by the time you hit purple. Some of the "warm-ups" were sadistic, so I started showing up fashionably late to avoid them:
100 5 finger push-ups
100 3 finger push-ups
100 Immortal Man push-ups
100 thumb push-ups (ala Thrusting Prongs)
etc. Bouncing plyo finger push ups, where you spring off your hands, clap, land again, all on finger tips.
Spider Push ups...5 fingers, wide grip, feet spread as if sprawled. Wrist push ups, hands folded underneath. Gawds, I hate push ups.

Single finger push ups against a wall (so you weight less, but still get the resistance training), 100 for each finger.

I started a student on her finger board last night, tapping on the board hard enough as if to knock lightly on somebody's door. Basically, 10 taps of each hand formation in the system on one hand, then ten on the other, Then 20 on the first hand, 20 on the other. Up to 100. Her fingers will be sore this morning. This is getting combined with the old regimen of finger push-ups. In a month, she'll be able to 5 finger spear someone in the chest, and knock them back with it, no injury to her hand. In 2 months, her vertical 4-finger thrust to the carotid artery will drop someone from the vascular pain. Her horizontal 2-finger thrust will fit quite nicely into an attackers eye socket, and not waver because of finger weakness. Her inward and outward 2-finger slices will not bend when they run into the resistance offered by the sclera/lens/cornea complex, and rake them right off. Her palm-heel/rakes will actually embed into the flesh, hooking loose flappy bits, and dragging them along for the ride on the tearing action. In other words, she will finally be a kenpoist.

To elaborate on that, in the 70's, each system/style had a thing; a brand. You knew some thing X was going to happen if you locked up with a guy from such-and-such a style. If you went up against a TKD guy? You're gonna get kicked. If you go up against a kyokushinkai guy? You're getting a rib busted with a body punch. If you go up against a judo guy? You're gonna get slammed into the asphalt. If you go up against a kenpo guy? You're gonna lose an eye, or get a knee broken (that was another brilliant thing from the older days...lotsa emphasis on kicks against the knees...then came liability & insurance issues... Ah, well.). I always thought the quintessential Kenpo technique was Darting Leaves, because it had both the eyes, and the knees, demonstrated with checks, angles, multiplicity, etc., over in the span of a flash. If someone was going to only ever teach one kenpo technique solution, with 50 different entries to GET to that solution, it should be Darting Leaves. Darting Leaves against a punch (inside and outside line), knife attacks from sundry angles, clubs, gun threats, etc., wristgrabs, holds, etc. Teach a prefix that reins in the attack and places the guy in the croisshairs of DL, and let'her rip.

Mr. P purportedly trained his hands to excess in the iron palm/tempered palm tradition. Although it may have just been genetics, his fingers were super thick and super strong. I don't think he did it in his later years; my guess is that it's more about learning a certain amount of coordination in the face of resistance, than it is "staying tough".

Sorry...short question, windbag answer.

D.

 

[KenpoDave]

I think this thread may have gotten a bit off track, as I'm not questioning the set per se, but the applications. Its taught with spear hands to the ribs. I'm simply asking if this is a practical move, if this was the way it was originally taught, or if somewhere down the road, it was changed.

Don't know how it was originally taught, or if it has been changed, but having executed spear hands and finger strikes to the ribs, yes, it is practical, provided that you have a weapon capable of executing it. After a very little bit of conditioning, I was able to drop people with shots to the ribs with either fingertips or a single knuckle. The conditioning I did/do is on a heavy bag.

I was at a seminar about 25 years ago, and a slightly elderly man teaching the seminar was warming up with index finger pushups. I asked him the purpose of that type of conditioning, and his response was to stand up and jab his right index finger THRU a leather heavy bag. He explained to me that his training had been very slow and progressive, no breaks or strains, and he still had full mobility in his fingers.

I have not done near that much or sort of conditioning, but I can execute finger strikes to the ribs, kick with the end of my big toe, and punch with my bare hand to the forehead.

It's like kicking. Kicking above the waist is not practical, so say the people who don't have the skill to make those kicks practical. Fingertip strikes to the ribs are not practical to people who do not have the necessary skill to execute fingertip strikes to the ribs. And I feel that those people are missing out on a large part of what the kenpo arsenal has to offer.

 

[KenpoDave]

Mr. P purportedly trained his hands to excess in the iron palm/tempered palm tradition. Although it may have just been genetics, his fingers were super thick and super strong. I don't think he did it in his later years; my guess is that it's more about learning a certain amount of coordination in the face of resistance, than it is "staying tough".

It has long been my opinion that weapon conditioning is more about this than anything else.

 

[stickarts]

From the questions I have asked and the research that I have done, it sounds like the finger set was GM Parkers version. By that I mean that some other arts also have finger jabbing sets or drills. As just one example

The Kenpo finger set is an isolation to practice the items I mentioned in my previous post. I think it is common sense that if you plan on actually striking a hard target with fingers then you do need to properly train the hands and students should be made aware of this. I think it is also important to remember that when practicing an entire art, we are practicing not only probable moves, but also possible moves. It is possible to use finger jabs with proper conditioning. It is interesting to check out some of the finger jabbing sets that are out there. Youtube has some variations out there. Also, good info by all on the previous posts.

 

[MJS]

About the post above the one in quotes here, the "quietly killing kenpo" was originally aimed at me. While I teach the system (mostly), there are maybe 65-ish techs out of the slew I train on a regular basis. They, to me, best encapsulate the movement patterns, concepts and principles, paths & angles, etc. The remainder are unecessarily redundant, and often present us with bad habits or faulty logic...thinking of the tech like a syllogism, some of the premises are faulty, or some of the conclusions that follow. So while I pass them on, making sure students have understanding of them, I can be found in my private training time ignoring nigh on 3/4 of the cirriculum: I'd rather spend my time on the heavy bag or makiwara refining one good punch, than on 50 more techniques with downward elbows to the meat of the back, followed by coverouts while the guy's still uninjured by poor weapons selections from inefficient relative positions.

As for the part in the quote, my time with Mr. P. was at the tail end of his years, so I wasn't around him in the early days. I DID train with some guys who were, and they all had very strong emphases on extensive weapon tempering. Regular push-ups and sit-ups as a white belt got replaced with hundreds of finger push-ups in different variations by the time you hit purple. Some of the "warm-ups" were sadistic, so I started showing up fashionably late to avoid them:
100 5 finger push-ups
100 3 finger push-ups
100 Immortal Man push-ups
100 thumb push-ups (ala Thrusting Prongs)
etc. Bouncing plyo finger push ups, where you spring off your hands, clap, land again, all on finger tips.
Spider Push ups...5 fingers, wide grip, feet spread as if sprawled. Wrist push ups, hands folded underneath. Gawds, I hate push ups.

Single finger push ups against a wall (so you weight less, but still get the resistance training), 100 for each finger.

I started a student on her finger board last night, tapping on the board hard enough as if to knock lightly on somebody's door. Basically, 10 taps of each hand formation in the system on one hand, then ten on the other, Then 20 on the first hand, 20 on the other. Up to 100. Her fingers will be sore this morning. This is getting combined with the old regimen of finger push-ups. In a month, she'll be able to 5 finger spear someone in the chest, and knock them back with it, no injury to her hand. In 2 months, her vertical 4-finger thrust to the carotid artery will drop someone from the vascular pain. Her horizontal 2-finger thrust will fit quite nicely into an attackers eye socket, and not waver because of finger weakness. Her inward and outward 2-finger slices will not bend when they run into the resistance offered by the sclera/lens/cornea complex, and rake them right off. Her palm-heel/rakes will actually embed into the flesh, hooking loose flappy bits, and dragging them along for the ride on the tearing action. In other words, she will finally be a kenpoist.

To elaborate on that, in the 70's, each system/style had a thing; a brand. You knew some thing X was going to happen if you locked up with a guy from such-and-such a style. If you went up against a TKD guy? You're gonna get kicked. If you go up against a kyokushinkai guy? You're getting a rib busted with a body punch. If you go up against a judo guy? You're gonna get slammed into the asphalt. If you go up against a kenpo guy? You're gonna lose an eye, or get a knee broken (that was another brilliant thing from the older days...lotsa emphasis on kicks against the knees...then came liability & insurance issues... Ah, well.). I always thought the quintessential Kenpo technique was Darting Leaves, because it had both the eyes, and the knees, demonstrated with checks, angles, multiplicity, etc., over in the span of a flash. If someone was going to only ever teach one kenpo technique solution, with 50 different entries to GET to that solution, it should be Darting Leaves. Darting Leaves against a punch (inside and outside line), knife attacks from sundry angles, clubs, gun threats, etc., wristgrabs, holds, etc. Teach a prefix that reins in the attack and places the guy in the croisshairs of DL, and let'her rip.

Mr. P purportedly trained his hands to excess in the iron palm/tempered palm tradition. Although it may have just been genetics, his fingers were super thick and super strong. I don't think he did it in his later years; my guess is that it's more about learning a certain amount of coordination in the face of resistance, than it is "staying tough".

Sorry...short question, windbag answer.

D.

Thanks for the reply and clarification. And no, this wasn't a windbag reply, it was, as always, well thought out and detailed.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Here's Ed Parker doing finger set. It starts at 4:24. Notice there is not the worthless little "windshield wiper" motion with a locked arm, moving just the wrist at 4:47.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT9QeGUriGI&feature=channel

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Here's Ed Parker doing finger set. It starts at 4:24. Notice there is not the worthless little "windshield wiper" motion with a locked arm, moving just the wrist at 4:47.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT9QeGUriGI&feature=channel

Thanks for digging that up for us. There is another one I had on a now-deceased computer, of Mr. P. back in the very early days, dressed in street clothes and doing it in what I have been led to believe was his driveway at the time. Been trying to find it, to no avail. Ah, well...whaddyagonnado.

D

 

[KenpoDave]

Here's Ed Parker doing finger set. It starts at 4:24. Notice there is not the worthless little "windshield wiper" motion with a locked arm, moving just the wrist at 4:47.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT9QeGUriGI&feature=channel

Thanks.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

What many fail to realize is that Finger Set introduces us to many of the advanced angles of entry and moments of rotational torque that feed and fuel motion patterns utilized in advanced kenpo. Dismissing the set prematurely due to difficulty, lack of understanding paths of action, failure of weapons formation, etc, will lock one out of the "Iron Fan" patterns that stem naturally from Finger Set and the green belt-up techs.

Just sayin'.

D.

 

[Carol]

That would have been really good info to have when I was first trying to learn it

When its just the motions that are taught, its damn frustrating to learn. That still might not have helped my mood that day though - I really wanted to be hittin' people :lol: