Finger Set

[MJS]

While reading a thread on this set on KN, I started to think about the moves that we do when performing this. If we look at how its performed, we see various hand strikes to various parts of the body. Now, I'm not questioning the strikes to the eyes, the groin or what would be considered the soft target areas, but I'm wondering about the strikes to the rib/solar plexus. I consider those to be hard target areas, therefore, why are we putting our hand at risk of injury? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't do iron palm training, so on the surface, it appears that we run the risk of injuring the fingers by striking these areas.

Perhaps I'm missing a key move here, so at this time, I'd like to open the discussion to others, to hear your thoughts on this.

Mike

 

[Twin Fist]

gotta tell the truth, i have always thoguht the finger set, and most of the finger techniques to be sort of silly

 

[just2kicku]

While reading a thread on this set on KN, I started to think about the moves that we do when performing this. If we look at how its performed, we see various hand strikes to various parts of the body. Now, I'm not questioning the strikes to the eyes, the groin or what would be considered the soft target areas, but I'm wondering about the strikes to the rib/solar plexus. I consider those to be hard target areas, therefore, why are we putting our hand at risk of injury? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't do iron palm training, so on the surface, it appears that we run the risk of injuring the fingers by striking these areas.

Perhaps I'm missing a key move here, so at this time, I'd like to open the discussion to others, to hear your thoughts on this.

Mike

I have to agree with you, Mike. I can see the soft target areas, but as far as the solar plexus and under the floating rib, I would rather use a half fist. Broken fingers just seem like no fun to me.

I honestly don't know what a "finger set" is, so this is just my opinion from what I've read.

 

[shesulsa]

Mike, this is the only Kenpo form I ever fully learned - can I share what I remember learning?

I seem to recall that Finger Set was taught to me as more of a hand conditioning and positioning exercise as well as a striking exercise (exercise meaning when we talk about purpose of form).

I completely agree with you about the strikes to the solar plexus and floating rib. I'd heard the theory that the hands could/should be conditioned and strengthened enough to be able to pierce bone with these strikes and I've seen a couple of videos where it appears these strikes break boards, but ... my doubts remain.

I still think the form has merit, however, especially in practicing these strikes to viable soft targets.

:asian:

 

[stickarts]

The finger set isn't a self defense technique, but it is designed to teach the finger shapes, ranges, methods of execution, possible 2 person defense, and inserts.
I agree that I would not use fingers to the ribs, however, I don't see the set to be intended to be used in that way. This is why it is called a "set", or index of information. Just my 2 cents. :0)

 

[MJS]

Thank you all for your replies. I agree, that in this case, it is teaching specific hand movements, strikes, etc that can be used in a variety of situations. I guess what was catching my eye was this:


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]

1. Execute a right 2 finger horizontal hand spear to your attacker's left eye.[/SIZE]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2. Execute a left 2 finger horizontal hand spear to your attacker's right eye.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3. Execute a mid-range right vertical 3 finger hand spear to the attacker's solar plexus.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4. Execute a mid-range left vertical 3 finger hand spear to the attacker's solar plexus.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]5. Execute a short range right upward 4 finger hand spear (palm up) below the left floating rib of the attacker.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]6. Execute a short range left upward 4 finger hand spear (palm up) below the right floating rib of the attacker.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]7. Execute a left back elbow to your rear attacker's solar plexus as you simultaneously strike over your left shoulder with a right 2 finger horizontal thrust.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]8. Execute a right back elbow to your rear attacker's solar plexus as you simultaneously strike over your right shoulder with a left 2 finger horizontal thrust.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]9. Bring the two fingers of your right hand next to your left hand at your right shoulder in preparation for the next move. Execute two downward finger slices that whip into your attacker's eyes and rake down.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]10. Execute, with both hands, vertical two finger spears to your attacker's eyes (left thrusts to right eye and right thrusts to left eye.)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]11. As you return your hands to point of origin, cross the wrists right over left. Execute two vertical one finger eye pokes that scissor inward as you extend the strikes slicing inward across the opponent’s eyes.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]12. Right hand cocks coiled in a crane hand (fingers down and toward opponent) as your left hand checks down at the groin.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]13. Execute a right overhead finger whip.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]14. Your left hand cocks coiled in a crane hand (fingers down and toward opponent) as your right hand checks down at the groin.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]15. Check down clockwise with your left hand (suppressing check) as the right and cocks behind and to the right of your right hip in a crane hand (palm up and fingers pointed toward the opponent); execute a right downward finger whip from your right hip into your attacker's groin fulcrum the whipping weapon at your wrist to accelerate the end of the weapon before returning it to point of origin.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]16. Circle the right hand counterclockwise to check down with your right left hand in front of your groin (suppressing check), as the right hand cocks behind and to the right of your right hip in a crane hand (palm up and fingers pointed toward the opponent); execute a right downward finger whip from your right hip into your attacker's groin fulcrum the whipping weapon at your wrist to accelerate the end of the weapon before returning it to point of origin.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]17. Circle your left hand clockwise checking down and in front of your groin (suppressing check) as your right hand circles counterclockwise to eye level (interlocking circles); execute a closed inward right two finger slice (palm up) to your attacker's left eye and immediately rotate your wrist counterclockwise so you are now positioned to execute[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]an outward 2 finger slice back to the right, with your palm down. Execute the outward right 2 finger slice.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]18. Circle your right hand counterclockwise checking down and in front of your groin (suppressing check) as your left hand circles clockwise to eye level (interlocking circles); execute a closed inward left two finger slice (palm up) to your attacker's right eye and immediately rotate your wrist clockwise so you are now positioned to execute an[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]outward 2 finger slice back to the left, with your palm down. Execute the outward 2 finger slice.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]19. Execute a right thrusting 5 finger claw to your attacker's face. Rotate your wrist counterclockwise then clockwise, raking the eyes with your fingers but maintaining contact with the outside heel of the hand (windshield wipers).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]20. Execute a left thrusting 5 finger claw to your attacker's face. Rotate your wrist clockwise then clockwise, raking the eyes with your fingers but maintaining contact with the outside heel of the hand (windshield wipers).[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]21. Execute a right inward overhead claw towards 12:00 as you simultaneously execute a left back underhand claw to 6:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]22. Execute a left inward overhead claw towards 12:00 as you simultaneously execute a right rear underhand claw to 6:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]23. Execute simultaneous underhand claws, a right underhand claw towards 12:00 and a left back claw towards 6:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]24. Execute simultaneous underhand claws, a left underhand claw towards 12:00 and a right underhand claw towards 12:00.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]25. Execute double upward spear hand thrust into your attacker's throat eyes at 12:00, followed by 2 outward raking claws to the eyes.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]26. Execute two outward claws; one towards 9:00 and one towards 3:00; follow through with double heel palm strikes to your thighs and demonstrate the fulcrum effect as your wrists straighten and your fingertips touch the vastus lateralus in a claw position.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]27. Execute a right vertical 2 finger thrust to their left eye at 12:00, hook inward and pull hand back to chest with fingers pointing up.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]28. Execute a left vertical 2 finger thrust to their right eye at 12:00, hook inward and pull hand back to chest with fingers pointing up.[/SIZE][/FONT]

This is the set. If we look at the first few moves, 3,4,5,6, we see that the strikes are taught to these areas. Now, IMHO, it should be up to the teacher to tell the student, and for the student to eventually figure things out for themselves, that things don't have to be textbook. However, during the initial teaching, its taught as it is presented above, which does give the impression that a spearhand is a possible option to the ribs.

 

[Danjo]

One of my old Masters taught me his version of the finger set. It was far less complicated however:

 

[yorkshirelad]

I always conidered the finger set a complete waste of time. You don't really need a 'set' to teach a student how to poke an assailants eyes out. You don't even need it to teach range. Finger set two is useful in the sense that it teaches finger techniques in conjunction with stances. It looks pretty, but on the whole, it's useless.

Block set, stance sets 1 and 2, elbow set 1 and 2 and the kicking set are all useful and condusive to both the art of Kenpo and self defense within the system.

 

[Carol]

Ugh...I remember when my class did finger set. *shudder* I was having a rotten day and got to class just wanting to hit something (or someone) and instead of breaking out the kickshields we stood around tracing these little patterns in the air. Agonizing and frustrating.

Long form 2 incorporates a finger strike to the solar plexus. There are moves like that in Kenpo but they aren't used very often.

Personally though, its not my thing. I depend heavily on my ability to type...I really have no interest in hand conditioning or fingertip strikes.

 

[KenpoDave]

I am not sure that finger conditioning makes the fingers "tougher." Personally, I have always done finger conditioning for the purpose of learning how to form the various strikes, to learn to create enough tension in my hand to make the strikes available and useful, and getting feedback on how hard I can hit what type of surface without damaging my fingers.

I also think that if you don't understand the strikes and leave them undeveloped, there will be techniques and targeting that is unavailable to you.

I feel the same way about the makiwara and knuckle pushups. I see them as exercsies that teach one how to punch with proper alignment and tension in the hand and wrists, not to callous the knuckles, or to toughen the hands.

That said, I don't know Finger Set.

 

[Danjo]

I feel the same way about the makiwara and knuckle pushups. I see them as exercsies that teach one how to punch with proper alignment and tension in the hand and wrists, not to callous the knuckles, or to toughen the hands.

That said, I don't know Finger Set.

Knuckle push-ups do two things. How important they are to you is a different story. First, they condition the hand and knuckles for striking. If you've ever been hit by a conditioned hand versus a non-conditioned hand, it's like the difference between being hit by a rubber mallet versus a ballpene hammer. The arm doing the hammering might be just as strong, but the instrument that is being used makes a lot of difference to the amount of damage being done. The big question here is "How much conditioning do I need?" Many Chinese practitioners use leather bags for developing their hands, where the Okinawans used the Makiwara. Some even hit rocks (Higaonna) and steel etc. (Tak Kubota). Even modern punching bags will condition one's hand for harder striking.

The second thing knuckle pushups do is strengthen the wrists for punching. One need not even do this on a hard surface to get the benefit from this one. You can do knuckle pushups on a cushion or mat and still strengthen the wrists so that they won't buckle when you hit the target.

I have done them for many many years and have no adverse affects from them.

 

[KenpoDave]

Knuckle push-ups do two things. How important they are to you is a different story. First, they condition the hand and knuckles for striking. If you've ever been hit by a conditioned hand versus a non-conditioned hand, it's like the difference between being hit by a rubber mallet versus a ballpene hammer.

I think that the conditioning benefit derived from the knuckle pushups has more to do with learning how to create tension and alignment. I have done them for nearly 25 years now, and don't notice a "toughening" benefit. Perhaps I have derived all of that benefit I am going to get. I did get callouses when I first started doing them.

The second thing knuckle pushups do is strengthen the wrists for punching. One need not even do this on a hard surface to get the benefit from this one. You can do knuckle pushups on a cushion or mat and still strengthen the wrists so that they won't buckle when you hit the target.

I have done them for many many years and have no adverse affects from them.

Agreed.

 

[Danjo]

I think that the conditioning benefit derived from the knuckle pushups has more to do with learning how to create tension and alignment. I have done them for nearly 25 years now, and don't notice a "toughening" benefit. Perhaps I have derived all of that benefit I am going to get. I did get callouses when I first started doing them.

It won't condition your hands like a Makiwara will, but how much do you really need?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Which strikes seem a waste of time? We are often in a position to end the fight, long before punches start flying, with a few surgical strikes to soft targets. Finger tip strikes to the eyes ears and throaght do cause a reaction. Students need to work on striking and returning along the center anyway (God knows it all goes to hell when sparring). You can practice the set stationary once for each principle of motion, combine in with stance set or any other set, and use the the set as an excuse to strengthen and and refine your hands. A strong grip and fingers are a valuable tool. This set is only a waste of time if you let someone put your attitude there. But by all means drop it and any other technique they tell you is a waste of time too. They know the true secret stuff. Follow.....
Sean

 

[HKphooey]

Much of what has been said so far, can be said about many components of kenpo (and many other arts).

Like learning the alphabet, words and sentences in English; we learn a lot that we will never use, but we are told we need to learn it. And of course, we follow.

 

[Danjo]

Much of what has been said so far, can be said about many components of kenpo (and many other arts).

Like learning the alphabet, words and sentences in English; we learn a lot that we will never use, but we are told we need to learn it. And of course, we follow.

Most things in the martial arts have some function. The original function may be lost over time if there was a breakdown in communication from instructor to student and thus one is left to try to figure out what the technique was intended for in the first place. When that happens, the new explanations are often unsatisfying or just plain wrong. For instance, I remember in Shotokan using the "draw hand" on every punch or strike and thinking "No one really punches this way". It seems that my instructor had no idea why we used the draw hand either and just told us that that was how it was done. It wasn't until many years later that it was explained that it was really a grab and unbalancing move to pull an opponent into one's punch etc. (at least that's the one I've heard that makes the most sense). Not sure about the "Finger Set" though. Was this invented by Parker or someone else?

 

[MJS]

Most things in the martial arts have some function. The original function may be lost over time if there was a breakdown in communication from instructor to student and thus one is left to try to figure out what the technique was intended for in the first place. When that happens, the new explanations are often unsatisfying or just plain wrong. For instance, I remember in Shotokan using the "draw hand" on every punch or strike and thinking "No one really punches this way". It seems that my instructor had no idea why we used the draw hand either and just told us that that was how it was done. It wasn't until many years later that it was explained that it was really a grab and unbalancing move to pull an opponent into one's punch etc. (at least that's the one I've heard that makes the most sense). Not sure about the "Finger Set" though. Was this invented by Parker or someone else?

Couldn't agree more with this post! Very well said! :supcool: I too, was on the receiving end of the "Because this is the way its done." speech many years ago. Fortunately, that changed as time went on and instructors changed. I fully understand if someone was to tell me that I needed to learn something, or to do something a particular way, etc., but I also feel that a reason should be given. "Because this is the way its done", or "Just do this and don't ask why" to me, are not acceptable things.

Who created Finger Set? No idea. Of course, in many cases, things change with the times, often not for the better either, so I'm wondering....was there another version of the set? I just wonder, because to me, it doesnt make any sense to hit hard targets with your hand formed in such a way, that it may cause serious injury. If I'm going to hit someone in the ribs, sternum, etc, I'm certainly not using a spear hand. A punch or elbow...sure.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think that sometimes people fall into the trap of believing that because something has no value for them (or that they are simply unable to see value in it) that it is truly devoid of value.

There are as many approaches to kenpo and reasons for training as there are kenpoists. What may be a valuable tool for some, is viewed as worthless to others.

Do what's right for you and don't worry about what the other guy is doing.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Yeah, I dunno guys. I been lurking on this thread, waiting for someone to get to principles of enunciation and diction as related to vocabulary (from Wikipedia -- "the art of speaking clearly so that each word is clearly heard and understood to its fullest complexity and extremity"). But that just takes us back to "how", not "what". And as I've said before -- and one of the reasons I get such a bang out of Docs stuff -- is that kenpo really is two concurrantly running systems, each relying on the other for completion.

One system is the "what". Striking Set is a choreographed set of punches, backnuckles, hammerfists, etc. Anyone can get the "what" from a book, if they learned to read kenpoese. "How" is what makes Striking set interesting...the paths and angles for hooking, slicing, chopping, clipping and smothering blows; the path taken to and from the "what" while using your body thusly -- that's the how. Yet, 99.9% of the folks I watch do it don't apply these paths, and stop "at" their imagined targets, instead of passing "through" them, which brings the set to life in this study of paths and arcs.

Finger Set doesn't have anything inherently right or wrong with it. It's just a clump of sculptors clay. A "what". Turning that clay into something meaningful by paying attention to the details make it into a piece of art. The movement of the sculptors hands to define the arcs and curves of the paths, the dialogue between body and brain that inspects, discovers, then refines muscle firing sequences; the increasing awareness of application...

A student asked me the other day (already a black belt in another lineage, who works out with BB's from still other lineages) if the finger hooks at the end are applied from the front, the side, or from behind. I answered, "Yes." Then we looked at all of them, as well as their application in latching on to natural handles all over the body...windpipes, flesh of the armpits, hamstrings, love handles, achilles tendons, flesh inside the biceps, the biceps themselves, ear flaps, even fingers and toes going into small circle manipulations. And my favorite grisly application, inside one eye socket then out the other, pulling on the bridge of the nose from behind.

Mr. Parker used to say the body was full of handles to grab on to. This is one of the great hand formations for grabbing on to them. Shows up in kenpo a couple of times...anybody ever really isolate it for an afternoon of training and conditioning? What would happen if you did?

I've used the finger slice in a fight against a guy with a knife (only got the inward in; it was over before I could get the outward off)...parried the blade down (cutting myself with it...careful out there folks) while essentially lifting his cornea right off his eye. He didn't wanna fight anymore after that. Buddy of mine in high school -- a purple belt at Joe Dimmicks local Sam Pai Kenpo school -- "beat up"??? the high school football meathead thug by retreating away from his advances (crossovers away while in a reverse bow), while applying several underhand fingerwhips (shape of the crane) to the groin of his progressively shrinking attacker. Big man made small by moves from the Finger Set, in the space of seconds and a couple of strides.

I've used the overhand finger whip to the eye to put a guy down without injuring him -- it has two interpretations...one is to finger spear over the top of the eye, rotate your hand to grab hold of it, then pluck it out. The other is as a "limpy", whip-snapping the eye like you're trying to leave a welt with a locker rooom towel. It worked great. Hurts like heck, dropping the guy as both his hands fly to that eyeball and his eyes start watering & he starts panicking; but doesn't do anymore damage than can be fixed with a good nights sleep and a cold pack.

The 4-finger spear to the body -- I'm not fond of it either, but Mr. P. used it once to grab my lower ribs. Speared, pushed, and made a light fist with my ribs enveloped in his hand; I got immediately on my tippy toes, but couldn't get high enough to retreat away from the pressure on the stuff there (yes, it was the "now-infamous in my mind" chat about handles being all over the body). I don't think I ever got my fingers quite that strong, but have -- and still do -- use finger spears to the body in drills, sparring etc. Not to the floaters, cuz I don't like the possibility of rolling off the targets with a less-than-perfect angle of incidence. To the chest muscles and the crease between the pecs and the shoulder (people can't punch very well after that); to the medial boundary of the shoulder blade, and even to the stomach. But I've trained for it.

In Secrets of Chinese Karate, we're admonished to get a couple of buckets, and do hand conditioning on things like beans, rice, and sand. So I did. I also lived near the beach and went body-surfing daily, even in the winter storms. I would thrust my hands into the sand, then squeeze a handful of sand firmly to condition my fingers and my grip. I haven't done that for years, so I don't get the same effect in the strikes I used to; plus, now my finger joints feel sprained when I do it (they didn't when I did the contact resistance training regularly). So, there's always the issue of -- are you doing the weapons conditioning necessary to turn the move from being just a move, to a tempered weapon?

If not, that's fine. Just recognize that the inability to apply the technique is a personal limitation reflecting a choice to have your training time and efforts extend only to class time and class activities; more people are martial hobbyists than martial artists, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean the move is broken -- it means you don't choose to put in the time to make it applicable and dangerous.

If you're unable to see the combat applications of training Finger Set, it's either because you or your instructor never put the time in to actually study it, train it with intent, bothered to delve into it of your own accord, or you simply lack imagination. The set's fine; the knowledge to apply it is lacking. The will to find the knowledge may have never been.

And so, slowly...with a series of echoing whispers but no bang, kenpo dies.

 

[MJS]

I think that sometimes people fall into the trap of believing that because something has no value for them (or that they are simply unable to see value in it) that it is truly devoid of value.

There are as many approaches to kenpo and reasons for training as there are kenpoists. What may be a valuable tool for some, is viewed as worthless to others.

Do what's right for you and don't worry about what the other guy is doing.

Actually, I'm the opposite of what you describe above, due to the fact that during many a debate with the typical MMAist, you know, the ones who say that because their fanboy heros dont do A, B and C in 'the cage' that it must not work, I state to them that perhaps its because those folks do not train it.

So, back to Kenpo....yes, I'm sure there're things that we all do, that may not jive with the next person, and thats cool. I don't think that Mr. Parker wanted a bunch of robots doing Kenpo, but instead for each person to put their own special flavor into the art.

I think this thread may have gotten a bit off track, as I'm not questioning the set per se, but the applications. Its taught with spear hands to the ribs. I'm simply asking if this is a practical move, if this was the way it was originally taught, or if somewhere down the road, it was changed.