fighting bigger and stronger person or people

[Manny]

I am a big guy, at least for the average mexican citizen but.... lately I've been seen young men (even teens) that surpasses me in size and power, when I was a teen at 6 foot (70 kilograms) I was some of the tallest persons in high school but now for example 6' 3" tall is very comon and those kids some times are around 110-120 kilograms.

Well the other day I was thinking WHAT IF... I will have to engage with some kind of young man who no matter how hard I will hit, this guy could came to me and beat me to death, then I remeber that maybe WTF techs will not work but.... the old shool metods of destroying the basis of the treath can be very useful.

For example kicking low to the knees, or the blader or the b.....s, or maybe a karate chop to the neck or troat, or maybe a hammerfist to the temple or nose or what about a palm strike to the chin, or poke an eye... yes I know that maybe some of these techs are dirty but what the hell, if this techs save me from been brutally beaten I will use them in a blink of an eye.

Some times we encourage our students to fight fair (ala WTF for example) cause in the torunaments we can't kick low, and our studentes fight this same way on the streets were a bully can grab one legh and them slam the kid to the ground to then sit on him and pounded ous student viciusly.

With the popularity of UFC, MMA,etc,etc, the kids and the men likes to emulate those fighters and simply don't stop till the beaten guy is unconsius lying on the ground.

We must teach our students to fight dirty too.

Manny

 

[Cyriacus]

It isnt Dirty - Its Sensible.

You may just be misphrasing, and intend to refer to Dirty Sparring, which is understandable. But "Unfair" FIGHTING is Sensible. Not Dirty


On Topic, a Good Power Punch is a great thing to have foremost. Because if You are forced into a pressure situation with this big strong opponent, You may have to resort to just repeatedly drilling a fist in until You can switch to something else. Just dont get stuck thinking that the key to success is accuracy. The Bladder, for example, is too specific. The area just next to the Solar Plexus though, which happens to be the Liver, Lungs, Bladder, and so on? Go for that. Its less specific, and Youre more likely to succeed.
A Palm to the Chin and an Uppercut arent much different. Much like a Knife Hand to the Neck VS a Punch to the Neck. In other words, take into account panic. Because Fighting, especially under that kind of Pressure, is not Pre-Organised Drilling.

Lastly, those who gimmick MMA tend to fail miserably. Case in point: That Asian who was gang attacked recently.

In short, find what comes Naturally to YOU, then get really really good at it. Thatll take about a Month or three, but its worth it. Then Train. Alot. If Youre more likely to use Open Handed Strikes, Practice that. I prefer Forearm and Elbow Blocks instead of Palm Blocks. I know folks who feel exactly the opposite. We Train what We are going to use Instinctively. If Your Reaction under stress would be to Punch, and You try and Drill in using a Palm instead, itll be counterproductive. But that doesnt mean You dont Teach it both ways.

 

[Tez3]

I am a big guy, at least for the average mexican citizen but.... lately I've been seen young men (even teens) that surpasses me in size and power, when I was a teen at 6 foot (70 kilograms) I was some of the tallest persons in high school but now for example 6' 3" tall is very comon and those kids some times are around 110-120 kilograms.

Well the other day I was thinking WHAT IF... I will have to engage with some kind of young man who no matter how hard I will hit, this guy could came to me and beat me to death, then I remeber that maybe WTF techs will not work but.... the old shool metods of destroying the basis of the treath can be very useful.

For example kicking low to the knees, or the blader or the b.....s, or maybe a karate chop to the neck or troat, or maybe a hammerfist to the temple or nose or what about a palm strike to the chin, or poke an eye... yes I know that maybe some of these techs are dirty but what the hell, if this techs save me from been brutally beaten I will use them in a blink of an eye.

Some times we encourage our students to fight fair (ala WTF for example) cause in the torunaments we can't kick low, and our studentes fight this same way on the streets were a bully can grab one legh and them slam the kid to the ground to then sit on him and pounded ous student viciusly.

With the popularity of UFC, MMA,etc,etc, the kids and the men likes to emulate those fighters and simply don't stop till the beaten guy is unconsius lying on the ground.

We must teach our students to fight dirty too.

Manny

Actually KOs in MMA are far less common that people think. Fights are often stopped before anyone is KO'd. We don't fight 'dirty' in MMA, one of the complaints people have against MMA is that because of the rules it's actually not a good thing to practice for SD purposes. Often you will hear the phrase 'dirty boxing' that doesn't mean we fight dirty in the cage, more that we use clinches etc that aren't allowed in boxing. MMA is something different from having to defend yourself in the street where anything you can do to help yourself is not only permissable but desirable.

Boxing has been around forever, othe martial arts have been around a long time and there will always be someone who wants to emulate what they see on the screen and in rings and cages, it rarely ends well but I just want to reiterate we don't fight dirty in MMA!

 

[Jenna]

We must teach our students to fight dirty too.

Manny, why must you teach your students to do something that is not a part of your art? You are teaching them TKD no? In that case, can you not figure out instead how to make the TKD do what you want it to do with regard to fighting "thugs"?

Otherwise, if you are going to teach them other kinds of fighting, you might as well teach them firearm handling or vehicle maintenance. These things are not a part of TKD. Should you not stick with the TKD and adapt that instead of taking your students down other roads?

Of course if you are teaching a course which is specifically self-defence then that is another thing

I wish you well, Jenna

 

[Cyriacus]

Actually KOs in MMA are far less common that people think. Fights are often stopped before anyone is KO'd. We don't fight 'dirty' in MMA, one of the complaints people have against MMA is that because of the rules it's actually not a good thing to practice for SD purposes. Often you will hear the phrase 'dirty boxing' that doesn't mean we fight dirty in the cage, more that we use clinches etc that aren't allowed in boxing. MMA is something different from having to defend yourself in the street where anything you can do to help yourself is not only permissable but desirable.

Boxing has been around forever, othe martial arts have been around a long time and there will always be someone who wants to emulate what they see on the screen and in rings and cages, it rarely ends well but I just want to reiterate we don't fight dirty in MMA!

Absolutely. Even Dirty Boxing is used too losely these days.
For example: I Blocked a Punch from the Inside, pushed the Arm down, Blocked a follow up Punch with My other Hand to His other Hand, and used the First Hand I used that pushed the Arm down to do a Close Range Hook. Its Dirty in both Fairness and Infighting Definitions, and it resembled a bit of a Clinch. But if someone saw it, they wouldnt know it was a Boxing Hook, or that the Clinch wasnt taught by Boxing. What theyd see if they saw it on a video whilst trying to learn is, "Cool! I can grab someones wrist and punch them in the face!" When thats not what happened at all.
Would I be correct in saying that Knockdowns are common in MMA?
If so, might one say its often a result of Balance, rather than Impact Force? (Both Curiousity and Relevance fuel this question)
The point being, when the uninitiated see things in Boxing or MMA, they may think its Dirty, when it isnt. What I did wasnt Dirty - It just looked like it. He shouldnt have kept His arm out long enough for me to nudge it like that. I wasnt fighting Dirty, I just used a close range punch after pushing an arm.

But yeah, MMA is a means to an end. If You literally used MMA 'on tha street', itd work. So does windmilling ones arms. Using what MMA gives You, but just going with whatevers gonna work best and whatever pops into Your head? *nods

 

[Cyriacus]

Manny, why must you teach your students to do something that is not a part of your art? You are teaching them TKD no? In that case, can you not figure out instead how to make the TKD do what you want it to do with regard to fighting "thugs"?

Otherwise, if you are going to teach them other kinds of fighting, you might as well teach them firearm handling or vehicle maintenance. These things are not a part of TKD. Should you not stick with the TKD and adapt that instead of taking your students down other roads?

Of course if you are teaching a course which is specifically self-defence then that is another thing

I wish you well, Jenna

Theres a chance the TKD Hes Learnt hasnt given Him the means to do that. It may not have Trained it for whatever reason.
In which case, its excusable so long as it isnt passed as being TKD.
TKD has all these things - If its Taught. And unfortunately, this may be an example of Instructor>Doesnt teach something>Student becomes Instructor>Cant teach what He doesnt know.

 

[dancingalone]

Theres a chance the TKD Hes Learnt hasnt given Him the means to do that. It may not have Trained it for whatever reason.
In which case, its excusable so long as it isnt passed as being TKD.
TKD has all these things - If its Taught. And unfortunately, this may be an example of Instructor>Doesnt teach something>Student becomes Instructor>Cant teach what He doesnt know.

I am learning the KKW poomsae right now. Even Taegeuk Il-Jang can be interpreted to be full of 'dirty' shots if the practitioner chooses it: forearms to the neck, hammer-fists to the jaw, arm wraps, an inverted hip throw... Lots there for people to pick apart and work exhaustively given time, willing partners, and the desire to train in such a fashion.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I am learning the KKW poomsae right now. Even Taegeuk Il-Jang can be interpreted to be full of 'dirty' shots if the practitioner chooses it: forearms to the neck, hammer-fists to the jaw, arm wraps, an inverted hip throw... Lots there for people to pick apart and work exhaustively given time, willing partners, and the desire to train in such a fashion.

DA, where in Taegeuk Il-Jang do you see an inverted hip throw? I'm always looking for interpretations for the poomsae. I'd have to check but I don't believe the KKW textbook describes any move in Taegeuk Il-Jang as that.

 

[Cyriacus]

I am learning the KKW poomsae right now. Even Taegeuk Il-Jang can be interpreted to be full of 'dirty' shots if the practitioner chooses it: forearms to the neck, hammer-fists to the jaw, arm wraps, an inverted hip throw... Lots there for people to pick apart and work exhaustively given time, willing partners, and the desire to train in such a fashion.

Aye - And if You were never informed of that, they may as well just be weird motions.

 

[Tez3]

KO's aren't as common in MMA as people suppose, there's a few more ways to win so going for a KO isn't the priority, nice though it is if you get one. The other good thing of course in MMA is that there is no standing count so if you go down you are finished, no staggering around dazed trying to fight because you got up before the ref counted ten.

 

[dancingalone]

DA, where in Taegeuk Il-Jang do you see an inverted hip throw? I'm always looking for interpretations for the poomsae.

Bear with me as I do not have KKW terminology down yet.

Right after you have performed the down block and then reverse punch from the left front stance. The back leg comes forward to the right side and you turn right into a short right front stance and you execute an outside to inside block with the rear left arm.

Throw: You are facing a foe. You have acquired a strong position to him with your left hip braced behind & below his left hip. The down block and reverse punch in the form is interpreted as the movement of your arms to seize and control him as you move in the position (left arm wraps his right side, right arm seizing or pressing his left). Next, flip him over your hip and to the side for the fall - this is the shift to the right with the outside to inside block.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Interesting view, never saw that. No reason it wouldn't work either. Thanks

 

[dancingalone]

Aye - And if You were never informed of that, they may as well just be weird motions.

Absolutely. My first MA teacher taught me forms but we never did anything with them. At my young age then, I thought forms along with the classical techniques like sudo makki were utterly useless and I hated practicing them. I lived for sparring. Thankfully I 'got a clue' along the way as the saying goes.

 

[puunui]

I am learning the KKW poomsae right now.

Are you finding it hard to learn?

 

[puunui]

Bear with me as I do not have KKW terminology down yet.

Right after you have performed the down block and then reverse punch from the left front stance. The back leg comes forward to the right side and you turn right into a short right front stance and you execute an outside to inside block with the rear left arm.

The short right front stance is usually called a walking stance in english, which is not the official name, but people will know what you are talking about. The rest of your terms are in line with what others say. Some say high block, others up block, and so forth. The official kukkiwon english terminology is a little too wordy and complicated to learn, especially for children.

 

[dancingalone]

Are you finding it hard to learn?

I don't know. The movements are easy enough to remember. I'm actually just copying what I see from Youtube which everyone says is a horrendous way to learn anything, particularly martial arts.

I suppose I will get a lot of feedback from my friend and now I suppose teacher. He actually told me to learn them from a book or a video and he would give me corrections as needed.

 

[puunui]

I don't know. The movements are easy enough to remember. I'm actually just copying what I see from Youtube which everyone says is a horrendous way to learn anything, particularly martial arts. I suppose I will get a lot of feedback from my friend and now I suppose teacher. He actually told me to learn them from a book or a video and he would give me corrections as needed.

With your background, I don't think it is a bad way to learn. During my two year poomsae ordeal, I watched the kukkiwon video everyday prior to doing my poomsae workout. I knew the person demonstrating would be one of the course instructors, so I tried to copy his way as much as possible for the course. My suggestion is to get kukkiwon certified by your teacher and then attend a kukkiwon instructor course. I am sure that at some point one will be held in your area. Remember when you first started thinking about the commercial school idea, you were resistant and I think you told me you didn't want to learn the kukkiwon poomsae. But now here you are. Soon you'll be wearing v necks and sparring bouncing up and down with your arms dangling by your sides. Don't worry, Mabuni Sensei went through what you are going through, and he did fine. So will you. Let's talk fifteen years from now. Perhaps you can write your kukkiwon high dan thesis on how you have changed and grown during your kukki taekwondo journey. I have high hopes for you.

 

[Manny]

Manny, why must you teach your students to do something that is not a part of your art? You are teaching them TKD no? In that case, can you not figure out instead how to make the TKD do what you want it to do with regard to fighting "thugs"?

Otherwise, if you are going to teach them other kinds of fighting, you might as well teach them firearm handling or vehicle maintenance. These things are not a part of TKD. Should you not stick with the TKD and adapt that instead of taking your students down other roads?

Of course if you are teaching a course which is specifically self-defence then that is another thing

I wish you well, Jenna

Thank you for contributing, and yes you may have some good points here. What I am talking about is for example, yo show and teach roundhoue kick to you students aimed to the stomach for example, and keep doing kicking drills for this everitime and you told the kid that kick below the belt is not allowed for example, cause inside the dojang or inside tournaments this is not fair. The kid get's the idea that he must kick fair cause this is the way to go. Now put this kid under the pressure to fight a man or a very large boy where the roundhose kick can be anoying but not incapacitating, don't know if you get me.

That's why we must teach the kids or women or men to kick low to try to maximize the damage and stopt the treat. Picture this a 6 years old who is grabed for a person who wants to kidnap him, the bad guy carry the boy and this biy poke the assailants eye to been release by the half blind man.

But well I was talking about adoult people who may need to fight very large men, the kind of mugger who can't be down even with our most powerful fist for example.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

With your background, I don't think it is a bad way to learn. During my two year poomsae ordeal, I watched the kukkiwon video everyday prior to doing my poomsae workout. I knew the person demonstrating would be one of the course instructors, so I tried to copy his way as much as possible for the course. My suggestion is to get kukkiwon certified by your teacher and then attend a kukkiwon instructor course. I am sure that at some point one will be held in your area. Remember when you first started thinking about the commercial school idea, you were resistant and I think you told me you didn't want to learn the kukkiwon poomsae. But now here you are.

I do recall that conversation. I was arrogant and I apologize.

It is not that I necessarily wish personally to learn the poomsae now for myself, but as I now own a dojang that follows KKW guidelines, I should serve my new students and do so. Perhaps in time I will see the value of the poomsae and be able to impart it to others.

Soon you'll be wearing v necks and sparring bouncing up and down with your arms dangling by your sides. Don't worry, Mabuni Sensei went through what you are going through, and he did fine. So will you. Let's talk fifteen years from now. Perhaps you can write your kukkiwon high dan thesis on how you have changed and grown during your kukki taekwondo journey. I have high hopes for you.

Thank you. We don't agree on some things but I have never doubted your sincerity to build TKD the best way you know how.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Bear with me as I do not have KKW terminology down yet.

Right after you have performed the down block and then reverse punch from the left front stance. The back leg comes forward to the right side and you turn right into a short right front stance and you execute an outside to inside block with the rear left arm.

Throw: You are facing a foe. You have acquired a strong position to him with your left hip braced behind & below his left hip. The down block and reverse punch in the form is interpreted as the movement of your arms to seize and control him as you move in the position (left arm wraps his right side, right arm seizing or pressing his left). Next, flip him over your hip and to the side for the fall - this is the shift to the right with the outside to inside block.

I have been telling people this for years. I hold a 5th in both TKD and HKD and I find myself oftentimes saying to my HKD and Judo brethren (I hold rank in Judo too) that TKD and every martial art you can think of is fully complete and has--by literal survival necessity--all of the ranges of combat one can ever ask for. Whether we TRAIN them that way is a different matter, though. Just like my sig says...IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW, IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN.