Fight Quest-Krav Maga

[zen4me]

The fact that Doug was trying a toe hold while wearing 16 oz boxing gloves on a guy wearing shoes (which help prevent toe holds but make heel hooks easy) demonstrates his experience level in MMA.

Watching that portion of the episode, what I noticed was Doug continually taking heel kicks to the ribs while trying to get a toe hold. To me, that spoke volumes. He didn't adapt to the situation, which is something Krav preaches (same situation in the Palm Grove, he continually wanted to go to ground instead of using the "weapons" freely available in the environment) and why Avivit continually yelled out he was dead.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

Best episode yet and that's saying alot because I train with one of Leo Gage's students, but the Krav episode was well put together.

I like how they went to 2 hardcore schools, instead of some stripKM for yuppies.

I like Krav, alot of simularites to CQC and the street side of the Jujutsu I study.

I also liked how millions of people could see an example of MMA training falling apart in a combative context. Sure Fedor would have done better,but the average martial artist is an average person.
(Not a slam on the sport, i love it but like anything it has it's limitations that many who champion ignore or make excusses for)

The Kajakenbo episode looks cool.
Not a bad show yet, allthough I have to say the BJJ was my least favorite for a bunch of reasons.

 

[Doc_Jude]

...The fact that Doug was trying a toe hold while wearing 16 oz boxing gloves on a guy wearing shoes (which help prevent toe holds but make heel hooks easy) demonstrates his experience level in MMA...

I thought that it was funny he was trying for a submission hold while getting booted in the head.

 

[SilatFan]

First I need to say again that I loved the show and this episode. Second, this has been a very cool thread and I don’t want to seem like im knocking KM or to actually knock KM.

That said I really like the points Brian, akatrk and Hand Sword have made as well as others.

Akatrk,

I cant judge what someone else is/has gone through till Ive walked a mile in their shoes. I definitely cant judge what your partner goes through (though im a LEO as well). But, in my personal experience, whenever I felt the need to prove myself to someone else it usually came from MY own insecurities about what others thought of me and whether they respected me or not. Ive found that women that need to “act” tough are the same as men that need to “act” tough. And some times that acting actually escalates a situation into physical violence when it might have been avoided. Im not saying your partner is like that but Avivit definitely struck me like that (though I bet she’d strike me any way she could ).

What impressed me about Jim and Doug’s performances was that neither of them are instructors in anything (MMA or otherwise) but held their own against KM instructors and IDF instructors. What especially impressed me was Doug. He faced KM instructors and advanced practitioners while being extremely tired because he was the guy in the center while they rotated in and out, playing Krav Magas ‘game’, all while being the smaller fighter with little actual MA credentials. In other words, he was smaller, more fatigued and less accomplished in MMA/BJJ then the guys he faced were in KM and he still did well. That’s just impressive.

I want to be careful on how I phrase some of this because Im not trying to make this a “this art is better than that art” type of garbage thread. I think we all understand the limits of the different arts more than we do their potential. KM, BJJ, MMA and all the other arts have their value and im just making a couple of observations about the show. Plus I dont want Avivit to come after me.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

If your teaching combatives in a nation that has been at war since 47, you better be tough.

And I would say that they also hold back alittle on Doug and Jimmie.

 

[donald]

I have to say that I too enjoyed this episode for the most part. I just thought that they should not have continued attacking Jim's leg when he was obviously hurt. To say it was a realism excercise does not in my opinion wash because they were supposedly show casing their art not training him for the streets in 5 days time. I also thought that the drill in the palm grove with Doug was kinda lame. When the instructor ran through in her demo to Doug. Her students came at her one(intimidated?) at a time, and barely came at her. Doug was attacked hard in front, and by one or more in the rear. When assessing how he did they failed to note the differences, and just remarked on their perception of his shortcomings. I felt like they may have been trying to see how soft these 2 "Americans" were. I think that Doug, and Jim both demonstrated deep intestinal fortitude in this episode. Neither one cried foul at any point, and remained smiling for the camera. Something I am not sure I would have been able to do. I do have one thought regarding Jim, and the leg kicks. Why did'nt he close the gap, and choke off their kicking abilities? Maybe just trying to play their game?
1stJohn1:9

 

[donald]

Speaking of Krav Maga I was watching a re-run of Law and Order today. They said one of the characters in the episode trained in Krav Maga, and in explaining what it was said it was like J-U-D-O!!! Here I thought the U.S. had come so far in its understanding of m.a.'s, and its various systems. Alas one of the producers just could'nt bring themself to sit down and Google Krav Maga for at least a hint a kinda sorta credibility. Oh well back to the karahtay mats, so I can work on my ju-jitty skills. Sooo hard gettin deadly, soo hard...

1stJohn1:9

 

[HKphooey]

One of the best episodes. Especially the elbow he received!!!!!!

 

[SilatFan]

If your teaching combatives in a nation that has been at war since 47, you better be tough.

I agree. But the IDF guys were tough (as well as calm and laid back).

In what way do you feel that they held back a little on Doug and Jimmie?

Donald,
Great points and I do think that Jim was just trying to play their game. Which is smart if your trying to learn something new as opposed to just trying to win or show off.

 

[arnisador]

Weaponology also had a segment on KM within one of its recent shows:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=936668#post936668

 

[Hand Sword]

Another factor could be that American artists have some sort of reputation. On a few of the shows, I've heard a few comments on the idea like "a typical American", or something to that effect. Maybe, she elbowed him to "get his attention" because she felt he was not showing a serious mindset at that moment. I'm also sure that these guys, though entertaining to us, are seen with contempt by those they are visiting. Kind of like rich, spoiled, guests here to play around for 5 days.

 

[Topeng]

I caught the episode but just in clips so maybe I missed it but: The only technique I saw taught was with the assualt rifle. The rest of it looked like brawling. Did I miss where techniques were taught? What I was looking forward to was seeing some signature moves that set Krav Maga apart from other MA's. I hit up a krav maga forum and the concensus there found the episode to be a disappointment.
As for Avivit, did you know she is also a member of the Israeli Olympic Judo team? I must have also missed where she threw Doug across the room after that elbow.

 

[LilDaemon]

Another factor could be that American artists have some sort of reputation. On a few of the shows, I've heard a few comments on the idea like "a typical American", or something to that effect. Maybe, she elbowed him to "get his attention" because she felt he was not showing a serious mindset at that moment. I'm also sure that these guys, though entertaining to us, are seen with contempt by those they are visiting. Kind of like rich, spoiled, guests here to play around for 5 days.

I think that's exactly why she did it. It wasn't to bully, or overexcitement. Do you really think that someone who is that high up and who has trained that hard would really lose self-control with a bunch of cameras around? ESPECIALLY in front of her students? Doubtful.

I believe that it was explained in the episode that one learns much faster dealing with the real thing than a fake elbow throw. He moved right quick after that, didn't he? That was the point. It was mentioned she does the same thing with the rest of her students. She doesn't pull any punches, and they learn quicker and better for it.

I"m not advocating beating the crap out of students every time a new move is learned, but I can see where what she did could be useful. Hey, the Palestinian solder isn't gonna hold back either. KM students, especially those in the IDF, don't have the luxury of spending years learning the art, although the path can and should be followed for the rest of their life. They have a necessity of learning KM so they can effectively use it relatively soon to defend themselves.

I think the palm grove training was great, especially the part when she's like " you're DEAD, Doug!" It's relatively true that when you're in a street fight scenario, the last thing you want to do is go to the ground. It's harder to get up off that ground and get out of the situation when all of a sudden there's more than one opponent (Pal. forces, drunken buddies, gang fight) that's now able to get at you because you're now effectively pinned on the ground. It's not about winning a match, it's about SURVIVAL.

 

[SilatFan]

It wasn't to bully, or overexcitement. Do you really think that someone who is that high up and who has trained that hard would really lose self-control with a bunch of cameras around? ESPECIALLY in front of her students? ...

Yes.

ESPECIALLY in front of her students? ...

With some instructors they are especially worse when in front of THIER students.


Im sure she is a fine person. But this has kinda taken a life of its own. I don't blame the "victim/student" (doug) because of his nationality or because she "has" to be like that. Again, the IDF guys were very tough in practice but calm, civil and respectful when interacting otherwise. IMO that was because they knew what they could do and were not preoccupied with what Jim thought of them or of what Jim thought they could do.

I've just seen enough people (instructors and non alike) that have to posture and take - what im calling a cheap shot - because of THEIR insecurities. She seemed to be the same. And the student suffers from this and unfortunately they often copy this same behavior. But hey, what do I know? Its just an opinion (and we all know that line).

 

[zilverkakashi]

The series is awesome! But wow I seem to have a different take on this episode.

I guess its all in the eye of the beholder. When I saw Doug, who has little actual MMA training experience, take down KM practitioners regularly when he was tired or at a loss for what to do it made me think that those KM practitioners needed to work on their takedown defense. Doug is 5’6” and 145 lbs and just got a blue belt in BJJ (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/fight-quest/bios/doug.html). The fact that Doug was trying a toe hold while wearing 16 oz boxing gloves on a guy wearing shoes (which help prevent toe holds but make heel hooks easy) demonstrates his experience level in MMA. That is not an indictment on him as a person or martial artist. He’s doing what he wants, improving daily, travelling the world and having experiences most MArtists can only dream about. IMO he did great but many of the KM guys did not. He was the visitor. He was the one getting a stare down for a reception. He was the one in the center of the drill where the KM practitioners constantly rotated in fresh, experienced guys and he still held his own with what little MMA training he has. If anything it demonstrated – to me – how effective MMA training could be. With little experience, size and fatigued he played their game and still held his own. But I think I know what you guys mean. I understand that going to the ground in a number of self defense type situations could be a mistake but I also see how effective grappling/MMA is when a small, tired, low ranked guy in BJJ/MMA can take experienced, bigger, fresher, accomplished KM guys down consistently as a very powerful statement as well.


I also thought that Avivit elbowing Doug in the mouth while he was just standing there was lame. It was a cheap shot. Instructors regularly throw mock strikes - that do not land - at students to show some aspect of a technique while the student just stands there. It certainly does not demonstrate that she could do that to him if they were fighting. If a guy did that you’d crack him one. Did you notice how clam and laid back the IDF guys were while how uptight and tense Avivit was. That is insecurity. Calm and decent behavior in regular human interaction and intense and aggressive behavior in “sparring” is what I look for in an instructor. Not someone who is aggressive and tense while talking to me but never actually spars or “trades” hits with me. To me that type of behavior speaks volumes about the person and their confidence and skill levels. Oh well, just my 2 cents.

I definitely got your point. However most of us missed something here about krav.. I know Doug and Jim could of course hold their own because they are fighters and MA's
(check their backgrounds as well). Yes it's true that Doug could not pull off a good ground lock because of the gloves and Jimmy might be holding back a little as well and tried to play their game but those KM people held back too.. yes believe it even if they were harsh and intense they were holding back. why? simple.. krav maga has no rules. if they fought even 1 KM guy they would be in trouble. Because Krav Maga has no rules. Doug and Jim has all the chance to go all out because they were trained for different arts with rules and even if they do all their techs KM people won't complain. But that moment where Doug was trying to get a foot lock but was not able to.. imagine if there were no gloves, no pads, no groin cups, no mouth piece... if Doug will always go ground his groin, eyes, neck etc will be in trouble which can also mean that before he can slam a KM guy to the ground his vulnerable parts would've been destroyed first.. Krav Maga always emphasizes to incapacitate an opponent as fast as he can in REAL LIFE situations.. It would also be lame if you will say a KM guy will fight an MMA guy in the ring. It would be fine if there will be no rules but put rules and it's like you're already taking a KM person in a handicap match. Because they train not to win but to survive in real life situations...
and lastly, yes it's not about the fighting style it's about the person who uses it... i respect every other fighting style or martial art

 

[Old Judoka]

The series is awesome! But wow I seem to have a different take on this episode.

I guess its all in the eye of the beholder. When I saw Doug, who has little actual MMA training experience, take down KM practitioners regularly when he was tired or at a loss for what to do it made me think that those KM practitioners needed to work on their takedown defense. Doug is 5’6” and 145 lbs and just got a blue belt in BJJ (http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/fight-quest/bios/doug.html). The fact that Doug was trying a toe hold while wearing 16 oz boxing gloves on a guy wearing shoes (which help prevent toe holds but make heel hooks easy) demonstrates his experience level in MMA. That is not an indictment on him as a person or martial artist. He’s doing what he wants, improving daily, travelling the world and having experiences most MArtists can only dream about. IMO he did great but many of the KM guys did not. He was the visitor. He was the one getting a stare down for a reception. He was the one in the center of the drill where the KM practitioners constantly rotated in fresh, experienced guys and he still held his own with what little MMA training he has. If anything it demonstrated – to me – how effective MMA training could be. With little experience, size and fatigued he played their game and still held his own. But I think I know what you guys mean. I understand that going to the ground in a number of self defense type situations could be a mistake but I also see how effective grappling/MMA is when a small, tired, low ranked guy in BJJ/MMA can take experienced, bigger, fresher, accomplished KM guys down consistently as a very powerful statement as well.


I also thought that Avivit elbowing Doug in the mouth while he was just standing there was lame. It was a cheap shot. Instructors regularly throw mock strikes - that do not land - at students to show some aspect of a technique while the student just stands there. It certainly does not demonstrate that she could do that to him if they were fighting. If a guy did that you’d crack him one. Did you notice how clam and laid back the IDF guys were while how uptight and tense Avivit was. That is insecurity. Calm and decent behavior in regular human interaction and intense and aggressive behavior in “sparring” is what I look for in an instructor. Not someone who is aggressive and tense while talking to me but never actually spars or “trades” hits with me. To me that type of behavior speaks volumes about the person and their confidence and skill levels. Oh well, just my 2 cents.

I respect your opinion, but you have to remember, it's Israel and she is an Israeli cop. Bad sh:t goes down in Israel all the time and those people have reason to be tense and uptight all the time. Even though we are starting to get a little terrorism here, it's nothing compared to what goes on day-to-day there.

 

[drop bear]

Watching that portion of the episode, what I noticed was Doug continually taking heel kicks to the ribs while trying to get a toe hold. To me, that spoke volumes. He didn't adapt to the situation, which is something Krav preaches (same situation in the Palm Grove, he continually wanted to go to ground instead of using the "weapons" freely available in the environment) and why Avivit continually yelled out he was dead.

Not a fair test. If I jump someone with five trained guys, krav skills won't keep them alive either.

There are small variables you could consider. But beating multiple guys is not one of them.

Yeah OK. 2008 but still this is a current theme as well.

 

[drop bear]

I respect your opinion, but you have to remember, it's Israel and she is an Israeli cop. Bad sh:t goes down in Israel all the time and those people have reason to be tense and uptight all the time. Even though we are starting to get a little terrorism here, it's nothing compared to what goes on day-to-day there.

I know guys who are neither tense or uptight and will happily unscrew your head if you want to take it to that level.

I sparred a guy recently who is a legitimate bad ***. But surprisingly he could also go easy on me because I was hopelessly outclassed and I did not try to take it to him.

OK.found the clip.

That was unnecessary.