Female? Back of the bus please.

[Xue Sheng]

Not heard of that, but really not that different from some of the things that happen over hear. The red paint at people wearing fur springs to mind. Or the anti-abortion crowd, there was even a group protesting at a military funeral not too long ago.

Fundamentalists can be a pain on every continent...



Work is not allowed on the Sabbath, that I got. But I am surprised throwing things at cars doesn't fall into that category. I am also surprised they car, my understanding was that while they are not allowed to do work, or to have someone do work for them, someone else doing so in a way that doesn't effect them is perfectly fine.

Judaism doesn't have that "convert everyone" mentality that Christianity or Islam has. So non-jews not observing the rules really shouldn't be a problem?

My mistake, I had to go double check it is not orthodox it is Hasidic Judaism and in that section of Jerusalem form Sundown Friday to sundown on (I am not sure) Saturday or Sunday, no driving or other mechanical things. And at that time when people were driving through the Hasidic section they were lining the streets and trying to stop traffic and throwing insults and objects at those that drove through. My apologies but I am not up on the various types of Judaism.

It was not a convert everyone it was a don't come here and offend us by going against our way kind of thing

 

[Kacey]

My mistake, I had to go double check it is not orthodox it is Hasidic Judaism and in that section of Jerusalem form Sundown Friday to sundown on (I am not sure) Saturday or Sunday, no driving or other mechanical things. And at that time when people were driving through the Hasidic section they were lining the streets and trying to stop traffic and throwing insults and objects at those that drove through. My apologies but I am not up on the various types of Judaism.

It was not a convert everyone it was a don't come here and offend us by going against our way kind of thing

Hasidism is an ultra Orthodox sect of Judaism that originated in Eastern Europe. Like other highly observant Jews, the Hasidim follow the laws in Leviticus - including on banning 39 forms of work on the Sabbath. Anything electrical is included in that ban, as 2 of the banned forms of work are lighting and putting out fires; as the use of electricity spread, it was determined that anything with a spark (of any size), no matter the ease of use, fell under the guidelines for fire.

Because of Jewish belief and tradition, the Sabbath is from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday (in Genesis, it states "and there was evening and morning, the first day - thus, days are measured from sundown to sundown); because Israel is a Jewish nation, it shuts down for the Jewish Sabbath the way other countries shut down for the Christian Sabbath (or used to - remember blue laws?). The shift from sundown to midnight occurred in Europe with the advent of clocks - until then, the Christian churches also measured "days" from sundown to sundown; that's why major holidays have "eves" - Christmas Eve, for example - because they started at sundown. The Christian churches also used to follow many of the same rules for not working on the Sabbath.

Should the Hasidim have thrown things at people who drove through their area during the Sabbath? No... but neither should people have disturbed the peace of their day of worship if other alternatives existed. I can't say if they did or not. All parties in this case were in error, I believe.

 

[grydth]

What goes on in Israel is their own affair. I happen to generally like the country, and far prefer Israel to the anti-semitics who'd like to destroy it. I suspect outside criticism is viewed by them much as I view posts by congenital USA haters from outside: who cares?

This is primarily a martial arts forum, not an international affairs market. I bring this up because I strongly feel one answer to violence against women is martial arts training.... not only fighting skills, but the assurance that "I don't need to take that."

My daughter was putting up with a larger and senior male student taking cheap shots in sparring, had enough, and laid him out with a left jab and right hook punch. I told her in no uncertain terms that if I ever saw her do that again, I was going to pull her off the mat and take her shopping at Hollisters.

There are efficent answers to those who spit on women (or returning soldiers). Some of these are called jabs, uppercuts, back fists....when the spitters find themselves next spitting blood and teeth, the assaults generally stop. When other women, and men, stand up for the woman, then make that "almost always".

 

[Tez3]

I will reiterate, most forms of Judaism I am familiar with are not patriarchal but matriarchal, As i've already explained, different places have different experiences.
Empty Hands you have said Orthodox Jews do this and that, they don't, Hasidic Jews, the 'ultra orthodox' as you know them are responsible. We are two different things, therefore you were aiming your comments on the way they behave at me, an Orthodox Jew. I still think you need to know the difference between us all before you can start directing comments at us. My Orthodoxy is probobaly very different for example from what Kasey knows as Orthodoxy, we have the same beilefs of course but the practice of them and of how our societies are formed are very different.
The Hasids can also be different from each other depending on where they originally come from. They don't all agree with each other either so you would actually need to know which group is the one saying women can't be educated etc.
This is a hugely deep and complicated subject far more than I think people realise and I apoligise that iI cannot do justice to it in a few posts.
There is a Jewish joke whch isn't very funny but does explain a lot.
"Two Jews were shipwrecked on a desert island, they managed to survive and live quite a good life for a few years, being religious they'd built a synagogue as well as shelter for themsleves however when they were at last rescued it was noticed that they actually had two synagogues. When asked why one of the Jews answered, well I didn't like the way things were done in that one so I built my own to go to.

 

[CanuckMA]

And it's a small subset of Ultra-Orthodox that do those boneheaded things. Generally young yeshiva students. Not very different from any other 18-19 year olds. I don't condone what they do, but I do understand it. Somebody brought up tha throwing things at cars. It's not like they line up random streets in Jerusalem and pelt cars. They have been known to do it in Mea Sharim, an Ultra-Orthodox neighbourghood of Jerusalem. Drivers can go around it. Because the entire neighbourhood is Ultra-Orthodox, they are often outside walking and kids playing in the streets in Shabbat. Cars driving through are annoying and also a safety concern.

Anz Tez3 is right. Most of Judaism is matriarchal in practice. While some of the Laws mention obligations on men, it's the women who rule the house. And Judaism is very much a home focused religion. We don't need a Rabbi to conduct services, and sve for a few prayers, most of our service can be done alone. In a Jewish home, what the wife does and says and the final word.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hasidism is an ultra Orthodox sect of Judaism that originated in Eastern Europe. Like other highly observant Jews, the Hasidim follow the laws in Leviticus - including on banning 39 forms of work on the Sabbath. Anything electrical is included in that ban, as 2 of the banned forms of work are lighting and putting out fires; as the use of electricity spread, it was determined that anything with a spark (of any size), no matter the ease of use, fell under the guidelines for fire.

Because of Jewish belief and tradition, the Sabbath is from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday (in Genesis, it states "and there was evening and morning, the first day - thus, days are measured from sundown to sundown); because Israel is a Jewish nation, it shuts down for the Jewish Sabbath the way other countries shut down for the Christian Sabbath (or used to - remember blue laws?). The shift from sundown to midnight occurred in Europe with the advent of clocks - until then, the Christian churches also measured "days" from sundown to sundown; that's why major holidays have "eves" - Christmas Eve, for example - because they started at sundown. The Christian churches also used to follow many of the same rules for not working on the Sabbath.

Should the Hasidim have thrown things at people who drove through their area during the Sabbath? No... but neither should people have disturbed the peace of their day of worship if other alternatives existed. I can't say if they did or not. All parties in this case were in error, I believe.

Thank You, I believe it was a rather main road in the city and I do know they had dispatched police to try and keep things calm but I am not sure if there was an alternate route or not.

 

[Tez3]

Sometimes we let the men have the last word....usually "yes dear"!

I wouldn't want to be a Chasidic Jew but I have a soft spot for them. In perhaps martial arts terms they are the old school Japanese masters struggling against modern times and trying to keep the medieval ways, the old ways alive, where everyone knew where they stood in life. They have known so much suffering over the centuries they have turned inward and insular.Their Rabbis pulled the remnants of their people out of the ashes of post war Europe, mending the people and bringing them back to life. Believe it or not they are actually gentle and very decent people, as Canuck says though the young, perhaps as they should be, are hot headed and full of passion. For many the way they go about expressing that is wrong but their motives are at least better than many of the youths we find in British streets, drunk out of their minds, having sex on the street,vandalising anything in sight, throwing up and fighting.
I'm not apologising for them, I don't think they need people to do that for them but I would like people to understand where they come from.

 

[aedrasteia]

Thanks to all for a thought provoking discussion.

Here is some information that I believe is important. My perspective is based in part, on the public status of bus transportation and the 'voluntary' nature of seating on these buses.

I will and have defended those in my community who are subjected to ridicule or harassment in public - based in religious bias or any other. I believe and act on my sense that all people in the public domain must not be subject to the coercion or use of force by any other person (a woman must not be forced to remove or add a veil, for example nor a man wearing religious clothing, same for verbal harassment). On a public conveyance, seating is voluntary. If seating choices are not voluntary then they are governed by the preferences of one group. Exceptions regarding seating (such as disabled, elderly) are governed by publicly acceptable regulations applicable to all regardless of race, ethnicity etc ). Please see below. i have added sources and links. If there is a problem accessing these please PM me and I will do all i can to help.

Bus services www.cafetorah.com/gallery/index.php?cat=7
Israel agency of media, news and tourism

Israel has an extremely developed bus route system, as buses are the country's main form of public transportation. The Egged Bus Cooperative is Israel's largest bus company (and the second largest in the world), and operates routes throughout the entire country. In each major city or region, there is also a local bus company, the largest being the Dan Bus Company, operating routes in Gush Dan. Kavim is the next largest.



www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/source/Economy/transport.html
Take the Bus
When Israelis aren't driving, their preferred mode of transportation is the bus. Even though it serves a population of just over six million people, Egged Israel Transport Cooperative Society Ltd. is the second-largest bus operator in the world, after London Transport. Organized as a cooperative, Egged has 3,250 members and 4,550 salaried employees, operating 4,000 buses on thousands of scheduled routes as well as special trips. Egged carries around one million passengers every day.

The first public buses appeared in the country after the First World War, fashioned from converted trucks. Bus drivers gradually united into cooperatives that reflected their social ideals of freedom, independence, productive labor, mutual aid and equality. Each member had an equal standing and say in management. Egged itself was founded in 1933 in a merger of four smaller bus cooperatives. Its name, which means "linked together," was proposed by the national poet Hayim Nahman Bialik, and was intended to express the close bond between the cooperative's members.

Today, Egged provides 70 pecent of Israel's public transport; the Dan cooperative, operating in the greater Tel Aviv area, supplies most of the balance. Egged works on the basis of a government license ( known as a tender-addition by poster ) renewed automatically every year, with the government setting fares and conditions. The cooperative's annual turnover is about $600 million.

Egged is facing a number of challenges as public demand and transportation policy change. Since 1991, the number of bus travelers has fallen by two percent, as more commuters take to their cars. Meanwhile, the government has begun to chip away at Egged's monopoly. In 1999 it decided to open eight percent of Egged's routes to competition among private operators, awarded through tenders. An additional 25 percent of Egged's lines will be tendered by 2009. The government also wants to privatize Egged by floating shares and/or selling a stake to investors. Source: Israeli Foreign Ministry


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm
Israel's 'modesty buses' draw fire by Katya Adler BBC News, Jerusalem
The other day I was waiting for a bus in downtown Jerusalem. I was in the bustling orthodox Jewish neighbourhood of Mea Sharim and the bus stop was extremely crowded.
When the Number 40 bus arrived, the most curious thing happened. Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus.
Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back. When on the bus, I tried to buck the system, moving my way towards the driver but was pushed back towards the other women.

These are what orthodox Jews call "modesty buses". The separation system operates on 30 public bus routes across Israel. The authorities here say the arrangement is voluntary, but in practice, as I found out, there is not much choice involved.

Naomi Ragen is one of a group of women now taking the separation bus system to court. She is an orthodox Jew herself. "I wasn't trying to start a revolution, all I wanted to do was get home," she tells me. "I was in downtown Jerusalem and I saw a bus going straight to my neighbourhood and I got on and sat down, in a single seat behind the driver.

"It was a completely empty bus, and all of a sudden, some men started getting on, ultra-orthodox men. They told me I was not allowed to sit there, I had to go to the back of the bus." Not only is the segregation system discriminatory, says Ms Ragen, but it can also be dangerous, she says, for those like her who ignore it.

"I said to him look, if you bring me a code of Jewish law and show me where it's written that I have to sit at the back of the bus I'll move. "And he tried to gain support from the rest of the passengers and I underwent a half-hour of pure hell - abuse, humiliation, threats, even physical intimidation."

Supporters of the separation system say the buses involved serve mainly religious Jewish neighbourhoods - but not exclusively.

Many passengers are not happy. You will hear complaints at bus stops all over town. One man told me that if some people wanted segregation buses they should pay a private company to provide them. Another told me that in a society that is democratic and where the buses are subsidised by the government, a minority's concerns should not override those of the majority.

But Shlomo Rosenstein disagrees. He is a city councillor in Jerusalem where a large proportion of Israel's segregation lines operate.

"This really is about positive discrimination, in women's favour. Our religion says there should be no public contact between men and women, this modesty barrier must not be broken."

 

[Tez3]

I suppose you realise you are quoting again the media, this time the BBC which has a quaint tradition of being anti Israeli. I've watched Katya Adler's reports before on the news, not Israeli friendly. The Jewish virtual library link doesn't work. Again though it's someones point of view not necessarily what may be the 'truth'. Your perspective is based on the media and other peoples point of views. You haven't been there and seen the situation for yourself.
The first part just tells us what we have already said ... that there are several bus companies in Israel.
I think I've said enough on this subject, if people are determined to read things into media reports what they want there is no amount of discussion that will persuade them things, in reality, may not be what was reported.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Documenting_BBC_Documentaries.asp

 

[Doc_Jude]

Every ethnic group in the US seeks support and sends same to their ilk at "Home".

REALLY!?! How much of our foreign aid is dedicated to Israel? NO OTHER "ETHNIC" GROUP can pull this!

As to "Western Nation" I base that on that's how I've heard them referred to, their technological advancement as well as government type.

That label is amazing in and of itself. "Western"... because they conform with "The West".

 

[ChadWarner]

What would make Israel a western nation. Just because they worship Yahweh and not Mohammed? They would still stone a woman for adultery or ostracize her for not adhering to some ancient law. Sure the women there have a bit more freedom than their Muslim counterparts but some of the old ways still apply.
That part of the world has a ways to go to catch up with the rest... provided they want to.

Judaism is a religion and not a race. Jewish people come in all shapes sizes and colors so do christians, muslims and buddists.

 

[Tez3]

Ooo ooo , he called me an 'ethnic'!
Ere, wat's one of them then?
Dunno guv, is it one of them there inventors then?
Nah, them's eccentricks them is.
he means one of them aliens
Wat, little green men?
Nah, he means those tosspots from across the border!
You don't mean... gasp... not..... "them"!
Aye lass, I mean them, those damn Lancastrians! The bane of a god fearing Yorkshire Tykes life them be.
Nay lad, it'll be them doolally lot from Brum.
Youse reckons? nah it'll be them soft southerners, aye that's who'll it'll be.

All parties shake heads at thought of soft southerners.

Mebbe though it's them Scousers?
Aye robbing twats they be.
Nay lad ye'll be thinking on them Taffies.
nah then laddies,t'aint any of em, it's that lot in t'next village!

With this sage comment ...all agree.

 

[Xue Sheng]

We are all part of an ethnic group

Ethnic
1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.
2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.
3. being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.
4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.
5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

And now not to take this off post but hey it is a story related to ethnicity and maybe it is time to lighten thngs up for a minute or at least time to completely ignore me

I was once in a room full of guys that I worked with that were all African American and they were discussing a meeting that was going to take place for people of color and that they had all received an invitation and I said. “Hey I didn’t get one” to which they all stop talking and just stared at me (my heritage is very much Germanic by the way and I look very German too) I then said “hmm…then apparently I am clear and without color”. They all broke out laughing.