Female? Back of the bus please.

[CanuckMA]

Your comments are interesting and some are valid. They certainly made me think and remember.

Accomodation here, means agreeing to run segregated public buses demanded by a small minority, operated and paid for by the transportation system that serves the entire public, but which all members of the public (if of the wrong kind) cannot use without harassment or assault.

A public bus is not ‘their world’. According to the transportation ministry the segregation by gender is voluntary. The Israeli student is absolutely within her rights to ride on any public bus. Those who harass her are violating the regulations on public bus travel.

Travel on a public bus is not a choice of private conduct. The key is that public accommodations and public transportation are exactly that: public. And anyone using a public bus is governed by regulations that cover everyone else, including those regarding dress and harassment.


(quote from news story) "I end up feeling helpless and humiliated, like an outsider," said Yoffe, whose public bus from her home in northern Israel to Jerusalem has separate male and female seating because it runs through an ultra-Orthodox community.

The Ultra-Orthodox can certainly run their own private transportation services where they could fully enforce their preferences without any opposition and without infringing on any others. But they do not. In this case (as in many, many others) they have compelled the civil authority to enforce (and pay for) their private, religious preferences and on people who do not share them, (but who must also pay for them if they pay taxes). It is a problem Israel has never been able to solve. Reasons for that inability are well worth another thread.


What are your thoughts ? Especially regarding public enforcement of private preferences. And FYI, I’m white, a female and I rode on buses that were segregated in my southern city till long after the Montgomery boycott succeeded in Alabama. Not until the Public Accomodations Act of 1964 did the law across the US change – and in the real world, segregation in public services like buses and schools slowly changed into the late 60s and 70s and were fought every step of the way.

The Israeli 'public' transportation system is run by a private company. The segregated buses are thus private. They are also identified as such.

you are right, in the South, the blacks fought segregation. This is completely different. Orthodox women are not out there fighting the system. It is outsider, very often secular outsider, with an agenda that want to 'liberate' Orthodox women. I have news for you. Orthodox women don't want to be 'liberated'. The system works very well for us. My wife would be incredibly offended if someone told her she was being demeaned by our way of life. She is an educated, professional woman that functions as well if not beter than a lot of women in the world. She just happens to be an Orthodox Jew, and is bound by some rules. Don't start passing judgement on a community and a way of life you know nothing about.

 

[Kacey]

What are your thoughts ? Especially regarding public enforcement of private preferences. And FYI, I’m white, a female and I rode on buses that were segregated in my southern city till long after the Montgomery boycott succeeded in Alabama. Not until the Public Accomodations Act of 1964 did the law across the US change – and in the real world, segregation in public services like buses and schools slowly changed into the late 60s and 70s and were fought every step of the way.

For what it's worth... I'm female, middle aged, and Jewish - Reform, rather than Orthodox, but still Jewish, and therefore more familiar with Judaism (Orthodox or otherwise) than most people. I have quite a few friends who are Orthodox Jewish, and while I would not choose to follow the religious guidelines that they do, I respect their beliefs, their practices, and their right to both. When I eat in their homes, I am very careful about where I place food, dishes, or utensils, lest I unintentionally place something in the wrong area (meat in the milk area or vice versa), leading them to need to re-kosher the kitchen. When I visit their shul, I stay out of the areas reserved for men, just as the men stay out of the areas reserved for women - because I respect their beliefs. Likewise, when I visit their homes, I wear a skirt; the Orthodox requirement is that people (men and women) dress modestly - meaning, in the current interpretation, that clothing covers them at least from the base of the neck to below the knees and the elbows, in cloth that is not form-fitting and is completely opaque; in addition, women are enjoined to wear skirts so that men who deal with them are not distracted by their charms, and placed at a disadvantage in business dealings. Not to subjugate them - but so that women do not have an unfair advantage over men by distracting them with revealing clothing. Please note, again, that the modesty laws apply to both genders, not just women, and the only real difference is that men wear pants and women wear skirts.

If this were about oppression, that would be a different issue - but it's not about oppression, it's about religion. As I stated previously, in Orthodox tradition (as in the traditions of many religions), women who are menstruating are ritually unclean, and so are any men who come in contact with them - even if the contact is second-hand through objects. The purpose of the segregation of the genders is not to oppress or elevate either gender; it is to ensure that accidental contamination does not occur.

I would no more force contact with myself or objects known to be handled by men (such as bus seats) on members of the Orthodox community than I would force a Muslim to eat pork. Is the woman in the article being derided for wearing trousers? Yes, she is... for clearly, visibly, wearing clothing that the Orthodox community finds to be offensive. Do I find it offensive that she wears trousers? Hardly - I can't remember the last time I work a skirt except for the times I've been to my Orthodox Jewish friends' homes.

Would it be inconvenient for her to wear a skirt and change when she gets to her destination, or take a different bus route? Probably. But it is a private transportation system, and they can make, and enforce, whatever rules they like, as long as they don't violate the laws of the country - and they're not. The woman on the bus, on the other hand, is deliberately insulting the moral sensibility of this group of people - and whether you agree with their practices or not, they have a right, in this situation, to let her know that they don't like her doing it.

You obviously don't like this situation - and that's your choice - but before you compare it to the segregation that occurred in this country, something you apparently feel passionately about (and with good reason), and even more, before you deride it - you need to understand that while it appears the same on the surface, it's really not.

Would you require a Muslim woman to eschew her hajib because you think it's offensive? I wouldn't, not if the woman was comfortable with wearing it - no more than I would require her to wear it if she wasn't comfortable in one. But were I to visit a country in which it was customary for women to wear hajib, I would do it - I would be uncomfortable, I would feel odd, but I would do it, to respect the preferences of the community.

Do I think that this community is taking the best route for expressing their displeasure? Not really... but neither do I see this woman's response (refusing to change her habits while decrying their actions toward her) as being appropriate either.

 

[Sukerkin]

Sad to say I have no time to make a long and considered addition to what looks to be a fascinating thread - good input from several viewpoints ladies and gents :rei:.

I'll fire off a couple of comments that may or may not be contentious and I'll try and get back in here tonight after work for a more thoughtful contribution.

Firstly, allowing religion to stand as a reason for any form of segregation or stratification is an inherently bad idea. As soon as something becomes done "Because God says so" you're on a slippery slope.

Secondly, tolerance of any sort has to be a two way street. For one group to to demand that their ways are accepted and not hindered but another groups mores and codes are not so protected is inherently unjust.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What I'm finding interesting is the different perspectives here on this, and how y'all have been better able to explain the whole situation, from several perspectives, better than some so-called professional news people. Always thought we had some darn good people here

 

[Tez3]

Thank you for the criticism of my post which surprisingly enough I will not be rewriting. It's clear that there is a great amount of misunderstanding about this. As with all media reports it is worth while reading beyond the words printed there.
I think one of the misleading things is the word 'segregation', many people take this to mean the forced separation of one people from another - apartheid. Perhaps a better phrase would be a 'voluntary separation of the sexes', agreed and put into practice by all concerned. It's not about forcing one side or another into a disadvantage, they sincerely believe that women when menstruating should be avoided. They also believe either sex shouldn't wear the clothes of the other sex. It's not about demeaning women, in fact as Canuck pointed out you would demean an Orthodox woman at your peril. There are a lot of advantages you know in banishing the men off to do their thing! Ah I see, you haven't thought that it may actually also be the other way round, that the women send the men off so the women can also do their own thing? Perhaps that would put a different complexion on things?
As has been stated, the bus companies are privatly owned, they are not 'public' transport as such. There is a choice. Get on a 'separated by sex' bus or not, up to you.
If you can delve deeper into the Laws the Orthodox live by, I think you would be very surprised how fair and even handed they actually are. How about the Law that states if you lend someone money you are forbidden to ask for it back if they don't repay you lest you make them feel bad? or the fact that a husband and wife should make love on the Sabbath night and they should enjoy it? The laws about menstruation are also about more than being unclean, they are there to make a man appreciate his wife is there for more than sex, he is to think about the time when she cannot be touched and realise all her other qualities. Women are also not expected to go to Shul nearly as often as men as their are 'more spiritual' than men and they are busy enough as it is!
Please don't judge this situation by comparing it to forcible apartheid, it's nothing of the sort, no one is demeaned and there is a choice. It may be because God says so but Jewish people have long known that we can choose whether we follow that Law or not.

 

[Tez3]

It's also occurred to me that Americans can define 'public' differently from us, we have public schools which are in effect your private schools. In many countries in Europe, UK and Israel included our 'public' bus systems are run by private companies. We will have different bus companies running buses on the same routes. Ah the joys of living in Socialist Britain lol! Our train services are also privately run, again trains from different companies running the same routes.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Human rights should be equal no matter where you live tho.

True... but it is not and when you are in thier house you live by thier rules or you have problems. And if you choose not to live by thier rules, expect problems

She doesn't say she was beaten. As we've already been told the segregated buses are marked as such so she has a choice. It could be taken that she is insulting and challenging their beliefs and values by going on a bus clearly marked as segregated, wearing trousers.I agree that being insulted isn't pleasant but there are two sides to this story. The men may feel that she is equally insulting to them knowing what they believe. It's on a par with injuring cows to Hindus, offering pork to Moslems, or burning the American flag to Americans etc. for her to wear trousers on an Ultra Orthodox bus, to them women don't wear male clothing, it's the Law to them. I don't think people realise how upsetting to them (and such a small thing to us) it is.The fact this is in the news may mean that someone is trying to be provoking.
A friend of mine goes to a Shul that separates men and women with the women going to the balcony, I asked if she didn't want to be downstairs with men and women being equal. She looked at me very strangely, why on earth, she asked, would the women want to be equal with the men, it would mean lowering themselves to their level! don't assume the Ultra Orthodox treat their women badly and remember Judaism has a matriarchal society.

Nicely said

 

[Sukerkin]

It is certainly true that it behoves upon us as civilised beings to take into consideration the feelings and moral codes of those with whom we would associate and I would not argue that if I were to go to the home of another that I should try not to offend them with my behaviour, demeanour or my manner of dress.

However, at the risk of diverging away from the precise point of the OP, as I noted above, tolerance and a willingness to compromise our individual mores for the greater social good has to be a bi-directional process. If it is not then, however mildly expressed or enforced, it is discriminatory.

When those mores and codes come from religious roots then there is a serious danger of what started out as perfectly rational behaviours in their original cultural context to descend into dogmatic prohibition. When that occurs then you get societal gulfs wedging their way into the fabric of a community.

Let those sit for long enough without challenge or removal and their importance and permanence swells out of all sane proportion. Before you know it we're setting fire to each other in the name of {insert name of mythical being here}.

We (as in the English) went through it not so long ago with the atrocities committed by various monarchs of Catholic or Protestant persuasion over dogmatic issues that were not all that much more major than the one under discourse here. For a while it looked as if we would follow an intelligent and rational path into the future but it seems we've left behind our particular Invisible Sky God and replaced him with the no less plausible Free Market Capitalism.

What I'm staggering towards in my usual clumsy fashion is that to simply 'blanket' excuse an action because it's a 'religious' matter or, even worse, paint the 'victim' as being in the wrong sets a dangerous precident.

In the specific case under discussion here I have no way of knowing if the young woman is being deliberately provocative or not. It may be that she has legitimate religious reasons of her own to 'tilt at the windmill' of segregated seating on buses. If she does, are her beliefs less valid than those she confronts? If she doesn't and she's tweaking the nose of the Orthodox for pure devilment, then it still should not be a matter for furore (altho' a little public censure for inconsiderate behaviour might not go amiss)

But of course most world religions, despite protestations to the contrary, are not tolerant of challenges to their canon, no matter how petty - and therein lies the whole problem.

 

[Empty Hands]

...and remember Judaism has a matriarchal society.

Matrilineal, not matriarchal. The structure of the rules and regulations, especially if taken straight from the Hebrew bible, is heavily patriarchal.

 

[CanuckMA]

In the specific case under discussion here I have no way of knowing if the young woman is being deliberately provocative or not. It may be that she has legitimate religious reasons of her own to 'tilt at the windmill' of segregated seating on buses. If she does, are her beliefs less valid than those she confronts? If she doesn't and she's tweaking the nose of the Orthodox for pure devilment, then it still should not be a matter for furore (altho' a little public censure for inconsiderate behaviour might not go amiss)

Her beliefs are just as valid. What is objectionable is her going into an Orthodox neibhourhood and trying to impose her worldview. You would be the first one to protest Orthodox Jews going to the beach and trying to force rvrybody to cover up. Why is it so hard to respect our mores?

There are only a handfull of lines served by segregated buses in Jerusalem. Those that also serve stops outside the Orthodox neighbourhoods also have non-segregated buses running at the same time.

 

[Empty Hands]

What is objectionable is her going into an Orthodox neibhourhood and trying to impose her worldview.

She isn't imposing anything. Trying to force other Orthodox women to wear pants, now that would be imposing. Choosing how to dress yourself doesn't force anything on anyone else.

Perhaps the Orthodox on the bus should take the same advice offered here to the non-Orthodox and not bother someone that doesn't share their beliefs.

As it is, they're lucky they live in Israel and not most other first world nations. A segregated bus line, private or public, wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell in North America or Europe.

 

[Xue Sheng]

As it is, they're lucky they live in Israel and not most other first world nations. A segregated bus line, private or public, wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell in North America or Europe.

And they do not live in North America or Europe and as much as we may not like it the rest of the world is not America either and in many cases wonders why we care, but that is another topic.

I have no idea if this still goes on but in the Orthodox section of Jerusalem they stand on the streets and throw stuff at cars that drive by because it is against there philosophy of no electronic or mechanical or whatever it is operation from Friday to I think Sunday. But there is no one writing stories about this and this has been going on for a lot longer and is much more violent.

And please anyone feel free to correct me if I am wrong on any point I do not know all that much about the beliefs of Orthodox Judaism I only know what I saw on a documentary about Jerusalem a year or so ago on I believe PBS.

 

[Tez3]

A few years ago someone told me they knew all about Jews... they'd watched Fiddler on the Roof. I feel in that situation now along with a couple of you that others are telling us what our own religion, race and society is. Empty Hands I don't tell you what your society is, my society is matriarchal, trust me. yes it's matrilineal as well but dear me don't make the mistake of thinking it's not matriarchal.

Okay, the Ultra Orthodox run the company that owns the buses so that they can run them how they wish, people are welcome to use the buses if they respect the views of the people who run the bus company. It's that simple. Therefore by wearing trousers on the aforesaid bus the girl is trying to force her views on the others. If the Orthodox travel on other peoples transport they abide by the rules of that bus company.
And there are many places in this country and in Europe where segregation of a more forcible type is allowed, but that's going to get into a whole different argument.

 

[Andrew Green]

I have no idea if this still goes on but in the Orthodox section of Jerusalem they stand on the streets and throw stuff at cars that drive by

Not heard of that, but really not that different from some of the things that happen over hear. The red paint at people wearing fur springs to mind. Or the anti-abortion crowd, there was even a group protesting at a military funeral not too long ago.

Fundamentalists can be a pain on every continent...

because it is against there philosophy of no electronic or mechanical or whatever it is operation from Friday to I think Sunday. But there is no one writing stories about this and this has been going on for a lot longer and is much more violent.

Work is not allowed on the Sabbath, that I got. But I am surprised throwing things at cars doesn't fall into that category. I am also surprised they car, my understanding was that while they are not allowed to do work, or to have someone do work for them, someone else doing so in a way that doesn't effect them is perfectly fine.

Judaism doesn't have that "convert everyone" mentality that Christianity or Islam has. So non-jews not observing the rules really shouldn't be a problem?

 

[Empty Hands]

Empty Hands I don't tell you what your society is, my society is matriarchal, trust me. yes it's matrilineal as well but dear me don't make the mistake of thinking it's not matriarchal.

Ritualized disgust at unclean women is not matriarchal. Barring women from furthering their educations is not matriarchal.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/808316.html

Courts composed solely of men who convene to decide whether or not a woman's clothing store is proper is not matriarchal. Nor is vandalizing those stores, or attacking women who wear "improper" clothes.
http://www.koshernexus.org/?p=821

Almost completely preventing women from being rabbis or cantors is certainly not matriarchal.

Can Orthodox women "run the house", or even be dominant over their husbands in certain cases? Certainly, but that does nothing to change the patriarchal standards of the general system in which they operate under. Also, "running the house" is actually a pretty common role for women in decidedly patriarchal societies and times such as feudal Japan. This, of course, limits the participation and power of women in the wider world.

It also changes nothing that Orthodox women support or even enforce patriarchal standards. I've even read of a few black slaves that praised their own servitude as a rescue from heathenism to Christianity. That still does nothing to change the character of the system.

 

[Kacey]

Like so many other topics that come up in the news - we only have one side of this, that of the reporting newspaper. As Andrew said, there are fundamentalists everywhere you go - and whether or not you agree with their actions often depends on how much you agree with their views.

Do I understand the viewpoint of those who dislike this young woman's mode of dress? Certainly.

Do I think that they have the right, on a private conveyance, to let her know that they dislike her mode of dress? Again, yes.

Do I think that the methods they have apparently chosen are over the top? You betcha.

Were any of us there to know what is going on that was not in the article? It doesn't look like it - so there's probably something going on there that we don't know about.

There are plenty of religions that have moral guidelines - it's only when those guidelines go against your own beliefs that people disagree with them. The men who are decrying this woman's mode of dress are fighting to preserve their own religious and cultural identity - and they're doing it in an area in which they are both the majority and legally allowed to preserve that identity. Do I agree with how they've apparently chosen to go about it? No - but I would no more tell these ultra Orthodox that they have to like women in trousers on private buses through the Orthodox enclave than I would go into an Amish community and tell them that they must start dressing like the people in the communities around them - nor would I be particularly surprised if they complained - loudly and vigorously - if I showed up in my usual blue jeans and sweatshirt.

As far as the articles Empty Hands quoted - I understand the ultra Orthodox, their backgrounds, viewpoints, and so on; that doesn't mean I agree with them preventing women from attaining, or demonstrating, equal status with men. And he is correct; like other Biblically based religions, Judaism is patriarchal in nature, although descent is, indeed, matrilineal. But that change must be desired from within the community as well as without, or no change will occur. The Amish have avoided this issue by attempting to isolate themselves completely - but such isolation is increasingly hard to maintain... but that doesn't mean that those who prefer to isolate themselves have to like it when the world intrudes. By isolating themselves from others, they maintain the cultural standards of an earlier time - only as the world continues to push into their enclaves will they come into the 21st century - but they will no doubt do it kicking and screaming, just like any other group that finds itself forced to be inclusive.

 

[Tez3]

Ritualized disgust at unclean women is not matriarchal. Barring women from furthering their educations is not matriarchal.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/808316.html

Courts composed solely of men who convene to decide whether or not a woman's clothing store is proper is not matriarchal. Nor is vandalizing those stores, or attacking women who wear "improper" clothes.
http://www.koshernexus.org/?p=821

Almost completely preventing women from being rabbis or cantors is certainly not matriarchal.

Can Orthodox women "run the house", or even be dominant over their husbands in certain cases? Certainly, but that does nothing to change the patriarchal standards of the general system in which they operate under. Also, "running the house" is actually a pretty common role for women in decidedly patriarchal societies and times such as feudal Japan. This, of course, limits the participation and power of women in the wider world.

It also changes nothing that Orthodox women support or even enforce patriarchal standards. I've even read of a few black slaves that praised their own servitude as a rescue from heathenism to Christianity. That still does nothing to change the character of the system.

Are all Christians the same them? do Catholics and Protestants follow the same rules? what are Methodists, Baptists, Quakers,Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Revivalists etc etc.Trust me we have as many different beliefs in Judaism as you have in Christianity Do you actually know what you mean when you say Orthodox? You chose one sect in Judaism and tar us all with the same brush. For the record I am Orthodox, I don't shave my head, I have a degree and my society is very much female led, yes we have female Rabbis. It's not the Orthodoxy of which you have singled out for scorn and derision I think you need to google some more and find out much more about Judaism before you attack me. These are the Ultra Orthodox of which you speak, they are seen as fanatical by many but they are not "the Orthodox". they are also well able to defend themselves.

http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/denominations.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_denominations

 

[Tez3]

Like so many other topics that come up in the news - we only have one side of this, that of the reporting newspaper. As Andrew said, there are fundamentalists everywhere you go - and whether or not you agree with their actions often depends on how much you agree with their views.

Do I understand the viewpoint of those who dislike this young woman's mode of dress? Certainly.

Do I think that they have the right, on a private conveyance, to let her know that they dislike her mode of dress? Again, yes.

Do I think that the methods they have apparently chosen are over the top? You betcha.

Were any of us there to know what is going on that was not in the article? It doesn't look like it - so there's probably something going on there that we don't know about.

There are plenty of religions that have moral guidelines - it's only when those guidelines go against your own beliefs that people disagree with them. The men who are decrying this woman's mode of dress are fighting to preserve their own religious and cultural identity - and they're doing it in an area in which they are both the majority and legally allowed to preserve that identity. Do I agree with how they've apparently chosen to go about it? No - but I would no more tell these ultra Orthodox that they have to like women in trousers on private buses through the Orthodox enclave than I would go into an Amish community and tell them that they must start dressing like the people in the communities around them - nor would I be particularly surprised if they complained - loudly and vigorously - if I showed up in my usual blue jeans and sweatshirt.

As far as the articles Empty Hands quoted - I understand the ultra Orthodox, their backgrounds, viewpoints, and so on; that doesn't mean I agree with them preventing women from attaining, or demonstrating, equal status with men. And he is correct; like other Biblically based religions, Judaism is patriarchal in nature, although descent is, indeed, matrilineal. But that change must be desired from within the community as well as without, or no change will occur. The Amish have avoided this issue by attempting to isolate themselves completely - but such isolation is increasingly hard to maintain... but that doesn't mean that those who prefer to isolate themselves have to like it when the world intrudes. By isolating themselves from others, they maintain the cultural standards of an earlier time - only as the world continues to push into their enclaves will they come into the 21st century - but they will no doubt do it kicking and screaming, just like any other group that finds itself forced to be inclusive.

What a good response!

I understand too the views of the Ultra Orthodox and while not agreeing with them I understand why they believe as they do, it's very much to do with history.They are fanatical about Judaism and the preservation of our religion albeit as how they see it. Their beliefs are very much born of suffering, coming from the ghettos of Eastern Europe. It doesn't necessarily make them right of course but understanding where that fanaticism comes from may help people see where they are coming from.
Each Jewish community is unique in it's experiences and I'm sure while Kacy and I will agree on things, we have experienced being Jewish differently. My Jewish community is matriarchal as is many I know, of course we have communities who are not.

 

[Empty Hands]

You chose one sect in Judaism and tar us all with the same brush.

No, that is exactly what I am not doing. I have made no general comments about Judaism, only the strain we are talking about in this thread.

For the record I am Orthodox, I don't shave my head, I have a degree and my society is very much female led, yes we have female Rabbis.

That's good to hear. However, I already made the comment that individual situations and attitudes do not change the nature of the system. No matter how you want to slice it, you certainly cannot fairly describe Orthodox Judaism as "matriarchal."

...I think you need to google some more and find out much more about Judaism before you attack me.

I have not attacked you. Claiming that Orthodox Judaism is patriarchal (a stance that Kacey for one confirmed) is no personal attack on you.

 

[Live True]

Thank you for this fascinating thread and the food for thought. Thank you Kacey, Tez, and Empty Hands for keeping a fairly civilized and interesting debate that has brought out many good points to consider.

I think a key point that was stated earlier and perhaps overlooked is that there are several other non-separated bus lines that run the same schedule and the same route. So, my question would be why she repeatedly chooses a seperated one? It's not like she'd be later or inconvenienced...or did I miss something there?

Again, thank you for broadening my understandings and giving me more to ponder.