Fear

[loki09789]

I meant 'lack of confidence IN myself' DUH!

 

[kenpo_cory]

I agree with this idea to a degree, but what does that development you mentioned look like?

How does this concept of fear address the fear experienced during natural disasters, combat, car accidents.... these instances of fear reaction would seem to be more self preservation out of control than lack of confidence to myself. I would treat it like emotional 'shin toughening' by using regular, controllable doses of exposure to desensitize my mind/body so that I don't experience hyper-reactions - which usually happens with first time/infrequent experiences.

I think fear reactions can be defined as insecurity in some cases. But, training/adapting to fear would require it to also be recognized as a chemical/emotional/neurological reaction to percieved threats.

Dealing with that type of fear is the 'get right back on the horse' type of training. If I get hit by a back fist, I could flinch when ever I see a back fist coming after that moment unless I train that flinch out of my reactions by getting back on the horse of facing backfist.

Maybe retraining my ability to read the backfist and reaction to it would help build confidence in myself and my skill as well as 'deprogramming' paralysis due to fear.

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable on the subject of fear. So is it true that facing your fear is the best way to overcome it then? That's what I gathered from this post. I have a huge fear of deep water, I gasp uncontrollably when I'm in a pool or something and the water gets to around my neck. Is the best way for me to overcome that to just get in the pool and go for it?

 

[loki09789]

If you think it is the best way, it might be. I also said that confrontation therapy is based on using controlled doses. If you are seriously asking and not just trying to be confrontational (ugh! bad joke) then you might want to find a therapist who is trained and talk this fear over with him/her. If you mention confrontation therapy as an option and they agree, go for it.

My point is that TONY is already on the right track by taking control of his fear issues and making small differences. My point is that fear is about insecurity as well as natural self preservation issues. My point is to offer info.

What is your point?

Paul M

 

[kenpo_cory]

If you think it is the best way, it might be. I also said that confrontation therapy is based on using controlled doses. If you are seriously asking and not just trying to be confrontational (ugh! bad joke) then you might want to find a therapist who is trained and talk this fear over with him/her. If you mention confrontation therapy as an option and they agree, go for it.

My point is that TONY is already on the right track by taking control of his fear issues and making small differences. My point is that fear is about insecurity as well as natural self preservation issues. My point is to offer info.

What is your point?

Paul M

Just looking for advice on a fear that has controlled me for all of my life and you seemed to know what you were talking about. So I guess I dont have a point.

 

[MA-Caver]

I used to have a lot of fear. I was bullied in school all the way up to when I dropped out in the 9th grade. I got my GED and took some courses at a community college and went into a university. One guy tried to bully me there and I ended up (thanks for studying MA between HS and College) kicking his ***.
I've been threatened in almost every conceivable manner since and found 99.99% of it was just talk. Yes I was in several fights over the years but of all the confrontations (verbal and physical) I learned how not to fear. Right now I feel confident enough with myself to say "I fear no man." I generally know how to (TRY) talk my way out of a fight and know enough (at present) to prevent from being seriously hurt in a fight.

My point is that it took years of soul searching and study of the human persona to realize what fear is. In AA we jokingly refer to fear as an acronymn for "F--- everything and run." (there are dozens of variations of this btw).

Something that I read from Frank Herbert's "Dune" helped me understand more about what fear is; this is a mantra used by the lead character and his mother when faced with a frightful/dangerous/threatening situation :

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

This is another quote which helped me...it required some thinking after reading it.

It is not death that a man should fear, but he should fear never beginning to live. ~ Marcus Aurelius ~

I've learned also that most agressive people are simply acting out their inner fears or using agression to hide from their fears. Study those around you. Don't make the mistake of thinking this about everyone but it usually is a sure bet.
Being aware of your surroundings definitely helps from being taken by surprise. But gain also the knowledge of human behavior to better understand the actions of those around you. It may not be 100% accurate but after a while it (understanding) flows easily.

Peace
:asian:

(also check out this little gem of a site) http://www.cybernation.com/victory/quotations/subjects/quotes_fear.html

 

[loki09789]

Just looking for advice on a fear that has controlled me for all of my life and you seemed to know what you were talking about. So I guess I dont have a point.

No you do have a point, just wanted to clarify what it was. Sometimes it is hard to understand if someone is being a smart aleck or sincere. You seem to fall into the second category. Again, best advice would be to talk to someone really qualified and has the time. Same book references for Tony work in your case too. But:

Basically take it in small doses and tell yourself to be aware of what is really happening, internally and externally. What are you afraid will happen? What is actually happening? What can you do to keep the thing you fear from manifesting?

Work out what you are comfortable doing into phases. If being up to your neck is too much, how about up to your chest/belly and putting your face in the water for a count of ten and then progressively longer? Work your way incrementally and safely until you can cope with the whole pool. Even telling the life guard what you are doing so that you feel that you are supervised might help as well. Bring a friend for support (but not physical) just moral/safety. Establishing short term and small steps you can handle will lead to the large goal of being comfortable in the whole pool because you are taking control of something that you feel is beyond your control, thus inducing a self preservation hyper reaction, or irrational fear.

I am really armchairing here, so don't take this as gospel, just common sense and shared lessons.

Confrontation therapy might not be the best for you, or just not for right now. If it really bothers you seek professional help to develop understanding and plans on coping/overcoming it.

I don't know if the show is still on, but "WORST CASE SCENARIO" had a segment that was based on this approach. If it is still on, even in rerun, you will see how it works.

 

[loki09789]

gain also the knowledge of human behavior to better understand the actions of those around you. It may not be 100% accurate but after a while it (understanding) flows easily.
[/url]

Nice point about learning. Fear is usually built on uncertainty or percieved lack of control. Knowledge and learning empower people. Great for confidence.

 

[Tony]

I used to have a lot of fear. I was bullied in school all the way up to when I dropped out in the 9th grade. I got my GED and took some courses at a community college and went into a university. One guy tried to bully me there and I ended up (thanks for studying MA between HS and College) kicking his ***.
I've been threatened in almost every conceivable manner since and found 99.99% of it was just talk. Yes I was in several fights over the years but of all the confrontations (verbal and physical) I learned how not to fear. Right now I feel confident enough with myself to say "I fear no man." I generally know how to (TRY) talk my way out of a fight and know enough (at present) to prevent from being seriously hurt in a fight.

My point is that it took years of soul searching and study of the human persona to realize what fear is. In AA we jokingly refer to fear as an acronymn for "F--- everything and run." (there are dozens of variations of this btw).

Something that I read from Frank Herbert's "Dune" helped me understand more about what fear is; this is a mantra used by the lead character and his mother when faced with a frightful/dangerous/threatening situation :

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

This is another quote which helped me...it required some thinking after reading it.

It is not death that a man should fear, but he should fear never beginning to live. ~ Marcus Aurelius ~

I've learned also that most agressive people are simply acting out their inner fears or using agression to hide from their fears. Study those around you. Don't make the mistake of thinking this about everyone but it usually is a sure bet.
Being aware of your surroundings definitely helps from being taken by surprise. But gain also the knowledge of human behavior to better understand the actions of those around you. It may not be 100% accurate but after a while it (understanding) flows easily.

Peace
:asian:

(also check out this little gem of a site) http://www.cybernation.com/victory/quotations/subjects/quotes_fear.html

Hi MAcaver

Thats a great post! Thanks its certainly made me think and I did read the list of quotes, very inspirational! I think what I do is work up from the small fears I have to the bigger ones in some kind of hierarchy and work from there!
I too was bullied at school but I have never been able to fight back! I constantly feel a coward if I am verbally threatened and I also try to talk myself out of possible confrontation. Then again I suppose I should thank myself for having this fear, it has saved me many times!

 

[Tony]

Fear is the most strangest thing! i remember receiving a very firm talking down from a so called friend of mine because something I said about him was taken out of context! Some I said which was not meant to be a negative but more a concern which I commented to another so called "friend" who has no morals and a mouth like a fog horn misinterpreted what I had said and told him.
The result was very scary threatening behviour from my other friend, who was rather upset with me! I know how bad tempered he can be but I managed to hold my own and I really surprised myself! I didn't think I was capable of defending myself like that! But I was on the point of crying and I felt afraid but I don't think he could tell! I was really proud of the way I handled that situation! However later there was another situation where he was being very uncomplimentary and just because I took offence to it he became threatening, so I just retreated. We were on Holiday at the time and I didn't want to have it ruined with further arguments! But to be honest I was scared of what would happen! But if I made such remarks about him he would totally fly off the handle! I'm expected to take this kind of abuse as a joke because I don't think he saw he was doing anything wrong but I felt offended and managed to find some courage to speak up! Why I did I don't know because it didn't seem like a good idea! But I know 100% if I had made the same comment to him he would have got really mad! I know this when I have made comments that he has said have been cocky. Whereas he has made many jokes at my expense, which I have laughed off, but I could not imagine making jokes about him!
I know I should find new friends but he happens to be friends with my best friend so its near enough impossible because we all go out together unless he is doing something else and I will call my other friend up to out with.
This guy (the hothead that is) is the one who has started training in Taekwondo and because he has no humility and control this makes him dangerous. He once challenged me to a sparring match, to which I declined, but he got silly and called me names, but I didn't want to, for the sole reason that I was afraid! Although I have some good techniques I have doubted my abilities and I had no idea how I would have faired against him or anyone!
But I do feel however he was on an ego trip and I think I did the best thing by refusing to spar with him! If he had won he would have been gloating, and not showing any characteristics of a good Martial Artist, and certainly showing no humility or honour!
This is one of the reasons now I have started to stay behind after class for the sparring just so that I get used to getting hit and dealing with such encounters!

 

[Shotochem]

I agree with this idea to a degree, but what does that development you mentioned look like?

How does this concept of fear address the fear experienced during natural disasters, combat, car accidents.... these instances of fear reaction would seem to be more self preservation out of control than lack of confidence to myself. I would treat it like emotional 'shin toughening' by using regular, controllable doses of exposure to desensitize my mind/body so that I don't experience hyper-reactions - which usually happens with first time/infrequent experiences.

When it comes to fears associated with MA, my only way of overcoming them was to condition myself to the point where I would not flinch and eventually it led to being fearless while moving into an attack while countering. I found that the more I trained and the more my skill level increased, the less fear I had. I managed to turn my fear into respect and an understanding of what I am facing.

When it comes to real world fears, it is a lot more difficult. If one can keep a clear head and stay rational, you can work around your fears. An example is when my son was injured in a car accident and was taken out of the car by paramedics, I was downright frightened for his well being.
He was terrified and injured. I had to put aside my fears to help him overcome his. When something has to be done you just have to do it.

Its hard to explain but if you understand what you are afraid of and what makes it tick, you take away its power over you. So far its helped me from being deadly afraid of heights to just very uncomfortable. I reasoned that there is a rope holding me and that it was strong enough to support me ect...

I hope all this babble-ing makes sense..

 

[kenpo_cory]

No you do have a point, just wanted to clarify what it was. Sometimes it is hard to understand if someone is being a smart aleck or sincere. You seem to fall into the second category. Again, best advice would be to talk to someone really qualified and has the time. Same book references for Tony work in your case too. But:

Basically take it in small doses and tell yourself to be aware of what is really happening, internally and externally. What are you afraid will happen? What is actually happening? What can you do to keep the thing you fear from manifesting?

Work out what you are comfortable doing into phases. If being up to your neck is too much, how about up to your chest/belly and putting your face in the water for a count of ten and then progressively longer? Work your way incrementally and safely until you can cope with the whole pool. Even telling the life guard what you are doing so that you feel that you are supervised might help as well. Bring a friend for support (but not physical) just moral/safety. Establishing short term and small steps you can handle will lead to the large goal of being comfortable in the whole pool because you are taking control of something that you feel is beyond your control, thus inducing a self preservation hyper reaction, or irrational fear.

I am really armchairing here, so don't take this as gospel, just common sense and shared lessons.

Confrontation therapy might not be the best for you, or just not for right now. If it really bothers you seek professional help to develop understanding and plans on coping/overcoming it.

I don't know if the show is still on, but "WORST CASE SCENARIO" had a segment that was based on this approach. If it is still on, even in rerun, you will see how it works.

Thanks for the advice. :asian:

 

[theletch1]

Kenpo Cory, I had pretty much the same problem when I began to scuba/snorkel. The idea of inhaling when I knew I was under water was so foreign to my mind that even with a tank on my back and mouthpiece in I couldn't enhale. I did the same thing that Loki suggested you do. I would get to a depth that I could stand up in and put on a snorkel and mask and just dunked my head under water and started to try to breathe. It wasn't long until I had conquered my mental block against breathing through a mouthpiece while under water.

 

[loki09789]

Jeff,

I think your signature quote is a good way of looking at this topic of fear in relation to confrontation therapy. Avoiding isn't dealing.

I hope I don't come off as some know it all, but coming from a teaching background it is just a habit to pick up and tie together things as they come my way. In a different thread I said that, to me, part of the warrior spirit is thirst for a challenge, and education is a constant challenge of the mind.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Kenpo Cory, I had pretty much the same problem when I began to scuba/snorkel. The idea of inhaling when I knew I was under water was so foreign to my mind that even with a tank on my back and mouthpiece in I couldn't enhale. I did the same thing that Loki suggested you do. I would get to a depth that I could stand up in and put on a snorkel and mask and just dunked my head under water and started to try to breathe. It wasn't long until I had conquered my mental block against breathing through a mouthpiece while under water.

Yeah I think I'm just gonna have to get out there and overcome my fear of deep water. My fiancé has offered numerous times to help me. I think it's time to put it all behind me and overcome this.

 

[MA-Caver]

Hi MAcaver
Thats a great post! Thanks its certainly made me think and I did read the list of quotes, very inspirational! I think what I do is work up from the small fears I have to the bigger ones in some kind of hierarchy and work from there!
I too was bullied at school but I have never been able to fight back! I constantly feel a coward if I am verbally threatened and I also try to talk myself out of possible confrontation. Then again I suppose I should thank myself for having this fear, it has saved me many times!

You're welcome. When I left the library I had dozens of other little things to add on but ran out of time. Sucks having to do all of my surfing with a one hour time limit.

You've received a lot of good advice from the others here. Now it's up to you to apply it. If you've a good working/friendship level with your MA instructor I'd speak to him (privately of course) about it. He may have a way for you to apply fear-training to your regular lessons.
IMO; 95% of us here on Martial Talk took up Martial Arts for one base reason. Fear. Fear of getting hurt. All other reasons are secondary. Our reasons now (particularly higher ranks/belts) are radically different but the principal reason ... the one DEEP down inside (and the one that most probably won't admit to) is because of fear. Tired of being afraid and taking steps to do something about it.

One last thing... remember what the Wizard said to the Cowardly Lion (movie version): "...you think that simply because you run away from danger you're a coward, my friend you're confusing that with wisdom...."

 

[Kris]

Fear is the most strangest thing! i remember receiving a very firm talking down from a so called friend of mine because something I said about him was taken out of context! Some I said which was not meant to be a negative but more a concern which I commented to another so called "friend" who has no morals and a mouth like a fog horn misinterpreted what I had said and told him.
The result was very scary threatening behviour from my other friend, who was rather upset with me! I know how bad tempered he can be but I managed to hold my own and I really surprised myself! I didn't think I was capable of defending myself like that! But I was on the point of crying and I felt afraid but I don't think he could tell! I was really proud of the way I handled that situation! However later there was another situation where he was being very uncomplimentary and just because I took offence to it he became threatening, so I just retreated. We were on Holiday at the time and I didn't want to have it ruined with further arguments! But to be honest I was scared of what would happen! But if I made such remarks about him he would totally fly off the handle! I'm expected to take this kind of abuse as a joke because I don't think he saw he was doing anything wrong but I felt offended and managed to find some courage to speak up! Why I did I don't know because it didn't seem like a good idea! But I know 100% if I had made the same comment to him he would have got really mad! I know this when I have made comments that he has said have been cocky. Whereas he has made many jokes at my expense, which I have laughed off, but I could not imagine making jokes about him!
I know I should find new friends but he happens to be friends with my best friend so its near enough impossible because we all go out together unless he is doing something else and I will call my other friend up to out with.
This guy (the hothead that is) is the one who has started training in Taekwondo and because he has no humility and control this makes him dangerous. He once challenged me to a sparring match, to which I declined, but he got silly and called me names, but I didn't want to, for the sole reason that I was afraid! Although I have some good techniques I have doubted my abilities and I had no idea how I would have faired against him or anyone!
But I do feel however he was on an ego trip and I think I did the best thing by refusing to spar with him! If he had won he would have been gloating, and not showing any characteristics of a good Martial Artist, and certainly showing no humility or honour!
This is one of the reasons now I have started to stay behind after class for the sparring just so that I get used to getting hit and dealing with such encounters!

Tony i don't know what exactly it is you are afraid of, is it being physically hurt, or emotionally?

When people get fired up at you, specially friends, it is highly unlikely that they're gonna beat the crap out of you. I have a friend who I used to get a lot insulting jokes from and it really used to get me down, then one day, it just ceased to bother me. I don't really know why, i just thought, who cares, if he wants to be a jerk let him, bugger him, his lose not mine. I'm now pretty good friends with him, and I knock him as much as he does me, and we have no problems. He is however a particularly violent person, and despite the fact that i could wipe the floor with him, he does still intimidate me sometimes, its just something some people can do, I don't know how or why. Just think though, if it comes down to a physical fight, you probably will smash them even if you get hurt yourself, remeber, physical wounds heal, but emotional damage can last a very long time if you allow this sort of crap to keep getting you down.

I just developed a mental attitude somewhere along the line, such that it really doesn't bother me what people say, i can laugh at myself, thats probably the biggest thing, you should try taking thigs a little more light heartedly, if someone calls you a ****head, specially if their a friend, it's probably just good natured slagging, don't let it worry you!

People will probably tell you, specially the amature psychiatrists among us that this is bad advice, but i say just get over it. Easier said than done i know, but whats the worst thats gonna happen, someone knocks you unconcious, yay, it's stupidly unlikely that someone who just wants to prove their hard is really gonna hurt you. And the sort of people that will, are very, very easy to tell apart from just the usual hard man type, their the only ones you really have to avoid.

The sparring however is a brilliant step to take on the road to conquering any fear of physical confrontation. I personally used to have an abnormal worry of being swamped in a fight, since i have started Ju Jitsu, that fear has completely vanished in just a few weeks, simply cause i have experienced it.

Good on you, keep up with the sparring, and just try giving people as good as you get, if they get all mucho, and their a friend, just let em know you were joking, if it's some random that you have p'd off then some assertive talking down of the situation is all thats required, just appeal to their sense of pride, let them think they would have it all over you, just never let yourself believe that, always know you can give them as good as you get, or that you'll atleast try.

Good Luck.

 

[Kris]

When it comes to fears associated with MA, my only way of overcoming them was to condition myself to the point where I would not flinch and eventually it led to being fearless while moving into an attack while countering. I found that the more I trained and the more my skill level increased, the less fear I had. I managed to turn my fear into respect and an understanding of what I am facing.

When it comes to real world fears, it is a lot more difficult. If one can keep a clear head and stay rational, you can work around your fears. An example is when my son was injured in a car accident and was taken out of the car by paramedics, I was downright frightened for his well being.
He was terrified and injured. I had to put aside my fears to help him overcome his. When something has to be done you just have to do it.

Its hard to explain but if you understand what you are afraid of and what makes it tick, you take away its power over you. So far its helped me from being deadly afraid of heights to just very uncomfortable. I reasoned that there is a rope holding me and that it was strong enough to support me ect...

I hope all this babble-ing makes sense..

This is really good advice as far as i'm concerned. that probably doesn't count for much however...lol......:ultracool

 

[Tony]

Tony i don't know what exactly it is you are afraid of, is it being physically hurt, or emotionally?

When people get fired up at you, specially friends, it is highly unlikely that they're gonna beat the crap out of you. I have a friend who I used to get a lot insulting jokes from and it really used to get me down, then one day, it just ceased to bother me. I don't really know why, i just thought, who cares, if he wants to be a jerk let him, bugger him, his lose not mine. I'm now pretty good friends with him, and I knock him as much as he does me, and we have no problems. He is however a particularly violent person, and despite the fact that i could wipe the floor with him, he does still intimidate me sometimes, its just something some people can do, I don't know how or why. Just think though, if it comes down to a physical fight, you probably will smash them even if you get hurt yourself, remeber, physical wounds heal, but emotional damage can last a very long time if you allow this sort of crap to keep getting you down.

I just developed a mental attitude somewhere along the line, such that it really doesn't bother me what people say, i can laugh at myself, thats probably the biggest thing, you should try taking thigs a little more light heartedly, if someone calls you a ****head, specially if their a friend, it's probably just good natured slagging, don't let it worry you!

People will probably tell you, specially the amature psychiatrists among us that this is bad advice, but i say just get over it. Easier said than done i know, but whats the worst thats gonna happen, someone knocks you unconcious, yay, it's stupidly unlikely that someone who just wants to prove their hard is really gonna hurt you. And the sort of people that will, are very, very easy to tell apart from just the usual hard man type, their the only ones you really have to avoid.

The sparring however is a brilliant step to take on the road to conquering any fear of physical confrontation. I personally used to have an abnormal worry of being swamped in a fight, since i have started Ju Jitsu, that fear has completely vanished in just a few weeks, simply cause i have experienced it.

Good on you, keep up with the sparring, and just try giving people as good as you get, if they get all mucho, and their a friend, just let em know you were joking, if it's some random that you have p'd off then some assertive talking down of the situation is all thats required, just appeal to their sense of pride, let them think they would have it all over you, just never let yourself believe that, always know you can give them as good as you get, or that you'll atleast try.

Good Luck.

Hi Kris

Thanks, thats great advice! I'm going to keep doing the sparring! It was a killer class Tuesday and after that the last half hour was for those of us who were sparring. We did some pad work and then went into the sparring! Didn't have time to swap partners unfortunately. That is always good sparring with someone who I don't know what their skills are like! That uncertainty is helps prepare for a real confrontation.
I have talked my way out of a lot of situations that could have turned into a fight but I was scared in every one of them! For example in a nightclub some guy gestured for me to move from his spot, where he was sitting! I moved without a fuss, but I felt like a coward for not standing up for myself and teaching him some manners! but it would have resulted in violence and there is no telling what kind of person he was. He could have been a complete Psycho or he might have been in the mood for a fight, because there are those people out there who get off on that kind of thing!
So how's the Jujitsu going? I thought about doing that too long with my Kung fu which I really enjoy but we don't get a lot of time for all the self defence stuff, even though they're supposed to be in the forms! Last night I went to see this Jujitsu class and its looks quite interesting. Because I turned up late I could only watch but its something worth considering. But as I have a grading soon, I don't want to confuse myself!
So Kris do you also study Muay Thai as well, because I think you mentioned you did, I'm not sure!

 

[theletch1]

Jeff,

I think your signature quote is a good way of looking at this topic of fear in relation to confrontation therapy. Avoiding isn't dealing.

I hope I don't come off as some know it all, but coming from a teaching background it is just a habit to pick up and tie together things as they come my way. In a different thread I said that, to me, part of the warrior spirit is thirst for a challenge, and education is a constant challenge of the mind.

Loki, my sig line is a phrase that my aikido instructor uses on a regular basis when talking about blending with your attacker. It's just one of those things in the MA that translates as well to the mental defense side as it does to the physical defense side.

 

[loki09789]

Yeah I think I'm just gonna have to get out there and overcome my fear of deep water. My fiancé has offered numerous times to help me. I think it's time to put it all behind me and overcome this.

Spending time with your future wife in a bathing suit and you turned it down!?

Cory: Honey, how do I do that again, can you show me ?
Fiance: Sure. Here it is easier if you lay back against me....
Cory: I still don't get it. Why don't you do it while I hold you up and that way I can feel (ahem) and see how it is suppose to go....

Seriously though, this is a good choice of helper. Trust her with your life/insecurities builds trust, trust builds security .... that bubble of security might be helpful in and out of the pool.