Farenheit 9/11

[michaeledward]

Michael Moore's newest film won the Cannes film festival's 'Golden Palm' award. The jury awarding this honor included Quinten Tarrantino, Edwidge Danticat, Emmanuelle Beart, Jerry Schatzberg, Kathleen Turner, Peter von Bagh, Tilda Swinton and Tsui Hark.

The film reportedly analizes the connections between the Bush family, and the Saud family (ruling family in Saudia Arabia). It also looks back to the election of 2000, the events surrounding September 11, 2001, and the build up to and the aftermath of the war in Iraq.

As we all have heard, the Disney Company has refused to distribute the film (through Buena Vista Distribution). Apprantly, a deal has been worked out for Mirimax (a Disney subsidiary) to purchase the film, and find a new distribution channel for the film.

What are your opinions of this series of events?
Will you go see the movie?
Do you see this as a bad effect of media deregulation?

I can't wait for the film to open in my neighborhood cinema.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Michael Moore's newest film won the Cannes film festival's 'Golden Palm' award. The jury awarding this honor included Quinten Tarrantino, Edwidge Danticat, Emmanuelle Beart, Jerry Schatzberg, Kathleen Turner, Peter von Bagh, Tilda Swinton and Tsui Hark.

The film reportedly analizes the connections between the Bush family, and the Saud family (ruling family in Saudia Arabia). It also looks back to the election of 2000, the events surrounding September 11, 2001, and the build up to and the aftermath of the war in Iraq.

As we all have heard, the Disney Company has refused to distribute the film (through Buena Vista Distribution). Apprantly, a deal has been worked out for Mirimax (a Disney subsidiary) to purchase the film, and find a new distribution channel for the film.

What are your opinions of this series of events?
Will you go see the movie?
Do you see this as a bad effect of media deregulation?

I can't wait for the film to open in my neighborhood cinema.

Mike

Well they may be some truth to the Bush Illumanati story. I woudl like to see more of it.

Yet, I will not go see the movie. Micheal Moore, jumps on band wagons and twists and turns scenes to present his propraganda. Some say he is a great reporter of the truth. I say her reports his version, and not unbiased, and in my opinion is extemely biased.

As to Media Deregulation, the only regulation I believe in is for national security dealing with the lives our citizens and our soldiers. Otherwise, if it is history or does not cause damage or risk to our soldiers, then report it.

Micheal Moore is a total Jerk.

Just my opinion
:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

Micheal Moore, jumps on band wagons and twists and turns scenes to present his propraganda

I tend to agree with this statement. If it is a Big headline issue he wants to put his slant on it, possibly ignoring many of the facts. ("If it bleeds it makes $$") I'm not saying he may not have valid points but they will be used in part or twisted to prove his ideas.
I will not see the movie

 

[Phoenix44]

I think it's frightening that American citizens need to be afraid of speaking their minds for fear of retribution. Even MORE frightening is the relationship between the Bush administration and big business, where business influences govt policy, and the govt uses business to advance it's agenda.

 

[Thesemindz]

I think it's frightening that American citizens need to be afraid of speaking their minds for fear of retribution.

Could you please elaborate more on this sentence. I also think it is frightening if American citizens can't speak freely without fear of retribution. What specifically are you talking about here?


-Rob

 

[Ender]

Anything Michael Moore does should be taken with a grain of salt. This unethical mans' "documentaries" are filled with propaganda, lies, innuendoes and staged theatrics. Very little has to do with facts. Maybe he'll win as a comedy..*L

 

[MisterMike]

Anything Michael Moore does should be taken with a grain of salt. This unethical mans' "documentaries" are filled with propaganda, lies, innuendoes and staged theatrics. Very little has to do with facts. Maybe he'll win as a comedy..*L

Hah! More like the whole salt mine. The whole Bowling for Columbine thing was a piece of fiction..er umm.. docudrama or whatever, so I wouldn't expect much more from this.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Unlike, say, a George Bush press conference or a Michael Savage broadcast, I suppose.

Have you actually seen any of these movies? Can you cite something specific that's an error? Can you cite a source documenting the fact in that particular case?

He's pretty open about what he's propagandizing for. So what's the complaint? Oh, right, forgot--he sees the world differently than you do.

Hey, call him a pinko America-hater. I just love that.

 

[MisterMike]

Unlike, say, a George Bush press conference or a Michael Savage broadcast, I suppose.

Have you actually seen any of these movies? Can you cite something specific that's an error? Can you cite a source documenting the fact in that particular case?

He's pretty open about what he's propagandizing for. So what's the complaint? Oh, right, forgot--he sees the world differently than you do.

Hey, call him a pinko America-hater. I just love that.

I don't know who Michael Savage is, so I couldn't comment.

I will not see any of these movies because of where the money goes. I have however read reviews on the first (the second is not out yet of course).

No complaint. We don't all walk around so angry like you do. Apparently one of us has insulted one of your heros?

 

[michaeledward]

I will not see any of these movies because of where the money goes. I have however read reviews on the first (the second is not out yet of course).

It is interesting how much the movie review is more important than the movie; how the book review is more important than the book.

I am reading Eric Alterman's 'What Liberal Media?', and he points out that because so few American's actually read the book, it is more important to get the correct spin on the book review. This apparently is one of the founding purposes of Heritage Foundation. This wonderful think tank regularly submits 'Point-of-View' submissions to over one hundred newspapers to create the correct spin. It is interesting.

On this note ... I am going to start a new thread ... Liberal Media / Conservative Media. I look forward to everyone's participation.

Mike

 

[MisterMike]

It is interesting how much the movie review is more important than the movie; how the book review is more important than the book.

In what respect?

I hope I didn't come across as saying one was more important over the other. by thetime I read reviews of the first movie, it had already been out for over a year. That's plenty of time for people to write about scenes and depictions in the movie.

 

[michaeledward]

In what respect?

The whole Bowling for Columbine thing was a piece of fiction

I hope I didn't come across as saying one was more important over the other. by thetime I read reviews of the first movie, it had already been out for over a year. That's plenty of time for people to write about scenes and depictions in the movie.

You made a statement concerning the validity / truthfulness of the movie 'Bowling for Columbine' based on reviews of other people. Are you sure that those whose reviews you reviewed actually saw the movie?

Your statements were pretty bold for someone who only read the review.

Mike

 

[MisterMike]

You made a statement concerning the validity / truthfulness of the movie 'Bowling for Columbine' based on reviews of other people. Are you sure that those whose reviews you reviewed actually saw the movie?

Your statements were pretty bold for someone who only read the review.

Mike

Truthfulness, yes. I think it is bolder to call something a documentary when it stretches the truth, or is in fact, deceptive.

Here's one of the many reviewers who I am sure saw the movie:

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

In most cases I will decide on whether to go to a movie based on the preview and some reviews. In this movie's case, from a movie with Gene Hackman, "I've seen better film on teeth."

 

[michaeledward]

We have discussed people's opinions of Bowling for Columbine in other places, and we do not need to revisit that in this thread.

While offering no opinion in favor of, or against the practice, I was pointing out that many seem to defend and support opinions based on the reviews of a work, rather than the work itself. I find that interesting.

If I describe to you the Mona Lisa, my description, no matter how insightful, is not the Mona Lisa. And further, my qualifications to review the Mona Lisa are nowhere evident; as is often the case with complicated topics, the reviewer does not necessarily have the depth of understanding on a given topic as the author.

Things that make you go, "Hmmm."

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I see that once again a conservative has nothing to offer save personal attack. I could tell you that I don't seem to be the one who's flipping out because somewhere They might be teaching evolution, or marrying gay people, or making movies I don't like, or refusing to validate beatings and torture that I consider necessary, but hey, keep on a-fantasizing. It's certainly easier.

Read, "The Savage Nation," duder. Listen to the nationally syndicated radio show, or catch this guy's act on TV: he's all over the damn place.

Ever wonder whether it's good to argue with people who know more about your own arguments than you do?

 

[MisterMike]

Well, I see that once again a conservative has nothing to offer save personal attack. I could tell you that I don't seem to be the one who's flipping out because somewhere They might be teaching evolution, or marrying gay people, or making movies I don't like, or refusing to validate beatings and torture that I consider necessary, but hey, keep on a-fantasizing. It's certainly easier.

Read, "The Savage Nation," duder. Listen to the nationally syndicated radio show, or catch this guy's act on TV: he's all over the damn place.

Ever wonder whether it's good to argue with people who know more about your own arguments than you do?

Again a doctor has enlightened us with the labels, sterotypes and inability to read posts except to extract some sort of fantasized attack.

 

[MisterMike]

We have discussed people's opinions of Bowling for Columbine in other places, and we do not need to revisit that in this thread.

While offering no opinion in favor of, or against the practice, I was pointing out that many seem to defend and support opinions based on the reviews of a work, rather than the work itself. I find that interesting.

If I describe to you the Mona Lisa, my description, no matter how insightful, is not the Mona Lisa. And further, my qualifications to review the Mona Lisa are nowhere evident; as is often the case with complicated topics, the reviewer does not necessarily have the depth of understanding on a given topic as the author.

Things that make you go, "Hmmm."

But if 100 people tell you it is a nice painting you might decide to fly to France. If 100 people tell you it isn't worth it, you might put it off a bit eh? Or check it out on the web?

A reviewer may not have insight, but legitimate critics often have just as much or more.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Unlike, say, a George Bush press conference or a Michael Savage broadcast, I suppose.

Have you actually seen any of these movies? Can you cite something specific that's an error? Can you cite a source documenting the fact in that particular case?

He's pretty open about what he's propagandizing for. So what's the complaint? Oh, right, forgot--he sees the world differently than you do.

Hey, call him a pinko America-hater. I just love that.

Robert,

I lived in Flint where he filmed a large portion of Roger and Me.

Do a search on Micheal Moore on this site, you will find my other rants.

In general though, he made it look like the CEO od GM did not wish to see him because he had somethign to hide. Nor do to the fact that he did not have an appointment. There is also the case of the Rabbit lady that was put in just ot get people upset. She sold Rabbits for pets of food. He made it look like because GM pulled out jobs from Flint, that people now had to raise and eat Rabbits to get by. This lady and her family, sold rabbits while working for GM. I can go to any city and find a person like this and make it look bad.

Now as to press conferences or new releases, I also think they are full of propaganda, just that these are not billed as documentaries nor as historical version of the truth. They are just what they are. A press release. Do you actually think the other party is not going to take it apart? Of course they are.

So once again Micheal Moore is someone I do not care to see or support. When asked what has he done recently for Flint when he was back again trying to get ideas for a new movie, he found out that the city and the Unions did not have a leg to stand on. Neither party wanted to work with GM. Just to make demands.

There are people who are third generation not working for GM, yet insist that they could have had a Job with GM if they wanted it, but cannot because GM will nto hire people. Large companies are not social security for people. If you work for them expect to work for them and not skip out of work and get paid, or sleep and get paid, or ... , .

And yes, I was raised in a Union house, and understand the needs and reasons for a Union. I just do not like the abuse of power they have done.

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. "This unethical mans' "documentaries" are filled with propaganda, lies, innuendoes and staged theatrics."

2. "We don't all walk around so angry like you do."

Whoops, my bad. No personal attacks there. Whatever was I thinking. The mere fact that types like Rush and Savage say exactly the same sorts of things about people they don't like is pure coincidence.

I notice, though, that nobody has yet come up with a fact that Moore got wrong--only claims that he's a creep, or assertions about the rabbit lady's meaning, or unsubstantiated claims that it's all the unions' fault. Why is that? Shouldn't be hard, given that everything's so, "filled with...lies."

You're being hoodwinked, guys. People like the directors of GM couldn't care less about their workers, only about their profits: that's what advanced capitalism is, kids. And the spectacle of Poor Old Benign GM being picked on by the union and government of Flint, Michigan....I weep for them. I truly do.

You're being intellectually hoodwinked into believing that about the ONLY groups that are on your side--unions--are The Enemy. It is fun to claim that gruops like the AFT are, "terrorist organizations," to quote our incumbent Sec. of Education, and it's even good propaganda. Of course, it's also irresponsible and inaccurate, but what the hell. Much better to keep screaming that your fellow Americans are The Enemy because they disagree with the Powers That Be.

Your workweek is climbing, and has been for years. The cost of education and health care for you and your kids keeps going up. You are living more and more stressed lives, with less and less in terms of job security and benefits. Your real wages are dropping, and have been for years. Your society is becoming more and more rigidly stratified, and you and yours have less and less access to good education. Cuba has a higher literacy rate than we do.

But that is all the unions' fault. It's Michael Moore's fault. It's the feminists' fault, the lesbians' fault, the atheists' fault, the ACLU's fault, the treehuggers' fault, hell, it's probably my damn fault.

You're being hoodwinked, guys.

 

[Rich Parsons]

1. "This unethical mans' "documentaries" are filled with propaganda, lies, innuendoes and staged theatrics."

2. "We don't all walk around so angry like you do."

Whoops, my bad. No personal attacks there. Whatever was I thinking. The mere fact that types like Rush and Savage say exactly the same sorts of things about people they don't like is pure coincidence.

I notice, though, that nobody has yet come up with a fact that Moore got wrong--only claims that he's a creep, or assertions about the rabbit lady's meaning, or unsubstantiated claims that it's all the unions' fault. Why is that? Shouldn't be hard, given that everything's so, "filled with...lies."

You're being hoodwinked, guys. People like the directors of GM couldn't care less about their workers, only about their profits: that's what advanced capitalism is, kids. And the spectacle of Poor Old Benign GM being picked on by the union and government of Flint, Michigan....I weep for them. I truly do.

You're being intellectually hoodwinked into believing that about the ONLY groups that are on your side--unions--are The Enemy. It is fun to claim that gruops like the AFT are, "terrorist organizations," to quote our incumbent Sec. of Education, and it's even good propaganda. Of course, it's also irresponsible and inaccurate, but what the hell. Much better to keep screaming that your fellow Americans are The Enemy because they disagree with the Powers That Be.

Your workweek is climbing, and has been for years. The cost of education and health care for you and your kids keeps going up. You are living more and more stressed lives, with less and less in terms of job security and benefits. Your real wages are dropping, and have been for years. Your society is becoming more and more rigidly stratified, and you and yours have less and less access to good education. Cuba has a higher literacy rate than we do.

But that is all the unions' fault. It's Michael Moore's fault. It's the feminists' fault, the lesbians' fault, the atheists' fault, the ACLU's fault, the treehuggers' fault, hell, it's probably my damn fault.

You're being hoodwinked, guys.

Robert,

I am no mroe hoodwinked then you are.

The Unions have brought about a lot of great ideas and accomplishments. Health care to the average worker, Standardized work weeks, Better working conditions, a way to raise issues of helth and safety, or in my mind lots of good ideas. This is not about the Unions per se.

I also agree that the Corporation GM and other corporations are out to make money. Just take a look at your retirement account or mutual fund and realize that when they do not make money you get upset.

I have a problem with his presentation that he is the one to discover this. He is the one to point out this truth, when it is only a side of a story.

I have a problem with him, when he slinks away from news casts and questions from the audience because he has nothing to wave around and rally people to his flag. The city of Flint and State of Michigan did not honor a renaisance zone set up by the Federal Government. This area was set up to help bring back people and jobs to Flint. The State agreed and supported this site. GM had a site in this zone. They continued to pat there previous agreed upon taxes, yes this got them good press, and was most likely the reason for doing it. Then the City and the State wanted GM and other large companies in the area to no longer have tax breaks. They wanted to have GM pay an inflated rate. Why? Because everyone knows the BIG companies are all full of money. Until you have to buy their products and then you get upset because it cost so much for their products. Should companies pay their fair share? Yes! Should they be responsible to have people working for them who punch in and then leave and expect to get paid? Should they expect to pay a tax rate that no one else is paying? This is like charging someone more money for the same car or house just because they make more than the next guy. Should the corporations be responsible enough to follow the laws and have a safe palce to work? Yes. Should they be responsible to just hire everyone who lives in a 100 miles from the plant as a form of wellfare? No. Micheal Moore did not present the people who sold drugs, nor did he present the people who were upset about not getting a job, yet they never applied. Is it the responsibility of the corporations to go out and just send a check to everyone in the area just because? This was the expectation of many in the Flint Area.

There were baggers at Grocery stores that made $12+ an hour in 1976, and the cashiers made $13 to start and up to $19 an hour. This became the expectation of everyone in the area. That you could just sit back and get paid more than anyone else in the rest of the country. The general population had an unrealistic expectation, in my opinion.

As to Rush and the others, I do not listen to them either and I do not like them either. If any of them made a movie I woudl nto recommend it either based upon the fact that I would believe it to be othing more then rhetoric and propaganda.

With Respect Robert, I have my opinion and you have yours. I expressed mine. I did not tell you, that yours was wrong. I did not try to convince you to change yours. Please, do not try to change mine. I am open minded, and willing to re-consider, yet it will have to be change upon that of Micheal Moore first before I reconsider. So, in the end I did nto try to change you. Please do not try to change me. I was asked for my opinion. I stated it.

:asian: