Fake black belts

[Wing Woo Gar]

I mean why should some Fraud Black Belt get away with taking money of people under false pretences. A Black belt is an award. OK not like a military award but still ....

Well you do get a participation ribbon for just being in theater right?

 

[drop bear]

But again, and this is my point, it's ON ME to do this. Not the law. Not a government agency. Some parents do not care, and if they don't, why is this anyone else's problem?

If other was any other service it would be a community problem.

If you went to a bar, ordered a beer and did not get beer. You could sue that bar. (Sort of)

If you got a medicine and that medicine did not work. The doctor can be arrested. Especially if the doctor just decided to be a doctor without all the hassle of being qualified.

 

[drop bear]

Whoa! Stolen valor is far worse! I mean I pretend to teach martial arts several times a week, but I don’t have a black belt and I don’t teach kids so…

Is there financial gain from stolen valour?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

prosecute them & close them down

people from their style & a valid organisation. really that simple.

yes true...but my problem is if you´re fooling others with your wisdom...or lack off.



I doubt it. are you one of these factory Black Belts?

What if there isn’t an organization? What if I’m really good at fooling people? So what if I like hitting other people’s children with that nice black belt I bought at yard sale? You foreigners can’t control me!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sorry, but there is simply no equivalency between Stolen Valor and claiming to be a "black belt" in something.

I'm not sure you're actually worked up about this at all. I think you're just trying to get other people worked up about it. Frankly, it really isn't that big a deal.

I’m all worked up.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Is there financial gain from stolen valour?

Yes people collect money for Veterans but the money goes in their pockets. Pretending to be ex military or an Organisation

 

[Jimmythebull]

I’m all worked up.

Maybe a cold shower might help

 

[Oily Dragon]

Truth be told, it is against the law (in the US) to advertise something that is false, commercially. That includes fake lineages, belts, etc.

But the burden is on someone paying another to make a claim that the person accepting the money accepted it under false pretenses, i.e. fraud.

Truth In Advertising

www.ftc.gov

There are ways to report any business owner in America who is selling martial arts services. But, proving the advertiser is actually lying can be difficult given the chaotic webwork of martial arts lineages and pedigrees.

So yeah, you can't go around advertising that you trained with Bruce Lee (unless you did), and offer classes for cash, or someone can easily sic the FTC on your butt (a scam is a scam).

But Jimmy Lee is not committing fraud when selling this book (one of the best on Wing Chun I've ever owned). Bruce Lee practically wrote the whole thing, but gave credit to Jimmy (gymnast, wrestler, boxer, before he became Bruce's student in WC and JKD).

 

[Jimmythebull]

Truth be told, it is against the law (in the US) to advertise something that is false, commercially. That includes fake lineages, belts, etc.

But the burden is on someone paying another to make a claim that the person accepting the money accepted it under false pretenses, i.e. fraud.

Truth In Advertising

www.ftc.gov

There are ways to report any business owner in America who is selling martial arts services. But, proving the advertiser is actually lying can be difficult given the chaotic webwork of martial arts lineages and pedigrees.

So yeah, you can't go around advertising that you trained with Bruce Lee, and offer classes for cash, or someone can easily sic the FTC on your butt.

But Jimmy Lee is not committing fraud when selling this book (one of the best on Wing Chun I've ever owned). Bruce Lee practically wrote the whole thing, but gave credit to Jimmy (gymnast, wrestler, boxer, before he became Bruce's student in WC and JKD).

View attachment 28971

Never read it but I remember seeing it years ago.

 

[lklawson]

If other was any other service it would be a community problem.

If you went to a bar, ordered a beer and did not get beer. You could sue that bar. (Sort of)

If you got a medicine and that medicine did not work. The doctor can be arrested. Especially if the doctor just decided to be a doctor without all the hassle of being qualified.

Or you paid for landscaping and you didn't like the bushes he put in?

Or you paid an artist to do a portrait of you but you though it made you look fat.

Or you asked a chef to make you an exotic dish you'd never tried before and then decided you didn't like how it tastes.

You could totally sue. You wouldn't win, but you could sue.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Is there financial gain from stolen valour?

Good question. If they use it to gain public office I guess that counts.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Maybe a cold shower might help

Or some Duran Duran.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

…but then I need a nap and a sandwich.

 

[lklawson]

Truth be told, it is against the law (in the US) to advertise something that is false, commercially. That includes fake lineages, belts, etc.

Lineages, maybe (but probably impossible to win). Belts, no. It is an accepted fact that anyone can claim their own system and award themselves a "belt"

There are ways to report any business owner in America who is selling martial arts services.

The Better Business is pretty worthless.

But, proving the advertiser is actually lying can be difficult given the chaotic webwork of martial arts lineages and pedigrees.

Disputed lineages and lineage holders is a standard part of martial arts.

So yeah, you can't go around advertising that you trained with Bruce Lee (unless you did), and offer classes for cash, or someone can easily sic the FTC on your butt (a scam is a scam).

Easily? No. In fact, they may not even be interested in pursuing your complaint.

Complaintant: "That guy told me he trained with Bruce Lee and I paid him to teach me martial arts!"
FTC: "And did he teach you martial arts?"
Complaintant: "Well, yes, but his martial art sucks and he actually just had lunch once with a guy name 'Bruce Li'."
FTC: "Yeah, we'll get back to you on this..."

 

[Oily Dragon]

Lineages, maybe (but probably impossible to win). Belts, no. It is an accepted fact that anyone can claim their own system and award themselves a "belt"

It depends on each case.

Anybody can give themselves a belt. But if you claim so-and-so did, because so-and-so is famous, and someone can prove you're lying, your business can be subject to action. People in BJJ make legal threats to each other a lot when they claim so-and-so promoted them, opened a school, and immediately come under fire. So it's hard to get away with "belt fraud" more than ever today.

Anybody can sue anyone in civil court for damages too. The court might decide either way, but in small claims/consumer affairs, they're going to typically side with the consumer, IF the vendors claims are not easily verifiable.

The Better Business is pretty worthless.

The BBB is a pretty useful resource for looking up a business' history and claims against their service, but FTC enforces small business truth-in-advertising.

Easily? No. In fact, they may not even be interested in pursuing your complaint.

My personal history with the FTC has been pretty successful, YMMV. In fact, handing a deceitful business owner your own personal FTC claim # is a GREAT way to get your money back from anybody you think defrauded you.

Complaintant: "That guy told me he trained with Bruce Lee and I paid him to teach me martial arts!"
FTC: "And did he teach you martial arts?"
Complaintant: "Well, yes, but his martial art sucks and he actually just had lunch once with a guy name 'Bruce Li'."
FTC: "Yeah, we'll get back to you on this..."

That's not how it works though. It's not like 911. There's a case file recorded for every claim made, and it stays there forever. NO martial arts business wants to rack up a lot of fraud related reports.

Although anybody can go to the cops and claim someone stole their money. If the cops decide it's not a criminal thing, they direct you to the proper civil authorities (not the BBB). Typically the FTC and state/local community business advocates can help out. No local community wants a scam artist selling things in town, especially to kids.

Small business fraud covers anything a small business sells, and any advertising claims made. So there is no "Carve-out" for martial arts schools, if anything claims against them are probably rare, but shouldn't be.

Part of the issue is the more "snakeoil" types in the MA business have established really byzantine credibility. Frauds back up each other, etc. Some of these people are basically untouchable, compared to other fly-by-night schools run by creeps.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Not making fun of TKD but @ 2:36 how the hell is this guy a black belt? I mean the guy before him was terrible and even the people filming were making remarks. Even the way his "instructor " Held his face under a Board. At first I thought maybe the guy was a bit handicapped or something but after watching his instructor at the start I'm not so sure

 

[Jimmythebull]

Or some Duran Duran.

 

[lklawson]

It depends on each case.

Anybody can give themselves a belt. But if you claim so-and-so did, because so-and-so is famous, and someone can prove you're lying, your business can be subject to action. People in BJJ make legal threats to each other a lot when they claim so-and-so promoted them, opened a school, and immediately come under fire. So it's hard to get away with "belt fraud" more than ever today.

And the FTC does nothing about it. It's all the consumers doing their research.

Anybody can sue anyone in civil court for damages too. The court might decide either way, but in small claims/consumer affairs, they're going to typically side with the consumer, IF the vendors claims are not easily verifiable.

Which isn't the FTC.

The BBB is a pretty useful resource for looking up a business' history and claims against their service, but FTC enforces small business truth-in-advertising.

Pft. Skeezy business owners fold the biz and start a new one with a different name and use variations of their own name, or even put it in someone else's name. I've seen it happen. Better Business is not all that useful for finding a skeezy biz. It's useful, sometimes, to check a biz that has a long history and few complaints but when slimy owners start getting complaints they just change names.

That's not how it works though. It's not like 911. There's a case file recorded for every claim made, and it stays there forever. NO martial arts business wants to rack up a lot of fraud related reports.

And then they close shop, open in a new location with a different name.

Although anybody can go to the cops and claim someone stole their money. If the cops decide it's not a criminal thing, they direct you to the proper civil authorities (not the BBB). Typically the FTC and state/local community business advocates can help out. No local community wants a scam artist selling things in town, especially to kids.

And there's not much they can do to stop it.

Small business fraud covers anything a small business sells, and any advertising claims made. So there is no "Carve-out" for martial arts schools, if anything claims against them are probably rare, but shouldn't be.

Part of the issue is the more "snakeoil" types in the MA business have established really byzantine credibility. Frauds back up each other, etc. Some of these people are basically untouchable, compared to other fly-by-night schools run by creeps.

No, the problem in this case is there's no legal definition of "good martial arts" or "useful self defense." Linages are a legal minefield of claims and counter claims for most martial arts and the only reliable way to get a fraud ruling is to prove you paid for classes or specific services which were never actually delivered. Claiming fraud based on the claim of a "fake black belt" is not going to get you where you want to go.

 

[Jimmythebull]

Claiming fraud based on the claim of a "fake black belt" is not going to get you where you want to go.

I would say if you were caused injury or death due to his/her training then certainly you can sue them if alive(or family members) If a fake driving instructor taught you to drive & you killed someone..is that OK?

And there's not much they can do to stop it.

in your opinion.

And then they close shop, open in a new location with a different name.

really ...you are well informed. what was your name , style again?

Pft. Skeezy business owners fold the biz and start a new one with a different name and use variations of their own name, or even put it in someone else's name. I've seen it happen.

OK

And the FTC does nothing about it. It's all the consumers doing their research.

are you a representive of this organisation? if so can you prove this & your claims?

 

[tkdroamer]

I would say if you were caused injury or death due to his/her training then certainly you can sue them if alive(or family members) If a fake driving instructor taught you to drive & you killed someone..is that OK?

in your opinion.

really ...you are well informed. what was your name , style again?

This goes back to there being zero regulatory control for holding a black belt. Or being a driving instructor after a one-day seminar as far as I know.