FACT VS FICTION

[Frank Dux]

Is there a reason why you are posting this? The supposed purpose of this thread is to flush out fact vs fiction. However while a belief about compassion would be a fiction, I have never heard anyone profess this concept in my 35 years of MA. So it would appear that the fiction is irrelevant. Can you point out who believes this. They are your words and the exact wording is critical in this instance.

THere exist feel good schools of martial arts that teach you can control someone using will power and chi -- e.g. no touch knockouts. They also profess a philosophy of you can end a fight with just a warm hug and a smile… I kid you not. This is what these schools teach.

 

[Frank Dux]

Because of course the real ninjas are making such a great impact on martial arts that we would need to separate the fakes.

Well now we are getting into the sticky territory of whether Martial Arts should evolve or stay "pure", which is a topic that has occurred on this forum many times with no decisive conclusion. What I will say is that our perception of what is possible is constantly changing. In the words of Arthur C Clarke "magic is just science that we don't understand yet". When the mechanics of levers and pulleys were discovered I'm sure a lot of people thought it was magic, when in fact there is a perfectly good scientific explanation that a lot of people understand today.

Fighting has had similar mysticism surrounding it. Being able to use a large person's size and strength against them has been present in Martial Arts for centuries, but it's only recently that we fully understand how it happens thanks to advances in physics and biomechanics. Magic and mysticism turns into science.

I agree with your assessment.

 

[Frank Dux]

Frank Dux is a choreographer with a sketchy reputation. You can read threads about him and his system in the "Horror Stories" and "Great Debate" sub-forums. I haven't personally checked, but I'm sure there will be a thread or two about him on Bullshido as well.

My reputation is far from being sketchy. Like most all celebrities we find ourselves placed under attack by those who make money from FAKE NEWS and those who exploit unfair business practices.

I exposed Bullshido as being a prime example of Fraudsters arbitrarily calling others frauds as this video attached exemplifies my point -- manufacturing evidence as well as knowingly making use of it. Attributing statements to myself and others that were never made in order to hold people up to ridicule.

Everyone who sees this walks away laughing at them. They are the farthest thing from being part of the real martial arts community.

Follow these links posted on YouTube by Shaolin Concepts:

 

[Frank Dux]

FACT vs FICTION: ANOTHER TOPIC OF DISCUSSION

FICTION: Fights Only End When One Combatant Kills the Other

This myth I have found is most commonly spread by a certain breed of macho martial artist. You know, the kind that is obsessed with showing off how “deadly” he is. Every technique is either deadly or maiming, and “nothing else works in the street.” Anything that isn’t heavily destructive to the opponent is “useless” and “not worth your time to learn.” They would have you believe that the only way to end a fight is to brutally maim your opponent, kill him painfully, and disfigure the corpse.

FACT: We must determine the threat level and correspond accordingly. My belief it is the spirit of the opponent that must be defeated and that is when the fight ends; when the aggressor no longer has the will to continue to fight.

Killing your opponent efficiently and quickly is the goal of martial arts, how ere, as the training is meant to prepare a person for military lethal engagements. Maiming and dismembering in a civilian setting works just as well. But quite often it’s more than possible to neutralize a threat with non lethal means if you train regularly and for that outcome. This is where MMA training has an advantage over perfecting those kill or be killed traditional or modern combative techniques.

Most self defense situations do not have to escalate in fights to the death.

Far more likely you find yourself at a bar trying to control a drunk friend who’s gotten a bit wild or fending off someone pissed at the world who’s had a bit too much to drink and wants to start something.

End that confrontation by maiming or killing that poor SOB and be prepared for the high cost of defense lawyer and time at the county jail.

Ending a fight without killing or maiming your opponent is certainly much harder. It definitely takes more training and more skill to do so successfully and without putting yourself in undue danger. But possible, and for serious students in the modern age it’s definitely worth striving for versus investing time in perfecting obsolete alleged killing techniques.

 

[hoshin1600]

THere exist feel good schools of martial arts that teach you can control someone using will power and chi -- e.g. no touch knockouts. They also profess a philosophy of you can end a fight with just a warm hug and a smile… I kid you not. This is what these schools teach.

ok i was going to reply to this post ,,but no.
Frank you are slowly losing any credibility that you had.
your posts are non sense. do you think you are enlightening us all with these jems of wisdom?
these are not real issues.

FACT: there are no green people that live in the center of the earth!!!!!
some people think that there is a tribe of pigmy people that live in the center of the earth ,, this is not true.

nonsense issues.

 

[Frank Dux]

ok i was going to reply to this post ,,but no.
Frank you are slowly losing any credibility that you had.
your posts are non sense. do you think you are enlightening us all with these jems of wisdom?
these are not real issues.

FACT: there are no green people that live in the center of the earth!!!!!
some people think that there is a tribe of pigmy people that live in the center of the earth ,, this is not true.

nonsense issues.

My my aren't we being condescending. This is a discussion where you can affirm you agree the given FICTION statement is a martial art myth or defend it and say there is indeed something behind it that is not perceptible by me. Because you have not encountered someone teaching this myth does not mean I or others have not. It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement. Since no one has challenged my opinions and observations. Instead, you attempt to challenge me personally.

 

[hoshin1600]

It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement. Since no one has challenged my opinions and observations. Instead, you attempt to challenge me personally.

actually i am challenging your opinions and observations. your posts so far are non issues. the fact is ...your posting on a web sight that has maybe 50 regular members who post. your posts are not bringing anything new to the table. your myths are obvious to us. now if you want to present it in an original way with a deeper level of nuance then fine, im all on board. but the method your using of the Fact VS Fiction is white belt level thinking. i think the posters here are better than that. i am not trying to be argumentitive about it but your post is better suited to the naive beginners or even people outside of MA. i will assume that you have been training for a long time based on your identity. i would think your level of experience and understanding would be better than a 10 year old.
lets pass on trying to dispel basic myths, we all know there are no green people living at the center of the earth.

 

[CB Jones]

FACT: there are no green people that live in the center of the earth!!!!!
some people think that there is a tribe of pigmy people that live in the center of the earth ,, this is not true.

Of course not since the world is flat....that is just silly. There are Yetis living on the ice wall though.

 

[JR 137]

Well again, my intent wasn't to insult you or anyone else but close the door to trade libel.

First off, do not compare apples to oranges here. These tournaments are not run like a Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc tournament in their format. Double elimination tournaments can go as long as 18 months before winner is declared and title awarded… like how Tennis Tours are run or Poker.

Then there is the format of fighting sixty matches period that can be spread out over two to three days. The determining decision is not determined by way of elimination but by the way in which what competitor wins the most matches and scores higher compared to his opponent whom one may not even face off against.

I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction.

I honestly don’t understand what you mean. The only way I can see this being possible is kind of like a car racing circuit...

You fight a lot of people, as does everyone else. This can be spread over a long period of time (several weeks-months). The person who’s got the most wins/points/etc. is declared the winner?

I’m not a car racing guy at all, but I believe they have a series of races, and there’s a champion named at the end of the season based on points such as number of first, second, etc. place finishes in the individual races.

Tennis tournaments are set up quite simply - to get into a pro championship tournament like Wimbledon, you have to compete at so many lesser tournaments and accumulate enough wins/places to qualify. Once you’ve done that, it’s either a single or double elimination tournament where people are eliminated until there’s one left. This doesn’t seem like what you’re saying, even though you said they’re similar. Same as a poker tournament - there’s multiple tables going on, and the top people at each table move on to another table, over and over until one person remains. Nothing like what you’re describing.

The way you describe it seems like a series championship rather than a tournament. Just about everyone views a tournament as win and advance and you’re out after a number of losses. Many people raise doubts of your claim because your use of the term tournament. People don’t raise significant doubts of Oyama’s 100 man kumite claim because the criteria is clearly laid out. If UNC claimed 20 consecutive NCAA Basketball Tournament wins, it’s easy to figure out how - they would’ve had to win the tournament a few times in a row.

I’m not saying you’re lying, I’m just trying to understand the logistics of your tournament. Can you be more specific beyond “its like a tennis or poker tournament?” And approximately how many competitors were in the tournament, other than “a lot?” Such as “I had to fight all 60 people over the course of 1 year, and I was declared the winner because I had the most points from wins, KOs, least losses, etc.

Again, no accusations on my end. I’m just interested in how your tournament works. You’re a teacher, I’m a student. If you can break down how your tournament works instead of “it’s like a x-event” I’d learn. Poking around the internet, I’m definitely not the only one who’s drawing a blank about how 56 consecutive KOs in a single tournament is possible.

Edit: should I start another thread to not sidetrack this one?

 

[skribs]

I've never heard of a single martial arts school who says you can avoid every fight. I've also never heard of a martial arts school that says you must kill your opponent.

My guess is you're posting new "fictions" to try to get off the other topic in the thread.

Well again, my intent wasn't to insult you or anyone else but close the door to trade libel.

First off, do not compare apples to oranges here. These tournaments are not run like a Kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc tournament in their format. Double elimination tournaments can go as long as 18 months before winner is declared and title awarded… like how Tennis Tours are run or Poker.

Then there is the format of fighting sixty matches period that can be spread out over two to three days. The determining decision is not determined by way of elimination but by the way in which what competitor wins the most matches and scores higher compared to his opponent whom one may not even face off against.

I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction.

Tennis tournaments take place over a few weeks, and poker tournaments over a few hours. I've never heard of a tournament lasting 18 months. That sounds more like a season in a sport than a tournament, especially since record is concerned. You say it's not based on elimination, but based on the way you win and how you win. So did you knock out 56 people? Or did you just win 56 matches in a double elimination tournament? What was the time period in which this took place?

My my aren't we being condescending. This is a discussion where you can affirm you agree the given FICTION statement is a martial art myth or defend it and say there is indeed something behind it that is not perceptible by me. Because you have not encountered someone teaching this myth does not mean I or others have not. It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement. Since no one has challenged my opinions and observations. Instead, you attempt to challenge me personally.

Wow. This is your most arrogant post yet. "It seems based on my arguments others are in agreement." What? You're using your own words to say that others agree with you? My goodness.

 

[hoshin1600]

@Frank Dux
actually there is something you could help me understand as fact or fiction for me.
as was already stated you studied Koga Yamabushi ryu. so the Yamabushi of koga were ...."They follow the Shugendō doctrine, an integration of mainly esoteric Buddhism of the Shingon sect,"
Yamabushi - Wikipedia

so my understanding is that the koga Yamabushi were of a branch of the Tachikawa-Ryu of the Shingon sect. but were also followers of the Buddhist tradition of a male only inclusion (women were not originally allowed to practice Buddhism until Ananda) these male only practitioners of Tachikawa Ryu were known as Okama. this would make sense because the Yamabushi were wondering mountain warriors. so am i correct in assuming the branch of Ninjutsu you studied comes from this lineage? and were there women in the dojo at the time you studied or did they still follow the old traditions of men only??

 

[Finlay]

As an aside

Mr. Dux.

Your gi seems to be quite unique in its design. Can you explain the additional padding round the shoulders. It would see to provide extra holds while grappling

Is there any practical reason for havin these?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

FACT vs FICTION: ANOTHER TOPIC OF DISCUSSION

FICTION: Fights Only End When One Combatant Kills the Other

This myth I have found is most commonly spread by a certain breed of macho martial artist. You know, the kind that is obsessed with showing off how “deadly” he is. Every technique is either deadly or maiming, and “nothing else works in the street.” Anything that isn’t heavily destructive to the opponent is “useless” and “not worth your time to learn.” They would have you believe that the only way to end a fight is to brutally maim your opponent, kill him painfully, and disfigure the corpse.

FACT: We must determine the threat level and correspond accordingly. My belief it is the spirit of the opponent that must be defeated and that is when the fight ends; when the aggressor no longer has the will to continue to fight.

Killing your opponent efficiently and quickly is the goal of martial arts, how ere, as the training is meant to prepare a person for military lethal engagements. Maiming and dismembering in a civilian setting works just as well. But quite often it’s more than possible to neutralize a threat with non lethal means if you train regularly and for that outcome. This is where MMA training has an advantage over perfecting those kill or be killed traditional or modern combative techniques.

Most self defense situations do not have to escalate in fights to the death.

Far more likely you find yourself at a bar trying to control a drunk friend who’s gotten a bit wild or fending off someone pissed at the world who’s had a bit too much to drink and wants to start something.

End that confrontation by maiming or killing that poor SOB and be prepared for the high cost of defense lawyer and time at the county jail.

Ending a fight without killing or maiming your opponent is certainly much harder. It definitely takes more training and more skill to do so successfully and without putting yourself in undue danger. But possible, and for serious students in the modern age it’s definitely worth striving for versus investing time in perfecting obsolete alleged killing techniques.

You know, I had a conversation about this very topic awhile ago with someone else on here. They were of the opinion that if someone attacks them, they should severely harm or even kill the attacker rather than simply subduing them. Their reasoning was if you only subdue an attacker without injuring them, they could very well return with either a gun or more people to attack you again. They didn't want to take that risk and so said they would choose to use excessive force right off the bat. While I can sort of see their logic, you have to take into account the law aspects of this. Excessive force in a self-defence scenario is going to get you into a lot of trouble regardless of what the attacker was doing.

Even in a historical context where severe injury and death was more likely, most of the time you didn't need to kill your opponent to win. On the battlefield, 1 deep cut to the body, or the dismemberment of a limb was more than enough to render someone helpless for the rest of the battle. There was no need to finish off your opponent straight away, and most of the time in a chaotic battle you didn't get a chance to anyway. You sliced through an opponent and then moved onto the next 1 until either you were cut down or there were no enemies left to fight. Obviously 1v1 duels worked slightly differently, but the principle still applied since there was limited medical aid and no kind of state welfare available. If you lost your arm during a fight chances were you would either die from the immediate blood loss, or the wound would get infected and you would die from that. If you did survive you probably wouldn't be able to work and would be cast aside by society to starve to death.

 

[Buka]

If the will "The REAL Frank Dux" stand up" from the old TV Show Whats My LIne not being the issue, I, raise ANOTHER FICTION VS. FACT DISCUSSION POINT.

Don't mean to nitpick here, but "Will the REAL so and so please stand up" is from the game show "To Tell The Truth", not "What's my Line?"

Irony noted.

 

[Frank Dux]

actually i am challenging your opinions and observations. your posts so far are non issues. the fact is ...your posting on a web sight that has maybe 50 regular members who post. your posts are not bringing anything new to the table. your myths are obvious to us. now if you want to present it in an original way with a deeper level of nuance then fine, im all on board. but the method your using of the Fact VS Fiction is white belt level thinking. i think the posters here are better than that. i am not trying to be argumentitive about it but your post is better suited to the naive beginners or even people outside of MA. i will assume that you have been training for a long time based on your identity. i would think your level of experience and understanding would be better than a 10 year old.
lets pass on trying to dispel basic myths, we all know there are no green people living at the center of the earth.

Wow… does the word hubris register. Hoshin I often wonder why people hide behind an alias and I think your reasons are self evident when your commentary here is just aimed to slight and dismiss me. It has nothing to do with discussing the REAL issues raised.

Case in point, self professed ninjutsu and kung fu schools in their DVD courses slight MMA training or use the kill or be killed to excuse themselves from not participating in any form of full contact competition. They use the my techniques can't be altered and would kill argument.

They claim to focus on super secret training in maiming and killing vs addressing escalation of force issues in their programs.

I was hoping to address counter arguments after putting forth my own, addressing why I find their words a fiction.

Hoshin you are at best guess probably one of those same folks and being incapable of expanding upon my challenge either by affirming you hold the same view or put forth an argument defending your position, possibly embarrassed by your own prior representations you lash out and attack me instead. Dismiss my argument as an inconsequential statement which betrays to me your true level of understanding and prejudice. Naturally, your own words prove you are the one with nothing new to say.

 

[Encho]

"They claim to focus on super secret training in maiming and killing vs addressing escalation of force issues in their programs"

This coming from a guy who was trained by secret ninja warrior monks.

 

[hoshin1600]

Wow… does the word hubris register. Hoshin I often wonder why people hide behind an alias and I think your reasons are self evident when your commentary here is just aimed to slight and dismiss me. It has nothing to do with discussing the REAL issues raised.

Case in point, self professed ninjutsu and kung fu schools in their DVD courses slight MMA training or use the kill or be killed to excuse themselves from not participating in any form of full contact competition. They use the my techniques can't be altered and would kill argument.

They claim to focus on super secret training in maiming and killing vs addressing escalation of force issues in their programs.

I was hoping to address counter arguments after putting forth my own, addressing why I find their words a fiction.

Hoshin you are at best guess probably one of those same folks and being incapable of expanding upon my challenge either by affirming you hold the same view or put forth an argument defending your position, possibly embarrassed by your own prior representations you lash out and attack me instead. Dismiss my argument as an inconsequential statement which betrays to me your true level of understanding and prejudice. Naturally, your own words prove you are the one with nothing new to say.

i see your missing my point. we all know there are charlatan's out there. this is not news to us. we already were quite aware of the fallacy of no touch knockouts and magic chi balls. the list of these people and their beliefs are endless in absurdity. so the question is ok ...now what ?,,, no one here thinks this is true. what was your point? is there something you wanted to delve into on this? there will be no takers on challenging you on this being true or not so what now..?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

i see your missing my point. we all know there are charlatan's out there. this is not news to us. we already were quite aware of the fallacy of no touch knockouts and magic chi balls. the list of these people and their beliefs are endless in absurdity. so the question is ok ...now what ?,,, no one here thinks this is true. what was your point? is there something you wanted to delve into on this? there will be no takers on challenging you on this being true or not so what now..?

I feel that the term "preaching to the choir" applies very aptly here.

 

[Frank Dux]

actually i am challenging your opinions and observations. your posts so far are non issues. the fact is ...your posting on a web sight that has maybe 50 regular members who post. your posts are not bringing anything new to the table. your myths are obvious to us. now if you want to present it in an original way with a deeper level of nuance then fine, im all on board. but the method your using of the Fact VS Fiction is white belt level thinking. i think the posters here are better than that. i am not trying to be argumentitive about it but your post is better suited to the naive beginners or even people outside of MA. i will assume that you have been training for a long time based on your identity. i would think your level of experience and understanding would be better than a 10 year old.
lets pass on trying to dispel basic myths, we all know there are no green people living at the center of the earth.

Wow… does the word hubris register. Hoshin I often wonder why people hide behind an alias and I think your reasons are self evident when your commentary here is just aimed to slight and dismiss me. It has nothing to do with discussing the REAL issues raised.

Case in point, self professed ninjutsu and kung fu schools in their DVD courses slight MMA training or use the "kill or be killed" claim as an excuse when asked why haven't they or their students participated in any form of full contact competition. They use the old "my techniques can't be altered and would kill" claim as their argument.

Yes, these folks claim to focus on super secret training in maiming and killing vs addressing escalation of force issues in their programs.

I was hoping to address counter arguments after putting forth my own, addressing why I find their words a fiction.

Hoshin you are at best guess probably one of those same macho kill or be killed folks. To be assumed with you proving incapable of expanding upon my statements either by affirming them true and or challenge them and explain why. You more than likely hold the same view I call a fiction.

Its apparent to me that you dismiss the discussion as you are unable to put forth an argument defending your position -- possibly embarrassed by your own prior representations.

To just dismiss my observations as an inconsequential statement betrays to me your true level of understanding and prejudice. Naturally, your own words prove you are on here the one with nothing new to say -- projecting unto me your own 10 year old mindset.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Okayyy...so been off this forum for a while and come back to this...

We're blaming it on your return, then.