Eye gouging thread

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Mr. Mattocks: As a side note, for your knifehand strike (cupping as opposed to ridged) is that a dojo preference or a lineage preference? When speaking/sharing with other IR people they all seemed to do it with more of the ridged hand idea and fingers more straight.

Was about to ask the same question. For a few months, I practiced isshin-ryu(nothing wrong with it, just wasn't the style for me), and I saw the ridged knife hand being taught, as well as an eye poke with the fingers spread out to make up for accuracy (which in my opinion would lead to jamming the rest of the fingers by accident), almost the complete opposite of your rake and cupped ridge. Does it change from dojo to dojo, or was the one I was at an exception, or is yours an exception?

PS:The above was a genuine question, I was not intending any malice towards isshin ryu, or your dojo, or suggesting that either dojo is straying from isshin-ryu.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Was about to ask the same question. For a few months, I practiced isshin-ryu(nothing wrong with it, just wasn't the style for me), and I saw the ridged knife hand being taught, as well as an eye poke with the fingers spread out to make up for accuracy (which in my opinion would lead to jamming the rest of the fingers by accident), almost the complete opposite of your rake and cupped ridge. Does it change from dojo to dojo, or was the one I was at an exception, or is yours an exception?

PS:The above was a genuine question, I was not intending any malice towards isshin ryu, or your dojo, or suggesting that either dojo is straying from isshin-ryu.

Agreed, if it is a rear naked choke then the person probably has grappling skills and knows how to tuck the head to avoid just that thing. Now if it is just a person grabbing you from behind more with the arm around your neck throat and not necessarily knowing what they are doing you stand more of a chance with that counter.

Mr. Mattocks: As a side note, for your knifehand strike (cupping as opposed to ridged) is that a dojo preference or a lineage preference? When speaking/sharing with other IR people they all seemed to do it with more of the ridged hand idea and fingers more straight.

I do not honestly know if the way I was taught to form the hand for a nukite strike is a specific part of Isshin-Ryu, or if it is simply specific to my dojo. I will ask my Sensei. No offense taken at the questions, quite legitimate.

To be clear, we do not have an 'eye raking' attack; I just mentioned that some martial arts do. Not Isshin-Ryu to the best of my knowledge.

As to the nukite hand formation, it was describe to me as this. Imagine drinking water from your cupped hands at a hand pump. That's it. Now, you kind of have to be a country boy to get that reference, because I've seen people do it who didn't grow up drinking from garden hoses and hand-pumped wells, and they cup 'too much' when they cup their hands. It's very slight, very subtle. Farm boys know if you cup your hand too much to drink water, it runs out. You use a very mild cup and bring the water to your face rapidly. This, by the way, is the same way we do the 'brush' in our Wansu kata. Hand is not rigid. Our fingers are together, but not tightly pressed together. Thumb in, of course. Just a natural hand formation, really.



If you want to see exactly how subtle the 'cup' is, straighten your hand out as much as you can. Make it totally flat and rigid. Then try to lay your pinkie finger on top of the ring finger next to it. You probably can't do it, but by the time your pinkie is halfway there, that's the amount of cup we use. It is my understanding that some martial arts ryus use that method to make the actual strike - keeping that pinkie tucked over. We don't do that, but it shows how the hand is supposed to be cupped. Really subtle and easy to mistake for a straight or rigid hand.

 

[DennisBreene]

Depends on what you mean by "effective". In the original thread, the OP was talking specifically about "gouging out the eye" and, frankly, that's pretty damned difficult to do, unless you're in a Kill Bill episode.

On the other hand, such a degree of damage is far from necessary for strikes to the eyes to be effective. Very little contact is required to cause significant amounts of pain, and the eyes are one of those areas that people tend to reflexively guard (often to the point of neglecting their defense of other areas). A flick of the fingers at the eyes will, with very little impact, take a lot of the fight right out of the vast majority of people.

Frankly, I've seen a lot more people with significant orbital fractures than globe injuries.

I agree completely.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Not quite the same thing, but along the lines, we were taught basically a lead hand palm strike, with the meaty part of the hand under the thumb hitting the eye socket. Not any permanent damage (unless you have a bruce lee 6 inch punch) but hurts like hell enough that the person hit puts the hand to cover their eye. If you place that meaty part over your eye, you'll see that it fits in there quite nicely.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not quite the same thing, but along the lines, we were taught basically a lead hand palm strike, with the meaty part of the hand under the thumb hitting the eye socket. Not any permanent damage (unless you have a bruce lee 6 inch punch) but hurts like hell enough that the person hit puts the hand to cover their eye. If you place that meaty part over your eye, you'll see that it fits in there quite nicely.

We call that a 'shote' which means heel palm strike. Useful in lots of places, and for the reason you stated - it fits well.

 

[DennisBreene]

Not exactly 'eye gouging' but...

To my way of thinking, the eyes are a valid target, but not a primary target in most cases. As primates who are historically absolutely dependent upon vision for survival, it is deeply ingrained in our basic instincts to protect our eyes. Most rapid hand movement towards the eyes, or even light contact to the eyes, causes an instant and almost always involuntary reaction. The head jerks back, the hands come up, the eyes close, etc.

This creates opportunities to strike exposed areas that can end a fight. If you happen, in the course of self-defense, to actually disrupt the attacker's vision, all the better.

To me, self-defense requires rapid removal of the ability of the attacker to continue to attack. This can be accomplished in many ways. Creating distance, damaging attacking limbs, removing the ability of the attacker to pursue, and so on. If they cannot see, they cannot fight. Moreover, they won't WANT to fight, they will want to retreat and protect their eyes. Even someone who is very intoxicated or drugged is still hard-wired from primal times to protect their eyes.

So for me, an eye strike, even an incomplete strike, is a very good idea if the opportunity presents itself in a self-defense scenario. But I would not depend upon it to incapacitate or end the fight by itself. If it does, great. If it does not, an instant followup technique using the moment of distraction is the way to go.

Actual gouging of the eyes? I see that in close quarters, perhaps. If both parties are on the ground, maybe, or circumstances such as those. As valid as a gonad grab-and-twist. Although honestly, if you've ever gotten your thumb into your own eye accidentally, you know it's a dull pain, not the instant, sharp, pain of grabbing a handful of skin under the bicep and just squeezing the crap out of it, or the inside of the thigh near the groin with the same grab (not to mention the testicles, always a popular target). That kind of pain gets attention in all but the very drunk or drugged. I suspect I'd still go for an eye poke rather than an eye gouge, though. A fast stiff-fingered jab into the eyes, and prepare for an instant secondary attack based on the reaction to the eye poke.

Just my thoughts as a student.

If you scratch the cornea, which does require beating the blink reflex, the pain is severe and instantaneous. Both eyes close reflexively and tear copiously, so vision is compromized for several minutes. I think multiple fingers increases the chance of a strike to at least one eye. The whip like attack imparts a large amount of energy into the globe, so even if you don't scratch the cornea, you are more likely to traumatize the globe with internal hemorrhage and disruption.

 

[punisher73]

I do not honestly know if the way I was taught to form the hand for a nukite strike is a specific part of Isshin-Ryu, or if it is simply specific to my dojo. I will ask my Sensei. No offense taken at the questions, quite legitimate.

To be clear, we do not have an 'eye raking' attack; I just mentioned that some martial arts do. Not Isshin-Ryu to the best of my knowledge.

As to the nukite hand formation, it was describe to me as this. Imagine drinking water from your cupped hands at a hand pump. That's it. Now, you kind of have to be a country boy to get that reference, because I've seen people do it who didn't grow up drinking from garden hoses and hand-pumped wells, and they cup 'too much' when they cup their hands. It's very slight, very subtle. Farm boys know if you cup your hand too much to drink water, it runs out. You use a very mild cup and bring the water to your face rapidly. This, by the way, is the same way we do the 'brush' in our Wansu kata. Hand is not rigid. Our fingers are together, but not tightly pressed together. Thumb in, of course. Just a natural hand formation, really.

If you want to see exactly how subtle the 'cup' is, straighten your hand out as much as you can. Make it totally flat and rigid. Then try to lay your pinkie finger on top of the ring finger next to it. You probably can't do it, but by the time your pinkie is halfway there, that's the amount of cup we use. It is my understanding that some martial arts ryus use that method to make the actual strike - keeping that pinkie tucked over. We don't do that, but it shows how the hand is supposed to be cupped. Really subtle and easy to mistake for a straight or rigid hand.

Ok, thanks for the description. I understand what you are describing now. At first, I was picturing this shuto formation that is taught in some styles and I had never seen it in IR before.

 

[DennisBreene]

Another one taught in the Hapkido I learned was for front bear hug defense with the arms free. You sudo strike the ribs as you step a little to the right rear, then move your right hand to the middle of the opponent's back to hold him, then strike/push up forcefully on his chin with the open palm of your left hand. Your fingers will fall roughly with two on each side of the opponent's nose, with the tips at the eyes, or just a little above. You push inward forcefully as you rake downward and attempt to fill your fingertips with as much eye/eyelid matter as possible. Fight over, and DennisBreene doesn't like you.

When in close, you may find other opportunities to make the same move against the eyes.

I guess I could be pursueded to get out of bed and come in if it was richous. Actually I'm retired now so it would be some other poor ophthalmologist on the hook.

 

[DennisBreene]

Not quite the same thing, but along the lines, we were taught basically a lead hand palm strike, with the meaty part of the hand under the thumb hitting the eye socket. Not any permanent damage (unless you have a bruce lee 6 inch punch) but hurts like hell enough that the person hit puts the hand to cover their eye. If you place that meaty part over your eye, you'll see that it fits in there quite nicely.

I hate to come off as contrary but if you strike the eye in this fashion with enough force you can cause serious injury. It can result in blow out fracture of the orbit where the thin bone between the eye socket and the sinus breaks out. This can trap orbital tissue and lead to double vision which can sometimes be permanent. The force imparted also rapidly overpressures the globe, distorting it and rupturing intraocular structures. Common injuries are Hyphema (bleeding into the eye), Angle recession with subsequent glaucoma which is often unnoticed and can lead to blindness, and Retinal Detachment where the retina (the membrane lining the back of the eye with all of the visual receptors) is torn and comes off. While surgically repairable in most cases, it can still result in permanent reduction in vision and blindness. In short, there is no safe attack on the eye and if you do attack the eye it should be with the understanding that you risk maiming your assailant. I would put it in the category of strikes that are generally restricted to a fear of serious risk of injury as you may end up defending yourself for a civil suit.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Hell, a semi-trained martial artist wouldn't be able to do what he did. If my eyes started watering after getting hit in them, I don't think I would have the focus to finish without my vision. Very impressed, Tony!

This is just one example of why grappling with your eyes closed is an excellent exercise.

I think one of the reasons I enjoy grappling more than striking is that I have a really strong blink reflex. When I'm boxing against a skilled opponent it takes a real effort of will not to blink or flinch when the punches start coming for my face. When I'm grappling, vision is secondary and I don't get intimidated, even against a tougher opponent.

 

[oftheherd1]

If you scratch the cornea, which does require beating the blink reflex, the pain is severe and instantaneous. Both eyes close reflexively and tear copiously, so vision is compromized for several minutes. I think multiple fingers increases the chance of a strike to at least one eye. The whip like attack imparts a large amount of energy into the globe, so even if you don't scratch the cornea, you are more likely to traumatize the globe with internal hemorrhage and disruption.

The way I was taught was as the neck is pushed back (painful in itself which is why we put one hand behind the back), one actually strikes forward with the fingers by a snapping of the wrist forwards and downwards into the eyes.

 

[elder999]

While surgically repairable in most cases, it can still result in permanent reduction in vision and blindness. In short, there is no safe attack on the eye and if you do attack the eye it should be with the understanding that you risk maiming your assailant. I would put it in the category of strikes that are generally restricted to a fear of serious risk of injury as you may end up defending yourself for a civil suit.

Oh, I guess I should leave those magazines at home when I carry my pistol, then?

The way I was taught was as the neck is pushed back (painful in itself which is why we put one hand behind the back), one actually strikes forward with the fingers by a snapping of the wrist forwards and downwards into the eyes.

The WWII combatives "chin-jab" was/is taught with this sort of follow through-the idea being that if the chin-jab itself doesn't knock him out, your forward drive through the assailant will put him on his butt, blinking......


So, the palm heel strike is followed with a gouge/rake of the eyes, but with all forward momentum that is intended to drive the assailant to the ground...

I miss Carl, sometimes........

 

[Dirty Dog]

The way I was taught was as the neck is pushed back (painful in itself which is why we put one hand behind the back), one actually strikes forward with the fingers by a snapping of the wrist forwards and downwards into the eyes.

I'd consider this an attack that's likely to cause a pretty fair bit of pain, a lot of tearing (both of which make it damned difficult to keep fighting) but unlikely to cause serious injury.

Unless you're trained in the Dreaded Dim Mak, or you're in the aforementioned Kill Bill movie, in which case the lens will seperate from the eye, exploding outwards, causing vitreous to spray out, coating every surface within 10 feet, and possibly becoming a mini-shuriken and lodging in the carotid of your next assailaint, killing him instantly....

 

[DennisBreene]

 

[Tez3]

You know that looks like a mammogram right?

 

[DennisBreene]

I hope not, because it requires a great deal of magnification to see what I just posted. I prefer to think it looks a bit like a pizza.

BTW; Are we the only inmates awake in this asylum?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I hope not, because it requires a great deal of magnification to see what I just posted. I prefer to think it looks a bit like a pizza.

BTW; Are we the only inmates awake in this asylum?

So how much retina DO you put on your pizza?


Tez is in the UK, so it's reasonable for her to be awake right now. I work nights, which isn't exactly reasonable, but it is a reason...

What's your excuse?


I do like the picture, but do you really think you're likely to see a vitreous hemorrhage from the strike as described? The palmheel strike to the chin (batangsohn mokchigi) can have pretty heavy impact (which does not bode well for the the ENT who wishes to sleep through the night...) but with the palmheel on the chin, flicking the fingertips into the eyes isn't, I think, likely to cause that severe an injury. Possible? Sure, there are very few things I'd say are impossible. Hell, you can ski through a revolving door, if we postulate a large enough door and short enough skiis... But not really likely. The worst thing it's likely to cause is a corneal abrassion - painful, but rarely serious.

 

[oftheherd1]

You know that looks like a mammogram right?

It does? Forget that, I'm not a medical person and must learn to keep my thoughts to myself.

 

[oftheherd1]

I'd consider this an attack that's likely to cause a pretty fair bit of pain, a lot of tearing (both of which make it damned difficult to keep fighting) but unlikely to cause serious injury.

Unless you're trained in the Dreaded Dim Mak, or you're in the aforementioned Kill Bill movie, in which case the lens will seperate from the eye, exploding outwards, causing vitreous to spray out, coating every surface within 10 feet, and possibly becoming a mini-shuriken and lodging in the carotid of your next assailaint, killing him instantly....

You know at the next secret society meeting you are going to have to accept the prescribed sanctions for disclosing that to the public! Right?

As pointed out above by Elder and myself, the chin strike alone can cause a lot of pain and even injury. The eye strike depends on how well it can be delivered, but it can cause damage and/or excruciating pain. If the eye strike does no more than cause a lot of tearing, then you are correct that it puts your assailant at a disadvantage.

 

[punisher73]

You know that looks like a mammogram right?

Maybe that's why my eyes are always drawn there. They sense a kindred spirit :lookie: