example tenno kata

[cstanley]

Yes? Ten No Kata was the creation of Funakoshi Ginchin, the 'father' of Shotokan. Is that a question?

No. Funakoshi called it "Ten No Omote." The Ten No to which I am referring is the kata developed by Nagamine and Myagi in the 1930's ('37, I think) that he called Fukyugata Ichi. Many Shito ryu practice it as Ten No, the name given to it by Kuniba and Hayashi. You can find it in Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate Do."

 

[Victor Smith]

Actually in the Karate-Do Koyhan, the Master Text, it is called Ten No Kata in the index as well as Ten No Kata Omote and a two person version Ten no Kata Ura.

Omote meaning 'front' and Ura meaning 'back'. Omote consists of 10 movements meant to be practiced without a partner, and Ura consits of 6 movements meant to be practiced with a partner.

They are explained in greater detail in his 'Karate-Do Nyumon', the Master Introductory Text.

I've practiced and utilized Fukyugata Ichi in an Isshinryu context for 30 years now, but had not seen reference into any Shito-ryu group renaming the kata. Not that I doubt you, it's just as groups keep changing kata, even to the names, meaningful discussion becomes impossible. BTW that was probably the reason it was done, both to obscure origin and make the practice private to the group itself.

None of these groups ever were designed to allow outsiders, such as us, to debate what they're doing.

 

[cstanley]

Actually in the Karate-Do Koyhan, the Master Text, it is called Ten No Kata in the index as well as Ten No Kata Omote and a two person version Ten no Kata Ura.

Omote meaning 'front' and Ura meaning 'back'. Omote consists of 10 movements meant to be practiced without a partner, and Ura consits of 6 movements meant to be practiced with a partner.

They are explained in greater detail in his 'Karate-Do Nyumon', the Master Introductory Text.

I've practiced and utilized Fukyugata Ichi in an Isshinryu context for 30 years now, but had not seen reference into any Shito-ryu group renaming the kata. Not that I doubt you, it's just as groups keep changing kata, even to the names, meaningful discussion becomes impossible. BTW that was probably the reason it was done, both to obscure origin and make the practice private to the group itself.

None of these groups ever were designed to allow outsiders, such as us, to debate what they're doing.

I think you are overstating it a bit. Read up a little on Shito ryu. Most Shito ryu, including Shito kai, Motobu ha, Hokushin, and Hayashi ha have the kata Ten No in their syllabus. There are no traditional Shito groups that "keep changing the kata." Any nuances of difference in the traditional kata among Shito ryu kai are minor and based upon slightly different lineages of the founders. Shogo Kuniba spent several years training with Nagamine as a young man and, doubtless, adopted the kata during that time.

Nothing was done to "obscure origin" or make the practice private to the group. The origins of Ten No are very clear, and it is in a majority of Shito ryu kata requirements.

"Outsiders," as you define yourself, are certainly welcome to train, debate, or whatever. Indeed, what is there to debate about Ten No (Fyukyugata Ichi)?

Speaking of changing kata, the mess Funakoshi (and his followers) made of the Okinawan kata has long been a favorite joke of Shito ryu and other practitioners.

The name Ten No is also given to sword kata in certain ryu, and is not at all uncommon. Perhaps Kuniba used it because he did not want to use the same name as his mentor (Nagamine) for the kata.

 

[Victor Smith]

cstanley,

I certainly am not a Shito-ryu expert, though I know a few on the nets. In fact in my 35+ years I've never met one. Not surprising as arts tend to hang in pockets around the world.

My looking at Shito-ryu always began with Mabuni Kenwa. I even translated a french version of his orignal two books from 1933/34 to understand his initial contributions.

The texts in my library discussing Shito Ryu kata don't have mentino of Ten No Kata.
So I've used an inadequate tool of Google search to look at Shito Ryu kata.
Here is what I see on the quick.

First searching for Shito Ryu kata lists, I find the 'standard' Shito Ryu Kata lists with no Ten No Kata listed:
http://www.genbu-kai.com/katalist.html
http://acpcommunity.acp.edu/facultystaff/moon/Karate/Katalist.htm
http://www.mudgala.com/karate/shito_kata.pdf
http://www.shuriway.co.uk/kata.html
http://tanutech.com/japan/kata.html#Kata Page

Then seraching for Shito Ryu Ten No Kaat I find some Shito Ryu Kata lists with Ten No Kata
http://www.azbudokan.com/Shitoryu Assoc.htm
http://employees.oneonta.edu/davisgb/karate/kata.html
http://ahealthybodymassage.bizland.com/karate1.html

All of which are difficult to decypher. But then I find a Shito Ryu list with Ten No kata and it states: Under Kata of Shito-Ryu: Ten no kata:Kata of the Heavens. A kata of Funakoshi Sensei similar to the basic Fukyu katas of Okinawa.
found here: http://www.angelfire.com/sk/budokai/Katainfo.html

So the issue is one of knowing which sources are the 'right ones'? And not being inside Shito Ryu it's a distinction hard to make.

But it does confirm that there are Shito Ryu groups using the name Ten No Kata, but apparently with different practices in that name than what you practice.

It is a complex world.

Now as to why someone renames the kata, beyond me. It appears Motobu Kenwa didn't do it. On the other hand Funakoshi Ginchin did it, publically expained in his writing.

Why someone renames one kata with a different name, have to be honest, hardly seems worth the effort to my way of thinking. But to each their own. I still maintain all this makes meaningful open discussion very difficult, especially if one throws a name out there and doesn't provide the context. But apparently there is a lot of diversity within the name Shito ryu. Not an uncommon problem in most systems including my own.

As for Funakoshi, I respectfully disagree that he created a mess. One of the absolute best karate-ka I've trained with is a Shotokan practitioner whose father trained at the Naval Academy in the 30's. But then the Shotokan he practices does not match the descriptions of other Shotokan groups in the least.

Perhaps the question about Funakoshi's art has nothing to do with Funakoshi....hmmm.

 

[cstanley]

cstanley,

I certainly am not a Shito-ryu expert, though I know a few on the nets. In fact in my 35+ years I've never met one. Not surprising as arts tend to hang in pockets around the world.

My looking at Shito-ryu always began with Mabuni Kenwa. I even translated a french version of his orignal two books from 1933/34 to understand his initial contributions.

The texts in my library discussing Shito Ryu kata don't have mentino of Ten No Kata.
So I've used an inadequate tool of Google search to look at Shito Ryu kata.
Here is what I see on the quick.

First searching for Shito Ryu kata lists, I find the 'standard' Shito Ryu Kata lists with no Ten No Kata listed:
http://www.genbu-kai.com/katalist.html
http://acpcommunity.acp.edu/facultystaff/moon/Karate/Katalist.htm
http://www.mudgala.com/karate/shito_kata.pdf
http://www.shuriway.co.uk/kata.html
http://tanutech.com/japan/kata.html#Kata Page

Then seraching for Shito Ryu Ten No Kaat I find some Shito Ryu Kata lists with Ten No Kata
http://www.azbudokan.com/Shitoryu Assoc.htm
http://employees.oneonta.edu/davisgb/karate/kata.html
http://ahealthybodymassage.bizland.com/karate1.html

All of which are difficult to decypher. But then I find a Shito Ryu list with Ten No kata and it states: Under Kata of Shito-Ryu: Ten no kata:Kata of the Heavens. A kata of Funakoshi Sensei similar to the basic Fukyu katas of Okinawa.
found here: http://www.angelfire.com/sk/budokai/Katainfo.html

So the issue is one of knowing which sources are the 'right ones'? And not being inside Shito Ryu it's a distinction hard to make.

But it does confirm that there are Shito Ryu groups using the name Ten No Kata, but apparently with different practices in that name than what you practice.

It is a complex world.

Now as to why someone renames the kata, beyond me. It appears Motobu Kenwa didn't do it. On the other hand Funakoshi Ginchin did it, publically expained in his writing.

Why someone renames one kata with a different name, have to be honest, hardly seems worth the effort to my way of thinking. But to each their own. I still maintain all this makes meaningful open discussion very difficult, especially if one throws a name out there and doesn't provide the context. But apparently there is a lot of diversity within the name Shito ryu. Not an uncommon problem in most systems including my own.

As for Funakoshi, I respectfully disagree that he created a mess. One of the absolute best karate-ka I've trained with is a Shotokan practitioner whose father trained at the Naval Academy in the 30's. But then the Shotokan he practices does not match the descriptions of other Shotokan groups in the least.

Perhaps the question about Funakoshi's art has nothing to do with Funakoshi....hmmm.

The folks at angelfire are incorrect. I have been in Shito ryu for over 30 years and the majority of Shito ryu I know and have trained with know exactly what Ten No is and the kata is remarkably the same across the board. There are, indeed, some fringe groups calling themselves Shito ryu.
For what it is worth, the Butokukai recognizes 4 Shito ryu ha as legitimate: Shito Kai (Mabuni boys), Motobu ha (Kuniba...now passing to his son Kozo), Hayashi ha, and Tani ha. That does not mean that all the others are not true Shito ryu, but it is a good place to start.

RE: Funakoshi, Shotokan, etc. I do not disagree that Shotokan practitioners are quality karateka. Two of my very best dan came to me as shodan in Shotokan. They are now godan and I have managed to erase all the Shotokan traces from their kata. :cheers: Seriously, over the years I have received a number of Shotokan transfers and I have found all of them to have strong fundamentals and a strong spirit. However, the Shotokan kata are altered versions of the Okinawan kata. Much has been lost in the way of subtlety, bunkai, and overall spirit of the kata. I enjoy watching the lights go in in the Shotokan students' heads when they learn our kata.

I have great respect for what Funakoshi did in terms of bringing karate to the public. But, I do not revere him as some do. Others in Okinawa (Motobu for one) had far more knowledge and were more skilled than Funakoshi. However, had Funakoshi not done what he did, you and I may well not be having this discussion.

 

[harleyt26]

Victor Smith sensei,embarassingly I was a member of that angelfire group that claims Shito ryu roots(NKKF).It is more closely related to Shotokai.The head of that group has himself high on a pedestal and keeps his students like mushrooms(in the dark).I found the light and escaped several years ago.His Ten No Kata is almost exactly the same as Nagamines Fukyu kata ichi.I do have a video of one of Kuniba's students named Toshio Kaneta performing it and he calls it Ten No Kata.
Tom Hodges

 

[Victor Smith]

Harley,

There is never a question of being embarassed. I too have been part of things that time proved were not correct and also moved on. That's why Google, useful of course, is not a research tool. Garbage in - Garbag out after all. But it is a starting point.

That group sounds like many others I've encountered. Of course the older tradition of keeping things 'secret' lends itself to abuse,too.

Thank you for sharing.