Chris Parker
Grandmaster
You do realise that John will take that as support for his position, assuming I've said something nasty about him, yeah? Oh, this is fun...
Ex-Porn star reads to kids
- Thread starter granfire
- Start date
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
Hey Granfire, if you're not from the Compton elementary school, how would the school(s) in your home town and possibly the parents react to the Compton controversy?
I went back and checked.
She -does- have nice ... eyes.
She -does- have nice ... eyes.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm, that's quite an edit from:
granfire said:
JohnEdward said:Yep, ignorance is bliss.
But more to the point, with John missing most of the arguments against his assumptions, as well as the details that show that his assumptions are not supported by the evidence that he himself provided, I'd be curious as to what he thinks the controversy is at this point in time, and if it's the same as what the rest of those who have seen all parts of the discussion would consider a controversy... hmmm.
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
:cofeespit:
Am waiting for someone to say the old joke, "and nice....assets as well."
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Told you. I'll keep my other recommendations to myself... for now....
So, what, the only people who can read to kids are those with no controversy attached? Sorry, Fred Rogers is dead. And even he had some controversy attached to him...
Again, we come down to the simple fact that a celebrity, even if "only" B-list, cable tv and former porn actress, took some time to go to a school and read to 1st and 3rd graders. And, in response, some folks got their knickers into twists.
It's not like it was Aurora 'the gape' Snow.
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
NO....who said that. The school has to respect those parents that may have objections, by providing parents with an option to opt out. If not than it is irresponsible of the school. It is a matter of educational professionalism given to the parents by the school that attends to their kids. If no option is given, then it is helloooooo Orwell, good bye democracy. It doesn't matter what side of the aisle your sit.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Honestly, JKS quoting part of this has had me go back and look a little closer at what John actually posted.... and, frankly, there are quite a few things that need pointing out to him. So, uh, if he's still listening to anyone, they may want to pass this on?
Right, I kinda addressed this earlier, but to recap, John talking about open mindedness is rather, uh, disingenuous to my ears. Added to that there is a lot of generalisation and vague assumption throughout this entire paragraph, with no real evidence to back any of it up whatsoever. John is saying what his illeducated take on this subject is (he professes to not enjoy such entertainment, "falling asleep" while doing the much needed research and watching a few minutes of one of Sasha's 160+ films, taking that as representative of the entire body of work and industry, it seems...), and that's about it.
But to deal with the next paragraph in more detail....
On paper, agreed. But I have major concerns as to whether or not John can take his own advice here, as frankly, he has yet to demonstrate any such capability.
That's not what comes through in your posts, though...
This is what I mean when I talk about John's lack of education in this area. Porn stars have been increasingly mainstream since the late 90's when companies like Vivid started having their contract stars appearing as guest hosts on "E", as well as making appearances in Guitar World as models along with the annual "Buyers Guide. Before that, Playboy magazine was seen as quite a legitimate career move for models, actresses, singers, and other celebrities. This has continued to today, with Lindsay Lohan apparently recently posing for the magazine.
Porn stars make cameos in many music videos (Janine Lindemulder in Blink 182's "What's My Age Again?", as well as appearing on the cover of their album, Bloodhound Gang having a song entitled "The Ballad of Chasey Lain" [described as "the most beautiful woman in porn"], various actresses in a number of Eminem clips, and so on), as well as a number of musicians being married to performers of various ilks.
So "not accepted well"? Maybe not for a family night with the kids... but still hardly the "dirty little secret" of the 70's.
Might be a dirty little secret to you, John, but if you're spending a billion dollars a year, it may be hard to keep it that way.... hell, one of my standard "first date" questions is "who's your favourite porn star?"... and I always get an answer. Then again, maybe I'm just a little more comfortable with this than you are....
My, my, my, uh, no. You might, but the industry, as a whole, doesn't. In fact, the adult industry, as more of a face for the concepts of free speech and censorship issues actually has them more lauded than derided. That's how we get films like "Boogy Nights", "Orgazmo", "The People vs Larry Flynt", the upcoming biopic on Linda Lovelace (the real origin of mainstream acceptance of porn, if we're going to look at this... and that was, what, over 30 years ago?), and more. Additionally, there are a large number of mainstream film makers who are constantly pushing the boundaries, trying to get things more and more real in that way, such as Vincent Gallo's "The Brown Bunny", Michael Winterbottoms "Nine Songs" (a mainstream film that featured actual sex), and so on. Then, of course, there's the film that Sasha starred in as well, "The Girlfriend Experience". You might want to see what all the fuss is about by checking that out, rather than a random scene of a particular sexual act that seems to not work for you... not that you seemed to know what you were looking at.
Pot/kettle, John. And you may want to check your facts before you state such things.
Do you have any idea how concerned the adult industry is about the legality of their films? They have an even bigger issue with piracy than mainstream films, to the point that there is getting to be a huge crackdown on such things. "Free" torent and streaming websites are a huge issue for the industry.
And, seriously, "illegal films"? The genre is legal, John. Deal with it. These vague allusions to "illegal, disgusting, and inhumane acts", honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. That's not the industry, and I might suggest that your prejudices are showing. Again.
No, it's a self-righteous and sanctimonious media, and the "moral watchdogs" with an up-tight concern. Again, your entire contention has been that the parents were not informed, and so far, there has been no evidence to support your contention.
And where in any of this are the concerns of parents not being considered? Seriously, there is no evidence for any of these moral high ground statements you're making.
Again, there is no evidence for your statements... but I don't think you understand what a cult is, frankly. Nor a dictatorship. And, for that matter, dictatorships are fine, I gotta say. It depends on the context, and the situation. A public school? No. My martial arts class? Yep. That's a dictatorship, and make no mistake about it. So trying to paint "dictatorship" as a bad thing is to not understand it either.
You want me to fall over laughing, don't you? "Discussion is good", yet at the same time, you have put numerous people on ignore because they disagreed with you, or, worse, questioned you? And you feel justified in this because you are "fair and civil", and that's why you put myself, Tez, and others on ignore? Seriously? Can we go back to your comment about hypocrisy now?
I honestly don't think it'll have any more effect other than that particular school may get their outside talent agent to check things a little more closely in future, or just get a different agent. Seriously, you're thinking this is much bigger than it is... but as you're not hearing any of the answers as to why it's not what you think it is, you're not going to actually learn, are you?
Right, I kinda addressed this earlier, but to recap, John talking about open mindedness is rather, uh, disingenuous to my ears. Added to that there is a lot of generalisation and vague assumption throughout this entire paragraph, with no real evidence to back any of it up whatsoever. John is saying what his illeducated take on this subject is (he professes to not enjoy such entertainment, "falling asleep" while doing the much needed research and watching a few minutes of one of Sasha's 160+ films, taking that as representative of the entire body of work and industry, it seems...), and that's about it.
But to deal with the next paragraph in more detail....
On paper, agreed. But I have major concerns as to whether or not John can take his own advice here, as frankly, he has yet to demonstrate any such capability.
That's not what comes through in your posts, though...
This is what I mean when I talk about John's lack of education in this area. Porn stars have been increasingly mainstream since the late 90's when companies like Vivid started having their contract stars appearing as guest hosts on "E", as well as making appearances in Guitar World as models along with the annual "Buyers Guide. Before that, Playboy magazine was seen as quite a legitimate career move for models, actresses, singers, and other celebrities. This has continued to today, with Lindsay Lohan apparently recently posing for the magazine.
Porn stars make cameos in many music videos (Janine Lindemulder in Blink 182's "What's My Age Again?", as well as appearing on the cover of their album, Bloodhound Gang having a song entitled "The Ballad of Chasey Lain" [described as "the most beautiful woman in porn"], various actresses in a number of Eminem clips, and so on), as well as a number of musicians being married to performers of various ilks.
So "not accepted well"? Maybe not for a family night with the kids... but still hardly the "dirty little secret" of the 70's.
Might be a dirty little secret to you, John, but if you're spending a billion dollars a year, it may be hard to keep it that way.... hell, one of my standard "first date" questions is "who's your favourite porn star?"... and I always get an answer. Then again, maybe I'm just a little more comfortable with this than you are....
My, my, my, uh, no. You might, but the industry, as a whole, doesn't. In fact, the adult industry, as more of a face for the concepts of free speech and censorship issues actually has them more lauded than derided. That's how we get films like "Boogy Nights", "Orgazmo", "The People vs Larry Flynt", the upcoming biopic on Linda Lovelace (the real origin of mainstream acceptance of porn, if we're going to look at this... and that was, what, over 30 years ago?), and more. Additionally, there are a large number of mainstream film makers who are constantly pushing the boundaries, trying to get things more and more real in that way, such as Vincent Gallo's "The Brown Bunny", Michael Winterbottoms "Nine Songs" (a mainstream film that featured actual sex), and so on. Then, of course, there's the film that Sasha starred in as well, "The Girlfriend Experience". You might want to see what all the fuss is about by checking that out, rather than a random scene of a particular sexual act that seems to not work for you... not that you seemed to know what you were looking at.
Pot/kettle, John. And you may want to check your facts before you state such things.
Do you have any idea how concerned the adult industry is about the legality of their films? They have an even bigger issue with piracy than mainstream films, to the point that there is getting to be a huge crackdown on such things. "Free" torent and streaming websites are a huge issue for the industry.
And, seriously, "illegal films"? The genre is legal, John. Deal with it. These vague allusions to "illegal, disgusting, and inhumane acts", honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. That's not the industry, and I might suggest that your prejudices are showing. Again.
No, it's a self-righteous and sanctimonious media, and the "moral watchdogs" with an up-tight concern. Again, your entire contention has been that the parents were not informed, and so far, there has been no evidence to support your contention.
And where in any of this are the concerns of parents not being considered? Seriously, there is no evidence for any of these moral high ground statements you're making.
Again, there is no evidence for your statements... but I don't think you understand what a cult is, frankly. Nor a dictatorship. And, for that matter, dictatorships are fine, I gotta say. It depends on the context, and the situation. A public school? No. My martial arts class? Yep. That's a dictatorship, and make no mistake about it. So trying to paint "dictatorship" as a bad thing is to not understand it either.
You want me to fall over laughing, don't you? "Discussion is good", yet at the same time, you have put numerous people on ignore because they disagreed with you, or, worse, questioned you? And you feel justified in this because you are "fair and civil", and that's why you put myself, Tez, and others on ignore? Seriously? Can we go back to your comment about hypocrisy now?
I honestly don't think it'll have any more effect other than that particular school may get their outside talent agent to check things a little more closely in future, or just get a different agent. Seriously, you're thinking this is much bigger than it is... but as you're not hearing any of the answers as to why it's not what you think it is, you're not going to actually learn, are you?
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Sigh.. there is no support for your base contention, and frankly, John, the whole "hello Orwell, good bye democracy" thing is a bit overblown, don't you think? And no, it doesn't matter what side of the aisle you sit when you only look at the pews on your side....
JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
The National Education Association’s (NEA) and their 'Read Across America' program steering clear of associating with Ms.Grey saying it was the school and the school districts idea to have her read in a largely Latino school of mostly Catholic immigrant parents; having 73% of student population Latino. Sorry to say, I don't think primary or secondary schools will be inviting Ms. Grey, am sure though she will be a big hit in the Adult literacy programs. :lol:
I think writer Tim Kenneally agrees:
http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/porn-star-sasha-grey-ill-read-your-kids-if-i-want-32732?page=0,0
The idea that the parents who are upset over this are umm....white conservative christian parents (that watch FOX News and the 700 club that drive SUVs violent loving sex haters - secret porn watching analphobic hypocrites), is the wrong assumption. Emerson school stats: http://school-ratings.com/ratingsDetails.php?cds=19734376012272
I think writer Tim Kenneally agrees:
http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/porn-star-sasha-grey-ill-read-your-kids-if-i-want-32732?page=0,0
The idea that the parents who are upset over this are umm....white conservative christian parents (that watch FOX News and the 700 club that drive SUVs violent loving sex haters - secret porn watching analphobic hypocrites), is the wrong assumption. Emerson school stats: http://school-ratings.com/ratingsDetails.php?cds=19734376012272
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JohnEdward
2nd Black Belt
I think the kids at their age of course can't appreciate Ms. Grey's former icon talents, nor knew who she was, like the school admin and the Compton school district. The kids read to at Emerson, on the other hand would have really appreciated Dora The Explorer, or such relatable actor from English speaking or Spanish speaking popular kids shows. Ms.Grey would have really been appreciated at the college level, giving a lecture on acting.
The kids read to at Emerson, on the other hand would have really appreciated Dora The Explorer, or such relatable actor from English speaking or Spanish speaking popular kids shows. Ms.Grey would have really been appreciated at the college level, giving a lecture on acting.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I'm not sure where you got that assumption from (white conservative christian parents... ), but, out of interest, what is the breakup for Christian, particularly Catholic, amongst the Latino community? Such puritanical views are not the single domain of such stereotypes, John.
I think the kids at their age of course can't appreciate Ms. Grey's former icon talents, nor knew who she was, like the school admin and the Compton school district.
Again, what makes you think that the school admin or the "Compton school district" knew about Sasha's background? You didn't before this thread, nor were you aware of her mainstream work. And as far as having "Dora the Explorer" turn up? That would be better as content to be read... after all, you do know she's not real, yeah?
Oh, and the little digs and jibes at Sasha due to your prejudices don't help your argument, as it shows you're not really looking at anything other than your bias based on her previous career. I'm sure you think you're being funny, but frankly, you're not. Honestly, Sasha is far more literate and eloquent than you are, as evidenced through her statements, and her interviews, as well as her co-authoring a book, so casting stones isn't a great idea. Just sayin'.....
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Sheesh, I ignore the thread for a few days, and my last comment is buried deep* in the thread history. Anyway...
Porn, or at least Sasha Gray's variety, is indeed legal, and I agree with you that criminalizing sex, at least between adults, is hypocritical. My point is just that the schoolboard, arguably, has more concerns than with just whether the person's history is legal. It's not an ideal, of course, but Ms. Gray is going to carry the stain* of her prior employment. Her being an ex-porn star is going to be a part of her reputation; this doesn't mean she can't escape it or rise above it, but it's just going to be there. And schoolboards have to consider the opinions of their students' parents when deciding what role models they're going to sponsor, because that's exactly what they're doing by having people come in to read to schoolchildren.
I'm really not trying to say that once a pornstar, always a pornstar, but I do think that it's not unreasonable for schoolboards and parents to be concerned about it. Yes, being a pornstar is a viable option; so's becoming a stripper. Is either one a profession, or a route through life, that a school should be presenting to students?
(*cwutididthur?)
Porn, or at least Sasha Gray's variety, is indeed legal, and I agree with you that criminalizing sex, at least between adults, is hypocritical. My point is just that the schoolboard, arguably, has more concerns than with just whether the person's history is legal. It's not an ideal, of course, but Ms. Gray is going to carry the stain* of her prior employment. Her being an ex-porn star is going to be a part of her reputation; this doesn't mean she can't escape it or rise above it, but it's just going to be there. And schoolboards have to consider the opinions of their students' parents when deciding what role models they're going to sponsor, because that's exactly what they're doing by having people come in to read to schoolchildren.
I'm really not trying to say that once a pornstar, always a pornstar, but I do think that it's not unreasonable for schoolboards and parents to be concerned about it. Yes, being a pornstar is a viable option; so's becoming a stripper. Is either one a profession, or a route through life, that a school should be presenting to students?
(*cwutididthur?)
I think the question is whether they are presenting porn as a profession by having her read to young children. Was she introduced as 'the famous porn star' or even as an actress or was she presented as 'this lady Ms Gray (though I believe some reports said she used her own name rather than her stage name) who has come to read to you today'?
It could also be thought that she is showing that one can rise above being something considered by society as immoral etc if you have the will to do it. I do think that by stirring this up into a big storm in a tea cup some parents will have had some interesting questions to answer from their children. This would have been far better dealt with discreetly between the parents and the school, really it's not anyone else's business.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
First, and I should get brony points for this, too.
Regarding your post, I want to point out that I have acknowledged several times that if the school board has a policy, I can completely understand, even if I don't agree.
But, by all accounts I've read, they don't. This is an after the fact, mock outrage issue and IMO, it's much ado about nothing.
Also, whether Sasha Grey is or was a porn star, again there has been nothing to suggest that either her OR the school administration presented ANY profession other than acting in mainstream television. She didn't campaign on behalf of porn or the porn industry in any way that I could see. And I would agree that, had she, it would be inappropriate.
For me, it's like someone being gay. Now, you are entitled to your opinions regarding homosexuality, as am I. And we don't have to agree. But I believe that there is nothing wrong with a gay man or woman reading to a group of kids. I also believe that it would be VERY inappropriate if this gay man or woman advocated in any way on behalf of the gay community while in the school.
I believe that this is the same for political leaders, whether I agree or disagree with them. It's the same with religious leaders or public figures. IMO.
As an extension to this, I lean toward inclusion over exclusion in education, as well. What I mean is, in an appropriate venue and to an age appropriate audience, I'm very much in favor of provocative debate within classes. In other words, I think that bringing local religious leaders into an introductory philosophy class to high school kids is AWESOME. Let the kids learn about world religion FROM the people who know it best. Let the debate team hear from local political leaders.
Important points: appropriate venue (ie, religion NOT in a science class) AND appropriate audience (ie, high school aged kids).
There was the storm at the local level and then storm the spread across the country. So basically, Two Gales One Cup.
OP
OP
granfire
Sr. Grandmaster
REALLY bad pun!
(and no, do not EVER click on the video link to the reference. EVER!!!!)
