Ever been tazed?

[Thesemindz]

So I'm sitting here watching Fight Science on the National Geographic Channel and they're talking about tazers. They show all the science behind it, and how it works, and they show footage of cops and bad guys getting tazed and reacting to it.

Then they have a self defense instructor who thinks he can overcome getting tazed. So they stand him up, hook a heart monitor up to him to gauge the effect of the tazer, and they shoot him with it.

He falls over, but quickly manages to grab the wires with his hands and yank the probes out of his body, at which point he promptly stands back up and confronts his attacker.

Now I thought this was pretty impressive. I've never been tazed, but I wondered how it would work, and clearly, an aggressive and composed attacker can overcome its effects.

You can find the video here.

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/fight-science/3049/Overview#tab-Videos/03296_09

So what do you guys think? Have you been tazed? What was the experience like? Personally, I'd rather have a .45 than a tazer. That way, god forbid I have to shoot someone in self defense, I know they won't be pulling the slugs out and standing back up.

Unless they're a brain eating zombie.


-Rob

 

[Archangel M]

That was a staged..prepared event. While it may be "possible" that someone could do it on the street, its highly unlikely. Just like the stories of guys brain shot still killing for 4-5 seconds. Could happen, but not likely. No weapon is "foolproof" but 9 (9.5) times out of 10, if you get good probe hits, the taser will knock you on your ***.

And the Taser is a non lethal weapon. Cant compare it to a .45. When you need a .45...you need a .45. Tasers DO NOT replace lethal force.

 

[Thesemindz]

That was a staged..prepared event. While it may be "possible" that someone could do it on the street, its highly unlikely. Just like the stories of guys brain shot still killing for 4-5 seconds. Could happen, but not likely. No weapon is "foolproof" but 9 (9.5) times out of 10, if you get good probe hits, the taser will knock you on your ***.

And the Taser is a non lethal weapon. Cant compare it to a .45. When you need a .45...you need a .45. Tasers DO NOT replace lethal force.

I agree with everything you've said here.

It was a staged event, but it also still worked. And he was also sober, not under the influence of any drug that could enhance his ability to resist pain.

As to comparing it to a .45, I agree. Although I don't necessarily agree that tazers are non-lethal, several people have died from being tazed. They are intended to be non-lethal, and certainly have less potential for lethality, but they can still result in death. My point was just to say that if I was going to shoot someone, I'd want to make sure I shot him with something that knocked him down and kept him there.


-Rob

 

[Archangel M]

Neither weapon is guaranteed to do that. The Taser has as good an effectiveness record as the pistol in "one shot stops" IMO. As a matter of fact I would say the Taser has a better record...probe hits to "non-vital" areas will still drop a high percentage of targets. Same cant be said for pistol caliber rounds. The issue with the taser is that for all intents and purposes its a one shot weapon. It has limited range, zero penetration of barriers and to put it bluntly..when you need to kill someone you need to kill someone. And if I had to do that I'd prefer a rifle.

 

[Thesemindz]

Neither weapon is guaranteed to do that. The Taser has as good an effectiveness record as the pistol in "one shot stops" IMO. As a matter of fact I would say the Taser has a better record...probe hits to "non-vital" areas will still drop a high percentage of targets. Same cant be said for pistol caliber rounds. The issue with the taser is that for all intents and purposes its a one shot weapon. It has limited range, zero penetration of barriers and to put it bluntly..when you need to kill someone you need to kill someone.

You raise a very fair point there about one shot with a tazer versus one shot with a pistol. And one which must be granted if we are to compare the two weapons.

Have you ever been tazed? I have not. Is it more a matter of pain, or complete inability to engage the muscles? If it is pain, I could see how it could be resisted. If it is an inability to send electrical impulses, it would certainly seem harder to do so.


-Rob

 

[Archangel M]

I couldnt move a muscle and it hurt like hell. But when the juice went off I walked away.

Another difference between weapons.

 

[elder999]

I couldnt move a muscle and it hurt like hell. But when the juice went off I walked away..

Ditto, but it ruined the rest of my day.

 

[Archangel M]

Ditto, but it ruined the rest of my day.

I had a little soreness but I had worse DOMS from hard workouts.

 

[jks9199]

It also was not a solid, center mass hit. Watch it slowly (it used to be available on line), and you'll see that he's hit in the stomach and arm. That does effect how the Taser's EMI spreads.

But -- most importantly, as Archangel rightly notes, a Taser is an option in a specific range of circumstances and is in no way a substitute for lethal force. Ideally, when the Taser is deployed, someone else is ready with lethal force in case it's not enough.

 

[jks9199]

I couldnt move a muscle and it hurt like hell. But when the juice went off I walked away.

Another difference between weapons.

Me too; I went rigid, and was lowered to the ground.

Reactions that day ranged from one guy coming up swinging (literally!) after the 5 second ride, through a little wobbly (me and a couple of others, kind of like getting off a boat), to one person was a little sickened/nauseous, for a few minutes.

But nobody went to the hospital, and nobody was injured. Not the same if we'd been using firearms or batons... And, unlike OC, it was over when it was over.

 

[Carol]

You raise a very fair point there about one shot with a tazer versus one shot with a pistol. And one which must be granted if we are to compare the two weapons.

Have you ever been tazed? I have not. Is it more a matter of pain, or complete inability to engage the muscles? If it is pain, I could see how it could be resisted. If it is an inability to send electrical impulses, it would certainly seem harder to do so.


-Rob

An inability to send electrical impulses per se would be a dangerous, if not fatal amount of electricity.

A TASER can feel like a cramp (pain) when it is engaged, but there is more too it than pain. When activated, the TASER delivers a series of ECD pulses designed to specifically make the muscles contract.

ECD pulses are also used - generally at much higher intensities - in biomedical applications. To describe them is kind of like describing a Post-It note. With a Post-It note, the glue is sticky enough to stay put on the page, but not so sticky that it damages paper...even thin paper.

ECD pulses were engineered to deliver the same sort of middle ground...a series of pulses that produced enough stimulus for muscles to contract, but not so much to be damaging. Perhaps the best known application of ECD pulses is one that is much stronger than a taser - the pulses used in cardiac defibrillation paddles.

So no, its not really something that a person can just power through...but...shot placement can make a difference and the person's clothing can make a difference as to what level of disruption actually occurs.

 

[Thesemindz]

An inability to send electrical impulses per se would be a dangerous, if not fatal amount of electricity.

A TASER can feel like a cramp (pain) when it is engaged, but there is more too it than pain. When activated, the TASER delivers a series of ECD pulses designed to specifically make the muscles contract.

ECD pulses are also used - generally at much higher intensities - in biomedical applications. To describe them is kind of like describing a Post-It note. With a Post-It note, the glue is sticky enough to stay put on the page, but not so sticky that it damages paper...even thin paper.

ECD pulses were engineered to deliver the same sort of middle ground...a series of pulses that produced enough stimulus for muscles to contract, but not so much to be damaging. Perhaps the best known application of ECD pulses is one that is much stronger than a taser - the pulses used in cardiac defibrillation paddles.

So no, its not really something that a person can just power through...but...shot placement can make a difference and the person's clothing can make a difference as to what level of disruption actually occurs.

Thanks for the info. Can a person's unique biochemical makeup and anatomical structure also affect the effectiveness of a taser? For instance, would someone with nerve damage, or limited musle death be affected differently? I would assume the answer is yes, but I don't really know much about tasers. Also, could drugs which interfere with the way the mind percieves information, like PCP or Acid affect how a person reacted to being tased?

-Rob

 

[Carol]

Thanks for the info. Can a person's unique biochemical makeup and anatomical structure also affect the effectiveness of a taser? For instance, would someone with nerve damage, or limited musle death be affected differently? I would assume the answer is yes, but I don't really know much about tasers.

I'd assume so but...I'm personally more familiar with variations of electricity than variations in humans. (I know...typical engineer...)

Also, could drugs which interfere with the way the mind percieves information, like PCP or Acid affect how a person reacted to being tased?

Drugs may affect how a person feels the cramping, but the drugs generally won't override the contraction of the muscles...because the purpose of the ECD pulse is to directly contract the local muscles without requiring the brain or any other part of the body to be involved. This is how a cardiac defib can sometimes work on a patient that is unconscious or even clinically dead.

 

[Deaf Smith]

There have been cases where people tazed didn't fall. Not many, but it has happened.

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...ports-stress-TASERs-safety-and-effectiveness/

http://www.gbpolice.org/Taser Study.pdf

But Taser's do have faults. Range (lack of it), multiple shots, abilty to go through very thick clothing (leather vest becomes a 'taser proof' vest, and possibilty of malfunctions (it's alot more complex than a handgun.)

But when it comes between clubbing a resistant suspect and taser them, well the taz is the answer.

Oh, and BTW, I've never been tazed, nor pepper sprayed, nor beaten with a club (and i have no desire to find out what they are like.)

Deaf

 

[Archangel M]

They are working on the multiple shot/range issue...

http://www.taser.com/PRODUCTS/LAW/Pages/XREP.aspx

Who knows what the future holds?

 

[Carol]

The TASER's biggest limitation is its requirement to be attached to a source of power (meaning: a battery), and that battery must robust enough to deliver the ECD pulses. Batteries that are lighter and more powerful are in demand for everything from cell phones to laptop computers to medical equipment to hybrid cars. As this technology improves, so will the versatility.

Plus, can't TASER use be tracked by LE? Don't TASERs deploy spray of small plastic bits microencoded with the TASERs serial number?

 

[punisher73]

I agree with everything you've said here.

It was a staged event, but it also still worked. And he was also sober, not under the influence of any drug that could enhance his ability to resist pain.

As to comparing it to a .45, I agree. Although I don't necessarily agree that tazers are non-lethal, several people have died from being tazed. They are intended to be non-lethal, and certainly have less potential for lethality, but they can still result in death. My point was just to say that if I was going to shoot someone, I'd want to make sure I shot him with something that knocked him down and kept him there.


-Rob

A couple points. The new TASER does NOT work on pain compliance. So drugs/alcohol do not affect whether it works or not. Pain compliance is an added bonus that most people just submit because it does hurt. The TASER works by overriding/scrambling the brain's signal to the muscles causing a whole body contraction, much like one giant charley horse. If I remember right, the device used in the video is NOT the newest generation of TASER and it is unlikely it could be done again like that. If I remember right from the video the TASER model was not used.

Second point, the TASER is meant for a 5 second burst to give time for officers to close the distance and cuff the suspect. After the 5 seconds is over there are no "residual effects" like pepper spray or something like that would have. Also, the civilian model of the TASER, is set for 25 seconds to give you time to run away before the attacker has time to react.

Most of the time when you see a TASER (newest version) not work, it is because of Mr. Murphy and the probes did not imbed to complete the circuit like they are supposed to, or the clothing is too thick to penetrate into the body.

Lastly, NOBODY has died from being tasered. If I shoot you in the head you die as a direct result from the weapon used. The people who have died after being tased were people with a pre-existing medical condition or were so high on drugs that the stress of the event triggered a heart attack (the Taser itself does not effect the heart in any measurable way, even on a pacemaker). The TASER might be seen as an indirect trigger event, but it is not the cause of death. That is an important distinction to be made.

Deaf Smith wrote:

There have been cases where people tazed didn't fall. Not many, but it has happened.

I was able to get tased during my certification and was able to stand up through it and slightly move forward. There were also a couple others from my department who could do that on the full 5 second ride. TASER came out with a newer model that is more effective and the people I know who took a shot with that went straight down even though they could move with the prior one.

Carol Kaur wrote:

The TASER's biggest limitation is its requirement to be attached to a source of power (meaning: a battery), and that battery must robust enough to deliver the ECD pulses. Batteries that are lighter and more powerful are in demand for everything from cell phones to laptop computers to medical equipment to hybrid cars. As this technology improves, so will the versatility.

Plus, can't TASER use be tracked by LE? Don't TASERs deploy spray of small plastic bits microencoded with the TASERs serial number?

TASER has acutally developed a selfcontained 'shotgun' round that does not have lead wires like the smaller 'pistol' version. I want to say it is up to 100ft. and has a longer 'shock' time to allow officers to close that distance.

Yes, TASERS are all coded and recorded every time they are deployed. The newest ones have a small built in camera that records everything as well as soon as the device is turned on.

 

[Drac]

When taking the training to carry the Tazer the department asked for volunteers to take a full hit, I decined..However when doing the practical applications scenerios I didnt wait until the Tazer stopped " clicking" and rushed in to cuff the suspect and my leg touched one of the wires and I froze unable to move..

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I was tazed as part of a certification class. Completely incapacitated me until the juice stopped flowing, and then I was (physically) fine immediately.

But while the juice flowed, it hurt like an SOB and I was completely paralyzed.

Tazers scare the hell out of me now.

That said, I agree with many of the above posts: absolutely effective weapon if used for its designed purpose. It's not a .45 (lethal). It's not a sniper rifle (range). It's not a knife or tonfa (unlimited ammo). But for a non-lethal, close range, one-shot item it's brutal.

 

[elder999]

Lastly, NOBODY has died from being tasered. .

TASER International Inc. lost its first products liability case on June 6, 2008 when a jury awarded damages of more than $6 million in the wrongful death lawsuit of a 40-year old California man. Robert Heston was intoxicated with methamphetamine when he was subjected by police officers to approximately 25 discharges from multiple TASER electronic control devices: the lawsuit claimed the shocks from the TASER contributed to his death.

In October and November 2007, four individuals died after being tasered in Canada, leading to calls for review of its use. The highest-profile of these cases was that of Robert Dziekański, a non-English speaking man from Poland who died in less than two minutes after being tasered by Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) at the Vancouver International Airport, October 14, 2007The tasering was captured on home video and was broadcast nationallyThis was followed by three further death-after-Tasering incidents in Montreal, Halifax, Nova Scotia, and Chilliwack, British Columbia, leading Amnesty International to demand Taser use end in Canada, as it had records of 16 other such deaths in the country.[19] On November 18, 2007, a 20-year-old man in Frederick, Maryland fell unconscious and died also right after being tasered.
On December 12, 2007, in response to the death of Robert Dziekański, Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day requested that the federal Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP (CPC) prepare recommendations for immediate implementation. The CPC report recommended to "immediately restrict the use of the conducted energy weapon (CEW)" by reclassifying it as an "impact weapon." The commission released its report on 18 June 2008; recommendations include restricting use to experienced officers (5 years or more), providing medical attention to those who have been zapped, improving previous documentation of specific deployment of the weapon, among other things
A 2004 CBS News report described 70 deaths believed to be caused by the Taser, including 10 in August 2004 alone] At that time Amnesty International reported the number at 150 since June 2001.
Summit County, Ohio medical examiner Lisa J. Kohler cited Taser use as a cause of death in three cases, Mark D. McCullaugh, Dennis S. Hyde, and Richard Holcomb. Taser International sued, and on May 2, 2008, visiting judge Ted Schneiderman ordered the medical examiner to remove all references to "Taser" in the reports and change the cause of death in McCullaugh's case from "Homicide" to "Undetermined."
On Sunday 18th November 2007 in Jacksonville, Florida, Christian Allen, 21, was pulled over by police because his car radio was too loud. After a struggle he and a passenger escaped on foot, an officer gave chase, caught Allen and tasered him at least three times. Allen died later in custody]

In April 2006 a 56 year old, wheelchair-bound woman with schizophrenia, Emily Marie Delafield died after being shocked at least 10 times when she threatened officers and her family members with a knife. The death was ruled justified homicide
On January 12, 2008, Baron Pikes died after being shocked nine times with a Taser by a police officer. Pikes was handcuffed and six of the shocks were administered within less than three minutes. His death was ruled a homicide by the medical examiner

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