Escape from Headlock

[kickcatcher]

I made a similar comment, but I think it's time to clarify.

A guillotine choke involves wrapping the opponent's neck with both of your arms with your opponent directly in front of you. A Headlock only uses one arm and pins the opponent to your body for the other support.

This is a front headlock, both people standing:

A fair point but I don't think we should be too picky as what is/isn't a headlock. There are of course variations of guillotine and during Alive training within a wide-bandwidth grappling-permissive art (MMA etc) you inveitably come accross all manner of variations. A guillotine is a worst case scenario IMO. The headlock you show is a hell of a lot easier to escape IMO and anti-guillotine moves would work in that situation too. In fact, a reasonable grappler is not going to be too worried about finding themselves in that at all....

 

[DavidCC]

You were both optimisitc...a solid choke latched on...

..I'd give you 3-5 seconds....

a choke that seals the blood will pass you out in sconds

a choke that seals the breath will take a lot longer.... but could kill you.

 

[kickcatcher]

a choke that seals the blood will pass you out in sconds

a choke that seals the breath will take a lot longer.... but could kill you.

Not to be pedantic, but both chokes (wind) and strangles (blood) are inherently fatel moves if carried on past initial unconsciousness.

Whilst blood chokes (strangles) are in theory quicker, I'd suggest that they induce less panic in the 'victim'. Air chokes obviously work quicker on people who panic/flail etc.

In terms of preference, common sense would say take what you find.

 

[rutherford]

A fair point but I don't think we should be too picky as what is/isn't a headlock.

I disagree entirely. As BigNick points out, I think that having a definition would keep the thread from being a complete mess.

In fact, a reasonable grappler is not going to be too worried about finding themselves in that at all....

If you're gonna give me such a wide open statement with no support or explanation, I'm gonna run with it and use it to support my earlier statements. Thanks.

I think a grappler would not be too worried because while it's a position of control, it isn't a great position for choking or other submission.

However, a person not worried about sport fighting rules or killing their opponent would LOVE to get such a dominate position.

It's all about mindset.

 

[kickcatcher]

Interesting points. I must disagree though.

I am a fan of the notion that being too specific and compartmentalized in terms of defences against ‘x’ attack invites hesitation. Therefore I view the headlock shown as a variation on the “front headlock” theme, just as the guillotine choke is a variation on the same.

With regards to the above drawing, which to me is only part of the wider picture, it is an example of a poorly applied front headlock. Assuming both are unarmed, I’d say that the guy in the headlock, provided they have reasonable grappling (by which I mean MMA/BJJ etc) experience, can easily gain the advantage.

I do not think “sport fighting rules” come into it. Sport fighting, by which most people mean MMA, includes the guillotine choke from that basic position which is a hell of a lot more effective than most things.

For a start the guy applying the choke has a poor base and the guy in the headlock could easily effect a takedown into mount, from where he could extract his head and ground-n-pound the attacker. Before you jump onto my suggestion of taking it to the ground, bear in mind that we are talking about going straight into a dominant position.

The above escape is not typical in MMA et al because people generally maintain a better base whilst applying the headlock. Therefore we should consider whether the other “sport” guillotine escapes would work here. Firstly the tactic of looking/pushing your head up behind their shoulder and circling around behind their back – yep, that would work and leave you in a dominant side/back position.

Or the escapes where you lift and slam the opponent – requires greater physical prowess but no reason why it suddenly doesn’t apply equally here.

The dropping defence I would personally count last but I am sure it could also work with a high degree of success if you are suitably skilled.

 

[rutherford]

Interesting points. I must disagree though.

I am a fan of the notion that being too specific and compartmentalized in terms of defences against ‘x’ attack invites hesitation. Therefore I view the headlock shown as a variation on the “front headlock” theme, just as the guillotine choke is a variation on the same.

I'm also interested, because I almost agree with your second paragraph. I also think that being too specific about defenses is a bad thing, but it's not hesitation that I believe will occur. I think if you only know one defense, you're Less likely to hesitate.

The problem is that everybody will move in a different way, and there's a counter for every defense. Thus, one must not grow attached to any particular technique.

But I think that terminology is a great thing. I think it's important to have referrence points. That realization of, "I'm in a headlock" and having a name for it can be very comforting and give you the sense of, "I know what to do." . . . Even if all these thoughts are just impressions that you shouldn't focus on until after the conflict is resolved.

With regards to the above drawing, which to me is only part of the wider picture, it is an example of a poorly applied front headlock.

I'd be interested in your ideas about how to apply it better.

I do not think “sport fighting rules” come into it. Sport fighting, by which most people mean MMA, includes the guillotine choke from that basic position which is a hell of a lot more effective than most things.

Everything changes when a valid defense is to grab the other guy's scrotum and PULL.

 

[kickcatcher]

Rutherford, the headlock would be better is the guy applying it made it into a guillotine choke and/or moved his hips back ("base out") to make him less prone to being taken down, either deliberately or by chance.

I googled "front headlock" hoping for good examples and I did find these two relevant pictures.

1. from A submission-grappling comp. Note how the guy on the left is keeping his hips back, thus putting his weight onto the guy and not gifting a take-down (my guess is that this is actually a guillotine attempt against a shoot or similar takedown attempt, but it is still illustrative of my general point IMO)

2. This is an example of a counter to a non-choking front headlock. It's shown in a sport-Wrestling situation but is generic to grappling and would be relatively do-able from the headlock previously illustrated because the guy had his legs within easy reach:

PS. I don't think that grabbing the groin is a magic answer for front headlocks. No reason not to do it, but it's a poor excuse for not having basic skills.

 

[rutherford]

I agree totally, and I really like the pictures. However, I really question the value of the trip the second guy is going to perform. If his opponent is strong enough to hold on and jerks back hard to increase the momentum of the trip . . . ouch.

 

[kickcatcher]

I see what you are saying. I'd prefer a more simple takedown rather than a leg-pick-up trip as shown, in part because the latter is going to leave you in their guard whereas you could go straight to side control or mount if you kept your legs outside of theirs. But I'm no expert, just saying it as I see it. I can see why you'd be concerned re the momentum of the fall, but in practice I don't see it as a big deal. Go with the momentum and ride it to mount, then extract your head and GnP....

 

[MJS]

Well, we can look at this from two different sides, street and sport. If I'm outside defending myself, the last thing on my mind is going to be trying for a takedown, go to the mount, side mount etc. Quick and simple release.