equal pay day, charade

[billc]

an article on the charges that women are paid less for the same work as a man.


http://www.iwf.org/news/show/24672.html

From the article:

Feminist hand-wringing about the wage gap relies on the assumption that the differences in average earnings stem from discrimination. Thus the mantra that women make only 77% of what men earn for equal work. But even a cursory review of the data proves this assumption false.
The Department of Labor's Time Use survey shows that full-time working women spend an average of 8.01 hours per day on the job, compared to 8.75 hours for full-time working men. One would expect that someone who works 9% more would also earn more. This one fact alone accounts for more than a third of the wage gap.
Choice of occupation also plays an important role in earnings. While feminists suggest that women are coerced into lower-paying job sectors, most women know that something else is often at work. Women gravitate toward jobs with fewer risks, more comfortable conditions, regular hours, more personal fulfillment and greater flexibility. Simply put, many women-not all, but enough to have a big impact on the statistics-are willing to trade higher pay for other desirable job characteristics.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

This is ridiculous and a way to justify paying people less! The fact is that a lot of women work a lot harder than their male counterparts and are still paid less. I know this personally from women I know out in the professional world.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

It's not that simple, Brian.

The numbers seem to show that a woman with an uninterrupted career arc of 10 years makes about the same as a man with an uninterrupted career arc of 10 years in the same industry with the same qualifications.

However, it's true that women are overwhelmingly more likely to take time off if they have children. Meaning after 10 years, only the man has an uninterrupted career arc. While she was working hard at home, he was getting promotions and annual performance raises.

Taken as an aggregate, women make less because of this. If you look at the earning history of a man who chooses to stay home with the kids, it conforms almost exactly to the average female arc.

I'm not saying gender isn't still a problem (I recently read a fascinating article about how women are less likely to negotiate on their starting pay or aggressively pursue promotions, for example). But the idea that Bill at the mill makes $16 for an hour where Jill right next to him makes $12 just because she's a woman has long been untrue and illegal.

Getting heated up about it is like getting mad about South African apartheid. There are still problems in South Africa, but apartheid isn't one of them -- and spending energy on apartheid steals energy from addressing the situations that still need some repair.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

It's not that simple, Brian.

The numbers seem to show that a woman with an uninterrupted career arc of 10 years makes about the same as a man with an uninterrupted career arc of 10 years in the same industry with the same qualifications.

However, it's true that women are overwhelmingly more likely to take time off if they have children. Meaning after 10 years, only the man has an uninterrupted career arc. While she was working hard at home, he was getting promotions and annual performance raises.

Taken as an aggregate, women make less because of this. If you look at the earning history of a man who chooses to stay home with the kids, it conforms almost exactly to the average female arc.

This is a really interesting point, and indicates non-prejudicial causes of disparity. Where did you read about this effect? I'm not doubting it, just curious about the source.

 

[billc]

When I was younger a friend of mine worked for Oscar Meyer. He started out there working for a temp service, and when they found out he could type over 100 words a minute they offered him a job. Several years after his initial hire an opening came up. It was between my friend, a single guy, and a woman with a husband and children. To get the promotion the individual needed to move to colorado. The woman, because of her family had to refuse while my single male friend took the job and has since moved into an exective position in the company.

A good source for this material can be found in a lot of places, I used Thomas Sowell and research through christina hoff summers book "who stole feminism." If you back tracked her foot notes there was a wealth of material. thomas Sowell in his book, " Visions of the anointed" also looked at these statistics. It could also have been one of his other books as well. Single women, who work the same hours and duration as men make the same and in some cases slightly more than their male counterparts in the same job. The statistical disparity comes in when you look at all men vs. all women. Most men work their entire lives while a good deal of women take time off to raise families. Women tend to get degrees in the liberal arts or the soft sciences while men tended, at least back then, to get degrees in business and the hard sciences.

They also looked at women who entered fields that were tougher to get back into after time taken to raise kids. women in the education field had an easier time getting back into that field compared to medical professionals or engineering fields where the technology had passed them up.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I will agree that it is more complex particularly with the fact of pregnancy time off, etc. However, I have been in the business world and on the professional side of things I have observed women not getting an equal share and also had this hold true with professional women that I know well past the age of child bearing who by and large work longer hours than their male counterparts and still are reimbursed less than them. Yet, I also know women at the high end of the pay scale who make more than male counterparts as well. Yet I would say that is not the norm. It is a complex issue but.... I would tend to believe that in general women are paid less when particularly when salaries come into play.

I would agree that it is no where near as big an issue as it once was. Women lately and most assuredly in the future will dominate the work force. One only needs to go to the many colleges and universities across this country to see an overwhelming majority of ladies on the campuses far outnumbering their male counterparts. (read an article on this recently but cannot remember where it is)

Still it is an issue!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Billi raises a good point. In addition to straight missed time, families move less often for the woman's job than the man's, women are more likely to stay home with sick children - or to leave work early for family reasons. It's still part of the non-prejudicial causes for wage disparity.

Brian - in terms of sources - the data behind the gender wage gap was something I found out while studying sociology in college (late 1990s). I couldn't point to a specific source, but it's established truth among economists and sociologists.

However, the subtle assumptions of our society about how well a woman is ALLOWED to do her job -- that's important and has an affect that can add up to over 1,000,000 dollars in difference over a lifetime.

 

[Blade96]

Thomas Sowell is a believer in free market lassaez faire capitalism. I wouldn't trust him much on what he says.

 

[Empty Hands]

In addition to straight missed time, families move less often for the woman's job than the man's, women are more likely to stay home with sick children - or to leave work early for family reasons. It's still part of the non-prejudicial causes for wage disparity.

It's still plenty prejudicial, just not directly by the company. There is a much, much greater burden of social pressure and expectation on women to be the ones to leave early for their kid, put their kid over their job, take time off after the birth, and so on. The stats show that women shoulder a much greater burden of home care, child care, and so on, even when both partners have equal hours work. Women are expected to, and do, more of the work, which can't help but affect their careers.

Of course, prejudice of this sort hurts men too. Men who do want to take time for their families are looked down upon more often for doing it. It is much harder to get time off after the birth for the father, and even by law, the time that may be taken is shorter. And so forth.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

That's a very good point, Empty Hands. Although there's a world of difference between prejudice ensconced within the power structure (i.e. companies setting policy of a wage difference between men and women) and prejudicial social pressures. We've got a ways to go yet, but the first is a lot more harmful.

And I agree completely that it hurts men. I mentioned in another thread the difference in peoples' reactions between if I introduce myself as a "freelance writer" as opposed to a "stay at home dad." Both are true, but one skeeves people out.

 

[Carol]

I'm not saying gender isn't still a problem (I recently read a fascinating article about how women are less likely to negotiate on their starting pay or aggressively pursue promotions, for example).

I definitely think not negotiating starting salary aggressively enough hurts a lot of women.

Not aggressively pursuing promotions is a different issue. Promotions, more often than not, involve job changes. A financial analyst (for example) that has what it takes to be a comptroller typically has to change jobs to get hired in to a comptroller position. Not all job changes fit a person's life, or their family's life. A financial analyst that has what it takes to be a comptroller is a damn good financial analyst, and shouldn't be underpaid simply because of their gender.

I also don't think taking care of the kids is as much as a factor. We also have a very different work environment today than we had even 10-15 years ago. A person that left work early, left work early. A person home with a sick kid was often out of touch with the office. Its not like that with many jobs now. Heck, some folks work during their commute. Buses this far north have Wifi...it can be a long commute to Boston, but many folks are online and working as soon as they board. Access options, and a global market encompassing multiple time zones give many people opportunities to address personal matters in their life while still performing well at their job.