Entry techniques

[mook jong man]

ok

 

[cwk]

ok

easy.
turn off his ghetto blaster.

 

[zepedawingchun]

ok

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Thanks.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I'm starting to wonder where mook pulls all of these gifs and images out from!
I don't think I could have found something like that in a month..
I bet he's been waiting patiently to use that one for some time now..

 

[hunt1]

so you are referring to 18 specific techniques from the weapons forms that can be used in empty hand fighting?

can you give some examples of how you attack aggressively to close the gap?

Ok first have to start with what weapons teach. You can't sit and wait for a bladed attack to come to you. Blades are to dangerous and to fast even a cut on iside forearm can be fatal. You must go forward and meet it. Or receive what comes. Both weapons teach you to move forward to meet an attack.

Pole gives you side position one arm forward . Knifes not side on 2 arms. Using pole form for example.In my wing chun the .5 move is bui because the other moves have both Yin and Yang uses. Bui is just yang. attack and finish only no Yin hence the .5 move.Also all moves end with bui in a fight. You tan to clear line then dart forward to finish,bui for example.

Basic empty hand example.Your opponent facing you with a left lead. Basic boxing position. You in basic wing chun stance. You don't watch his hands. His hands don't matter you watch his body for any movement. Hands don't matter because you know what he wants to do with a jab, hit you in the face. So upon any motion or if you are in your range you move forward with right tan and right leg to close the distance as he is punching at you. Your tan will either intercept on inside or outside. Either way the tan opens a line, then that hand continues forward as a punch.Kicking also comes in here as well and can be the bui movement. Key is move into the attack ,open a line and continue through the opening.
You can use any hand shape to do thing like this of course Jum ,gan pak bong etc. Best against a possible jab coming from lead hand tan wu bong lan. Other moves may put you in bad position if you end up on the wrong side. Jum is great on outside cutting toward center. Not good if lead jab turns out to be lead hook. your jum in now inside and has to change to tan and stepping into a lead hook not good. Tan wu etc defend without changing no matter if lead jab or lead hook.

Hope this helps. Cant come close to covering everything in a post.

 

[mook jong man]

I'm starting to wonder where mook pulls all of these gifs and images out from!
I don't think I could have found something like that in a month..
I bet he's been waiting patiently to use that one for some time now..

Ah young grasshopper , if only my Wing Chun was as formidable as my Google-Fu.
And your correct I have been waiting to use that one for ages.

 

[Jens]

Or receive what comes.

when recieving what comes, do you also step forward to intercept or wait until the attack comes to you?

Pole gives you side position one arm forward.

Ok, so you use the side pole punch like a jab in boxing

Knifes not side on 2 arms.

what are the different stepping variations that you use from the knife set to step forward and intercept the opponent's attack?

Basic empty hand example.Your opponent facing you with a left lead. Basic boxing position. You in basic wing chun stance. You don't watch his hands. His hands don't matter you watch his body for any movement. Hands don't matter because you know what he wants to do with a jab, hit you in the face. So upon any motion or if you are in your range you move forward with right tan and right leg to close the distance as he is punching at you. Your tan will either intercept on inside or outside. Either way the tan opens a line, then that hand continues forward as a punch.Kicking also comes in here as well and can be the bui movement. Key is move into the attack ,open a line and continue through the opening..

Is your tan to clear the line and punch done in one motion, or rapidly one after the other?
when stepping forward to intercept, is your right leg on the inside or outside of the opponent's lead left leg? and are you square or turned 45 degree like in the knife advancing step?
also in the above situation would you ever step forward with your left leg lead on the inside of your opponent's left lead leg? and what's your reasoning?

 

[hunt1]

Jens, good questions but I hesitate to give any more detailed answers than already given as it may be counter productive for some.

While in theory we all do wing chun with the same understanding and operational mechanics in practice this is not true.

To illustrate I had certified sifu from Canada come visit for some advanced training. I knew and had spoken to this mans sifu many times on the phone. He seemed to have a good understanding of wing chun . I was surprised to find that his student did not have an understanding of the operational basics. I even took the visitor to train with my friend Phil and his students to give him the widest possible exposure to wing chun operation as possible. Phils wing chun is from a different source than mine but we share the same understandings. It is not a my way or the highway thing.

So you see even someone that trains for years and years and teaches others may not actually have what I consider basics.
With out touching your hands there is no way for me to know.

The way I do wing chun is based on the basics I was taught and use. If you do not have the same foundation than doing things the way I do them may not work for you and even could work against you. I provided a general place to look for the information within the system. So look there and then apply things the way you have been taught to apply wing chun

 

[geezer]

Hunt makes a good point, and it's best to approach any online advice with caution. If you can't see it, feel it, and test it out.... how do you judge what's being said? That said, I sometimes think that so much emphasis is given to our differences that we forget to emphasize the fundamentals we share. "Good"... that is to say effective WC shares certain fundamental traights, regardless of the branch or lineage. I hope to start a new thread on this topic when I've got a free moment.

 

[Jens]

Jens, good questions but I hesitate to give any more detailed answers than already given as it may be counter productive for some.

While in theory we all do wing chun with the same understanding and operational mechanics in practice this is not true.

To illustrate I had certified sifu from Canada come visit for some advanced training. I knew and had spoken to this mans sifu many times on the phone. He seemed to have a good understanding of wing chun . I was surprised to find that his student did not have an understanding of the operational basics. I even took the visitor to train with my friend Phil and his students to give him the widest possible exposure to wing chun operation as possible. Phils wing chun is from a different source than mine but we share the same understandings. It is not a my way or the highway thing.

So you see even someone that trains for years and years and teaches others may not actually have what I consider basics.
With out touching your hands there is no way for me to know.

The way I do wing chun is based on the basics I was taught and use. If you do not have the same foundation than doing things the way I do them may not work for you and even could work against you. I provided a general place to look for the information within the system. So look there and then apply things the way you have been taught to apply wing chun

hunt1,

Perhaps this man you speak of didn't have the proper charecter, so his sifu probably withweld key info from him. it's a common thing in martial arts you know. The other possiblity is that this man did not have the capacity to catch what the sifu was trying to impart to him.

Here is a post by David Peterson on this very topic
"I clearly recall Sifu telling the story that on one occasion after Bruce Lee returned to Hong Kong, he attempted his 'JKD' skills against Sigung Yip Man himself and was shut down instantly. As Sifu put it at the time he recounted the story, Bruce was so embarassed that he left without even taking his jacket off the hook by the doorway and it still hung there days later.

Ive also heard the tale of Yip man kicking Bruce Lee from one end of the room to the other. As I heard Bruce Lee said 'oh you didnt teach me that' to which yip man replied 'theres a lot I didnt teach you'




I completely understand what you mean by things can work against you or become counter productive for some if they does not have the same foundation. After all the foundations in Yuen kay san, kulo, cho gar, yip man, pan nam, pao fa lien all have different ideas of how the mechanics in their system works.

 

[Shin71]

Recently in sparring I have been using a low lead hand feint and follow it up with rear back-fist that is committed so it is either block or get hit (in theory). After this I usually try and pull off a forward inside or outside drift to be in their blind spot long enough to press the attack or get some breathing room.

 

[Nabakatsu]

In my recent sparring, I've been laying back, waiting for them to come to me, as soon as they move in, taking a step to be in range to hit me, I will crash in and destroy their balance and follow up with chain punches and kicks. until we reset, and than repeat.

 

[mook jong man]

I do have to say that I do not believe throwing fakes or feints should be a part of the Wing Chun system.

In my opinion they violate several important principles and concepts relating to DIRECTNESS , ECONOMY OF MOVEMENT , ENERGY CONSERVATION , AND NO WASTED MOVEMENT.

In responding to fakes or feints , as long as they are in range they should be treated as a real attack , if we practice our concept of Lin Sil Die Dar (Simultaneous Counter Attack) then one hand should be reacting to deflect the perceived attack (be it real or fake) while the other hand punches the opponent in the head.

Having said that , it is also very important to stay very economical with your deflections and don't open up your defensive area too much , keep your arms in the proper angle , hands in the centre and only use enough movement to nullify the attack and no more.
That way if a mistake is made you have a much better chance of recovery than if your hands are all over the place.

So getting back to reacting to feints or fakes , whether the attack is real or fake , the outcome is the same , the opponent gets hit.

We only have to look at Chi Sau to provide an example of this , if we are engaged in Chi sau and you took your Fook Sau off my Tan Sau to throw a fake hook at my head , then I don't go chasing your hand all the way up to my head to stop it , on detecting the loss of contact I will strike straight through the centreline and hit you.

You will only be vulnerable to fakes if you are passive , do not adhere to the concept of simultaneous counter attack or go chasing hands all over the place.

 

[yak sao]

In my recent sparring, I've been laying back, waiting for them to come to me, as soon as they move in, taking a step to be in range to hit me, I will crash in and destroy their balance and follow up with chain punches and kicks. until we reset, and than repeat.

I think this is the best approach for WT/WC sparring.
While sparring long, continuous rounds are good for building stamina, which in turn will build mental toughness, ie. fighting spirit, I believe it to be counterproductive to good WT skills development.
Sparring, with its give and take, I hit you, you hit me, is not how WT people should train.
Remember, we are a fighting system, and a real fight should be over in a matter of a few seconds, not in a few rounds.
When your opponent attacks, intercept, and dominate.....chain punch, kick, knees elbows, whatever presents itself. Go for 5 or 6 seconds and then reset.
It's important that your training partner resist during this 5 or 6 seconds, not simply throw his initial attack and then stand there and take a beating.
By having him resist, you will be developing real world sensitivity to use against a violent attack, not merely theoretical concepts developed during chi sau.

Also, don't always start from long range. Mix it up. Sometimes have your opponent start from boxing range, or right in your face. I know in a perfect world we would keep our opponent at range and intercept, but bad guys don't always cooperate. So vary the ranges and positions you start from.

 

[mook jong man]

I think this is the best approach for WT/WC sparring.
While sparring long, continuous rounds are good for building stamina, which in turn will build mental toughness, ie. fighting spirit, I believe it to be counterproductive to good WT skills development.
Sparring, with its give and take, I hit you, you hit me, is not how WT people should train.
Remember, we are a fighting system, and a real fight should be over in a matter of a few seconds, not in a few rounds.
When your opponent attacks, intercept, and dominate.....chain punch, kick, knees elbows, whatever presents itself. Go for 5 or 6 seconds and then reset.
It's important that your training partner resist during this 5 or 6 seconds, not simply throw his initial attack and then stand there and take a beating.
By having him resist, you will be developing real world sensitivity to use against a violent attack, not merely theoretical concepts developed during chi sau.

Also, don't always start from long range. Mix it up. Sometimes have your opponent start from boxing range, or right in your face. I know in a perfect world we would keep our opponent at range and intercept, but bad guys don't always cooperate. So vary the ranges and positions you start from.

Absolutely , the bits I put in bold I think are especially important.

When we are playing the role of the attacker with the group that I train , we aim for continuous attacking movement and combinations so that the guy playing the Wing Chun role must maintain his concentration for those five or six seconds it takes to get control of the situation and dominate.
He learns to recover from mistakes and make split second decisions on the fly.

Having the attacker throw one or two punches then back off and stand like a wax work figure allows the Wing Chun guy to regain composure and does nothing to replicate the stress and heightened sense of danger that we must learn to cope with in a real situation.

 

[Poor Uke]

In my recent sparring, I've been laying back, waiting for them to come to me, as soon as they move in, taking a step to be in range to hit me, I will crash in and destroy their balance and follow up with chain punches and kicks. until we reset, and than repeat.

Hows that working out for you?

 

[hunt1]

Perhaps this man you speak of didn't have the proper charecter, so his sifu probably withweld key info from him. it's a common thing in martial arts you know. The other possiblity is that this man did not have the capacity to catch what the sifu was trying to impart to him.


Off the point I was trying to make but I doubt this was the case. Teacher always seemed a good guy. Only a crook and a moron would do something like this. Don't forget I am talking about basics, how to stand ,how to step, accept pressure,punch. Basic stuff.
Only a crook and a jerk would take someones money for 5 years knowing he was teaching the guy garbage. He would be a moron because he certified the guy as a sifu to teach using his, the original teachers name as his source for his wing chun. Who would do this knowing the guy would only embarrass and make him and his wing chun look like junk?

It was just the case of different operational understandings.

As to withholding information. Anyone that takes a persons money and then withholds information is a crook or worse. When we are paid we have an obligation to teach the best way we can and if a student has a problem understanding or doing something it is our duty to provide him with an alternative way of doing it. When I have a problem getting through to a student I even take them to see another teacher if needed, Phil Romero in my case, to see if he can help.

 

[Nabakatsu]

It's working out a hell of a lot better than the hand chasing, wana be kickboxing nonsense I was trying before

 

[mook jong man]

This sort of ties in with performing your reflex training at different ranges as mentioned earlier by Yak Sao.

Note I don't use the term sparring because that to me denotes that both partners are using the same techniques , which as I have mentioned before I think is useless unless it is Chi Sau sparring.

I believe it is also important that sometimes you do this type of training to target certain skill sets , so sometimes we will do this reaction type training in different ways.

• Wing Chun guy starts from hands down position.
• Wing Chun guy only allowed to use kicks.
• Wing Chun guy only allowed to use hands.
• Wing Chun guy defends from kneeling position.
• Wing Chun guy defends from seated in a chair position
• Wing Chun guy defends only with one arm.
• Wing Chun guy using hands and legs against attacker only using arms.
• Wing Chun guy using hands and legs against attacker only using kicks
• Wing Chun guy defends against attacker at close range while back against a wall.
• Wing Chun guy defends random attack starting from eyes closed , at a verble go signal from attacker he is allowed to open eyes and defend.
• Wing Chun guy defends against total random attack from kicks , strikes , grabs , tackles , and take downs.
• Wing Chun guy must finish any sequence with elbow strike.
• Wing Chun guy must finish any sequence with knee strike
• Wing Chun guy must finish any sequence with finishing kick such as stamp kick , or close range hook kick.