Entry techniques

[cwk]

I was sparring with my regular training partner today and I was mainly concentrating on trying out different entry techniques ( bridging and passing to the inside of his guard without waiting for him to attack first). It got me thinking that it might be a good topic for a discussion so here we are-
So, What entry techniques do you guys favour?
I have a few favourites but one I'm always successful with is to step in either with a straight non committed punch or simply a tan or mun sao ( it doesn't really matter as this is just a set up ) then, as soon as you make contact with their lead hand and they give you a little outward pressure, huen to the inside of the arm and give them a short heavy pak sao to the inside of the elbow joint or bicep. This same hand then bounces straight back to cover their rear guarding hand and it leaves you with a clear strike with your ( rear) free hand.This all has to be done very quickly but it's quite a simple action and with a little bit of drilling it becomes very natural.

 

[hunt1]

The sword form provides you with 12 different entry methods of the type you are looking for. The pole form provides 6 more. !8 different attacking entries should keep you occupied for some time.

 

[mook jong man]

Our term for entry techniques is called "Chark Jong" which roughly means smashing defences.
Pak sau and punch or a Tan sau and punch would be a very simple example of a Chark Jong technique.

The main factor which determines what type of Chark Jong technique you will use is the position of the opponents guard in relation to your guard.

If his guard situated higher than yours , tactically it will be better for you to come from underneath and insde his guard with yours and destabilise his stance and penetrate his guard that way.

If your opponents guard is the same height or lower than yours , then you would be better served to come over the top and outside of his guard with a double Tan sau , trapping both his arms and striking through at the same time then following up with further trapping.

If it is a non Wing Chun opponent we are facing then the above concepts still apply , but we will also have the added factors of the opponents arms situated at different heights , not positioned on the centerline etc , they may even have a dynamic guard that is constantly moving.

To simplify this all we have to do as we move in , is to mirror the opponents arm positions with our own appropriate Wing Chun structures and strike through as we control both their hands.

One example maybe that the opponent has a high and low guard , one hand head height and the other down low.

We could control and strike through to the neck on the inside of his high arm with a Tan Sau whilst at the same time controlling and striking through over the top of his low arm to the stomach with a Chit Sau or your lineages equivalent.

The main thing to remember is that we have to be able to hit through on the opponent without ourselves getting hit in the process.
This requires that we must use the appropriate hand structures in order to control both of his hands and hit through simultaneously , preferably while also affecting his stance.

 

[WC_lun]

I am more of a counter fighter, so I don't seek to initiate the bridge as much as control it once contact is make. So I haven't really thought much of these types of techniques. Some interesting repsonses though. I'll have to remember them in case any of my classmates are reading MT too!

 

[cwk]

The sword form provides you with 12 different entry methods of the type you are looking for. The pole form provides 6 more. !8 different attacking entries should keep you occupied for some time.

we actually have 8 seperate drills for entry techniques in our system and for each entry there's a counter and then a counter to the counter and so on, to a total of 8 counter-counters (if that's a word?). So all in all there's 64 techniques.

 

[cwk]

Our term for entry techniques is called "Chark Jong" which roughly means smashing defences.
Pak sau and punch or a Tan sau and punch would be a very simple example of a Chark Jong technique.

The main factor which determines what type of Chark Jong technique you will use is the position of the opponents guard in relation to your guard.

If his guard situated higher than yours , tactically it will be better for you to come from underneath and insde his guard with yours and destabilise his stance and penetrate his guard that way.

If your opponents guard is the same height or lower than yours , then you would be better served to come over the top and outside of his guard with a double Tan sau , trapping both his arms and striking through at the same time then following up with further trapping.

If it is a non Wing Chun opponent we are facing then the above concepts still apply , but we will also have the added factors of the opponents arms situated at different heights , not positioned on the centerline etc , they may even have a dynamic guard that is constantly moving.

To simplify this all we have to do as we move in , is to mirror the opponents arm positions with our own appropriate Wing Chun structures and strike through as we control both their hands.

One example maybe that the opponent has a high and low guard , one hand head height and the other down low.

We could control and strike through to the neck on the inside of his high arm with a Tan Sau whilst at the same time controlling and striking through over the top of his low arm to the stomach with a Chit Sau or your lineages equivalent.

The main thing to remember is that we have to be able to hit through on the opponent without ourselves getting hit in the process.
This requires that we must use the appropriate hand structures in order to control both of his hands and hit through simultaneously , preferably while also affecting his stance.

Good info as always mr mook.

it's true what you say about the guard. my training partner is a chen taiji instuctor so entering his guard does take some adjusting of angles and such and I have to be very aware of tight circular counters coming in from tricky angles.

 

[KamonGuy2]

The trouble is that people often think of fighting opponents who have guards up. In my experience this is a very rare thing. Most people who initiate confrontations have their hands low. Its only once you have struck the person that they get hands up.

When you train in sparring CWK, are you training entry with your partner on the back foot, or are they in a well planted guard? Its often very useful to train your partner going back - Ive previously been caught out by opponents going backwards to defend themselves and its quite awkward to follow them. This is why controlling an opponent is a very handy tool to learn and something wing chun specializes in (ie a lot of arts rely on strike upon strike as opposed to setting up the opponent)

Ive seen so many demo videos of wing chun which have involved an ‘attacker’ throwing in a pathetic strike from a neutral base. In reality, most people will throw in a punch with their whole body. Its worth analyzing how people will actually engage you in a confrontation. My advice is to watch some CCTV shows and you’ll see what I mean

 

[cwk]

The trouble is that people often think of fighting opponents who have guards up. In my experience this is a very rare thing. Most people who initiate confrontations have their hands low. Its only once you have struck the person that they get hands up.

When you train in sparring CWK, are you training entry with your partner on the back foot, or are they in a well planted guard? Its often very useful to train your partner going back - Ive previously been caught out by opponents going backwards to defend themselves and its quite awkward to follow them. This is why controlling an opponent is a very handy tool to learn and something wing chun specializes in (ie a lot of arts rely on strike upon strike as opposed to setting up the opponent)

Ive seen so many demo videos of wing chun which have involved an ‘attacker’ throwing in a pathetic strike from a neutral base. In reality, most people will throw in a punch with their whole body. Its worth analyzing how people will actually engage you in a confrontation. My advice is to watch some CCTV shows and you’ll see what I mean

It's just free sparring, no safety gear or gloves just some mutual trust, control and a little faith lol. we didn't agree to work on entry techniques, it was just something that I was playing with while sparring.
My partner is a chen taiji guy so he's usully in a very rooted stance but still quite mobile. He often uses steps to the side and back and also a lot of body movement.
I agree with what you say about "real life" punches, I worked on the doors back in blighty for a while and pretty much every time someone took a swing at me it was a fully committed, whole body punch. I think the punch from a neutral stance is good for getting the technique down but then people should move onto more "alive" drills, with your partner moving around and gradually putting more and more into the punches.

 

[Jens]

The sword form provides you with 12 different entry methods of the type you are looking for. The pole form provides 6 more. !8 different attacking entries should keep you occupied for some time.

hunt1 are you referring to 18 footwork patterns? what exactly do you mean by attacking entry methods?

 

[geezer]

The sword form provides you with 12 different entry methods of the type you are looking for. The pole form provides 6 more. !8 different attacking entries should keep you occupied for some time.

I wasn't going to bring this up, but now that Jens has posted a question regarding this comment by Hunter, .... I really wonder if this is much use for 99.9% of us. I mean how many have even been taught the Luk Dim Boon Kwun or Bart Cham Dao? And even if they have, are they the same versions? And even if they have learned the same versions, do they view the applications the same way? Hmmm. Anyway, it's not much use to me.... I've learned the pole form and about half the dao form so far, but still have a ton to learn about application. As far as entry techniques go, I try to clear my mind of what I want to do. I usually surge forward when I perceive that the other person is committing to an attack, I try to intercept that attack... and the rest is why we train chi-sau and lat-sau!

 

[Nabakatsu]

I like those silly Keith Kernshpect folks idea of "universal solution" to some extent, at least in a sparring context. A kick to the bladder, or somewhere on the leg with a few chain punches.
I've experienced how horribly idiotic it is to try and kickbox with Wing Tzun.. I haven't yet had a chance to rectify that mistake, but I plan on being a lot more aggressive, and dominating the center line like a maniac, constantly pressuring and knocking back my opponent.
As far as entry techniques, I really agree with Steve, I need to turn my mind off and just let the training come out.. trying to sweep across a punch with tan da, and footwork angling me off the main line of attack, or pak da a jab just didn't work!
I took some decent shots, so maybe I'll eat some more to get to a close fighting range and than from there see what I can work with. I think I could probably use my lat sau skills to get in... time will tell!

 

[cwk]

I like those silly Keith Kernshpect folks idea of "universal solution" to some extent, at least in a sparring context. A kick to the bladder, or somewhere on the leg with a few chain punches.
I've experienced how horribly idiotic it is to try and kickbox with Wing Tzun.. I haven't yet had a chance to rectify that mistake, but I plan on being a lot more aggressive, and dominating the center line like a maniac, constantly pressuring and knocking back my opponent.
As far as entry techniques, I really agree with Steve, I need to turn my mind off and just let the training come out.. trying to sweep across a punch with tan da, and footwork angling me off the main line of attack, or pak da a jab just didn't work!
I took some decent shots, so maybe I'll eat some more to get to a close fighting range and than from there see what I can work with. I think I could probably use my lat sau skills to get in... time will tell!

I usually just use a parry and head/foot movement with jabs. I think waiting for your opponent to commit with a rear hand or leg is the best time to try to enter. Either that or use kicks to throw off their timing/spacing and then strike through their guard at an angle backed up with proper structure ( whole body mass). They can either get hit, cover up or try to counter from an awkward position, IMO any of these is a better situation than what will happen if you try to pak/tan da a jab.

 

[mook jong man]

We like to work on counter-punching the jab , by that I mean we use our own punch to intercept the jab.

Although we are using it to intercept and gain contact with his arm , it goes without saying that we must have the intention of driving straight through and punching him in the head if the energy from his jab is weak or off centre.

But due to the uncommitted nature of the attack this can be difficult as the hand is already retracting and the opponent is usually already retreating , in my experience against a fast jab you will be doing well just to be able to stay with it and stick to it.

Using our right arm to his right arm or our left arm to his left arm , making contact with the outside of our wrist to the outside of his wrist.
If the jab was left out there we would latch it down , but usually the jab is retracted too fast for it too be latched down.

Therefore is important to move into him quickly so that you can stick to his jab with a Fook sau , using your footwork and springy force you can usually jam up his punching arm and prevent him from firing off multiple jabs with the same arm.

Make sure you keep an eye on his power hand at the back , because he will instinctively try and use that when his front hand is jammed up and under control.

 

[hunt1]

I wasn't going to bring this up, but now that Jens has posted a question regarding this comment by Hunter, .... I really wonder if this is much use for 99.9% of us. I mean how many have even been taught the Luk Dim Boon Kwun or Bart Cham Dao? And even if they have, are they the same versions? And even if they have learned the same versions, do they view the applications the same way? Hmmm. Anyway, it's not much use to me...

I find this a sad commentary on wing chun and leads one to see why wing chun is always attacked for not showing any evidence of producing quality fighters. The in fighting among yip mans students still infects so much of what is done today.

First what version of what form is Bubkis. B.S, worthless. An argument that hangs on my wing chun teacher was a better student of yip mans than yours etc.

You can not find 2 students of Yip Man that were directly taught by yip man that have the same knife form and it doesn't matter! You can not find any 2 wing chun families that have the same knife form and it doesn't matter. You can hardly find any 2 Yip Man students with the same pole form and cannot find any 2 wing chun families with the same pole form and it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because every legit family and all the different students of yip man that learned different versions of the weapons forms all share the same group of core points.

And it is the core points that you need to know and should be taught with in the first 6 months of training if you want people to actually be able to fight with wing chun against trained fighters of other styles.

And guess what,you will find a number of yip students and others that teach students these core points.

Viewing applications the same way is another garbage argument. There are no this is right and this is wrong or my way is best. Thinking that way is small mined and showing a true lack of understanding.

My favorite Yip Man story is when two students had an argument over how the right way to do a tan sau. They asked him which one of them was doing the tan sau correctly and Yip said they both were.

The correct application of anything is the one that works when you need it to work. Any application anyone teaches is just one possibility nothing more. You may do what you have been taught as the 100% picture perfect Leung Jan couldn't do it better tan sau and if your jaw gets broken guess what? It wasn't correct. You can do the worst looking tan sau in the world and if it saves your face it was correct.

 

[hunt1]

hunt1 are you referring to 18 footwork patterns? what exactly do you mean by attacking entry methods?

Jens while footwork plays its part I am being more general in my statements.

The weapons forms are not just a magic form that has use for weapons and nothing else. They contain the core crossing the gap and finding the bridge methods of wing chun fighting.

Anything you can do against a sword or a knife or a spear you can certainly do against an empty hand can't you?

When you look up wing chun fighting on youtube what is the common problem you see in almost 100% or the clips? The inability to safely with aggression cross the gap. The core points of the weapons forms give you the methods to do just this. No need for the WT universal solution etc.

The core points will give you 18 different ways to do this. Then you practice them either at the 6 gates or if your wing chun is like mine 9 gates. The methods will also teach you how to attack 2 gates at ones. This is not complicated although it may sound so at first.

Many people already do these things or are taught them and don't find out until years later they are from the weapon forms.

There are in general 2 ways to close the gap.Llet the other person come to you, generally the method people feel most comfortable with or attack in an aggressive manner as soon as your fighting range is entered. This is the method wing chun became known for but it is also the harder method to learn and do safely.

 

[Jens]

The weapons forms are not just a magic form that has use for weapons and nothing else. They contain the core crossing the gap and finding the bridge methods of wing chun fighting.

Anything you can do against a sword or a knife or a spear you can certainly do against an empty hand can't you?

The core points will give you 18 different ways to do this. Then you practice them either at the 6 gates or if your wing chun is like mine 9 gates. The methods will also teach you how to attack 2 gates at ones. This is not complicated although it may sound so at first.

so you are referring to 18 specific techniques from the weapons forms that can be used in empty hand fighting?

can you give some examples of how you attack aggressively to close the gap?

 

[geezer]

...It doesn't matter because every legit family and all the different students of yip man that learned different versions of the weapons forms all share the same group of core points.

And it is the core points that you need to know and should be taught with in the first 6 months of training if you want people to actually be able to fight with wing chun against trained fighters of other styles.

Sounds like a good topic for a new thread: "The core points of WC, the essentials that should be taught in the first six months". I'm all ears on this one. (No, I'm not being sarcastic either. If I sound that way it's just that the typical hostility towards any input on WC has predisposed us all to expect a negative response).

 

[Nabakatsu]

All posts thanked I agree with, would love to see the ideas within become fulfilled!

 

[Eric_H]

I used to think and ask about this a lot, and honestly never got a good answer.

These days I understand why.

Entry is dependent on Facing, Range and Leverage. HFY Wing Chun has a bridging layer called "Kiu Sao" which is about how to Enagage and Disengage (primarily using the forearm). It wasn't until I got most of the way through it that I understood that it was just a method to know how to pick apart someone else's structure and keep your own safe. With that in mind, I just calculate my entries on the fly these days. That said, I haven't been through the Bai Jong training yet, so I reserve the right to change my opinions later

As for what's common to all WC - use your gate theory, own the centerline. As was already mentioned, use the vertical pieces too, distract high to hit 'em low, etc.

 

[Eric_H]

Actually, this might be a fun exercise, anyone want to put up some pics of various fighting postures and we can discuss how we would break them down? Used to do that in class quite a bit in the old days.