Empi/Wanshu/Wansu Discussion

[Makalakumu]

I just learned Empi from a student of Kanazawa Sensei. It's a pretty fun kata, and it looks like it has a ton of great applications in it. Here is the version I learned.

I'd like to start a discussion about this kata. I'd like to cover a broad area of topics from application, to history, to different versions of the kata. Hopefully, all of this will help me understand it better.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is the wiki on Enpi.

Enpi (燕飛?), also frequently transliterated as Empi, is a kata practiced by Shotokan and other karate styles. Enpi means Flying Swallow.
Enpi comes from the Okinawan martial art of Tomari-te, where it first appeared in 1683. It is believed to have been influenced by Chinese boxing. It was originally called Wansu. Funakoshi Gichin changed the name to Enpi when he moved to the Japanese mainland in the 1920s. Funakoshi changed the names of many of the kata, in an effort to make the Okinawan art more palatable to the then nationalistic Japanese. The most commonly accepted theory about its creation and development is that a Sappushi Wang Ji, an official from Xiuning, transmitted the kata while serving on Okinawa. Legend has that Wang Ji had the habit of throwing and jumping on his adversaries. Because of this dynamic form of combat, this kata resembles a swallow in flight.

Others suggest that Enpi was a product of the interaction between Okinawans and the so-called "36 Chinese Families" that immigrated to the islands in the late 1300s. Still other teachers believe that it was based upon Sasaki Kojiro's sword techniques, because they were also said to resemble a swallow. Although Enpi is generally known as a black belt level kata, Empi is often first taught at 2nd or 1st kyū.[citation needed]

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is the wiki for Wanshu.

Wanshu is a name borne by several katas in many systems of karate, including Isshin-Ryu, Shotokan (under the name empi), Wadō-ryū and others.
Wanshu is also the Okinawan-adapted name of Sappushi [Jp. 'diplomat'] 'Wang Ji' (1621-1689), the leader of a large ambassadorial mission from China sent by the Qing government to the village of Tomari, Okinawa in 1683. A poet, calligrapher, diplomat, and martial artist in the Shaolin tradition of Fujian White Crane, he is often credited with teaching chu'an fa to the gentry of Tomari.

The Wanshu kata was either a creation of Wang Ji's, or composed by his students and named in tribute to him. Regardless, many karate traditions include a kata bearing the name of Wanshu or a variant (Ansu, Anshu) which vary in schematics but carry certain distinctive similarities. One translation of the word "Wanshu" is "dumping form" for the dramatic grab-and-throw technique seen in most versions.

The two main versions are Matsumora-Wanshu and Itosu-Wanshu; though Itosu Anko trained with Matsumora Kosaku, it is uncertain whether Itosu adapted his version from Matsumora-Wanshu or whether he acquired a separate Wanshu kata that would have developed in parallel to
Matsumora's. Itosu-Wanshu, while still bearing this name in certain karate styles, was renamed Empi by Gichin Funakoshi for use in Shotokan.

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is Kanazawa Sensei's version. This is basically Shotokan.

Here is the JKA version of Enpi.

Here is the Isshinryu version. It doesn't even look like the same kata.

Here is the Seibukan version. Interesting changes. You can see similarities.

Here is the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu version. Very similar but done at a different angle. Or maybe filmed that way.

Here is the Korean Tang Soo Do version. Side kicks. Heh.

 

[Grenadier]

Wanshu is a very good kata for getting people to smooth out their mechanics, which is why it's usually taught at the black belt level.

There's not much difference between the Shotokan version (Enpi) versus the Wado version (Wanshu) on the surface, that the only big differences that I can recall are the use of tate-seiken (vertical fist) in Wanshu, versus using full turn punch in Enpi, after the front kick in each of the three series of the same movements.

It's a kata that anyone can do, and make it look really nice, even if they can't perform the jump at the end. I've seen many folks pull of a really good looking Wanshu, simply by pivoting in a circle at the end (the folks with bad knees / ankles).

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings the Seibukan version of Wanshu is the version which The
Isshin-ryu version was created from, I am uncertain as to the origin of the Matsubayashi version, Nagamine sensei had many teachers but, was a
student of Chotoku Kyan (as well as several of his students) ,
( the Seibukan is Kyan’s lineage )

Interesting Nagamine sensei says the Hidden fist is the most important feature of Wanshu, In his book “ The Essence of Okinawan karate Do”, In most version of Wanshu the hidden Fist is , well , Hard to see : )

In the Isshin-ryu version it has been removed or at least replace, and it is otherwise un-emphasized In most versions of the kata, personally I think this is a great loss.

Look at the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu version , pointed to in the previous message,
The Hidden fist is there, do you see it ?

Here is a excerpt from Nagamine sensei book , mentioning the hidden fist.

http://books.google.com/books?id=0pfop_Cgb0gC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=nagamine+wanshu&source=bl&ots=C1PB9FBAOh&sig=T8vCzKt6REH3g_v6E4Bc-pXwjD8&hl=en&ei=lUiQSamRMZjeM92CmLAL&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result#PPA187,M1


here is a interesting flyer which mentions the lineage of some versions of Wanshu

http://bushido-kai.net/images/downloads/Empi.Matsukaze.Wankan.pdf


As for the legend surrounding the source of Wanshu kata, it is most likely suspect as a factual account. Wanshu or Wang Ji is known to have been a Chinese official who was sent to Okinawa, this is factual as they have a letter sent back to the Chinese by Wanshu, which speaks of the arrangement of one of the temples on Okinawa.
It is highly unlikely that Wanshu was a warrior or knew a martial art,
The Sappushi tended to be Confucian Book worms, who were required to pass very stringent tests, To qualifiy for such a position and mission. He was also from the capital which is in the north, Northern styles tend to be soft internal methods) , And Wanshu resembles other Okinawan kata which are heavily southern influenced (harder and more external).

Why Wanshu kata is named for Wang-Ji is probably a mystery which will never be unraveled.

A Red swallow is the Mythical bird (phoenix) associated with China,
Chinese maps are oriented to the south not the north,

This is also related to moon stations , Traditional Chinese Medicine , Fengshui , and astronomy etc
http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/summer.htm

http://www.usenature.com/article_fengshui_garden.htm

Anyway, this is IMO , all very symbolic, and a mystery which , I doubt will be solved,
But , interesting to speculate about .

Romney^..^

 

[twendkata71]

As I watch the Tangsoodo version, I remember being told by a Tangsoodo stylist that their kata were not from Shotokan. Someone has misled them. Their version looks too similar to not be from the Shotokan(empi) kata. Ah well to each their own eh.

Here is Kanazawa Sensei's version. This is basically Shotokan.

Here is the JKA version of Enpi.

Here is the Isshinryu version. It doesn't even look like the same kata.

Here is the Seibukan version. Interesting changes. You can see similarities.

Here is the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu version. Very similar but done at a different angle. Or maybe filmed that way.

Here is the Korean Tang Soo Do version. Side kicks. Heh.

 

[twendkata71]

As far a Kanazawa's version, there is no basically Shotokan about it. It is Shotokan. I am sure Master Kanazawa added kata from other styles to his SKIF, but he is shotokan, he was one of the first JKA instructors to graduate from the instructor training program and go overseas. I believe his break with the JKA happened about 1978, perhaps a little later. The JKA did not approve of him going to Okinawa and studying other styles. He has slightly changed some of the kata, but not enough to make them completely different from the JKA versions he learned from Nakayama.

Here is Kanazawa Sensei's version. This is basically Shotokan.

Here is the JKA version of Enpi.

Here is the Isshinryu version. It doesn't even look like the same kata.

Here is the Seibukan version. Interesting changes. You can see similarities.

Here is the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu version. Very similar but done at a different angle. Or maybe filmed that way.

Here is the Korean Tang Soo Do version. Side kicks. Heh.

 

[Makalakumu]

As I watch the Tangsoodo version, I remember being told by a Tangsoodo stylist that their kata were not from Shotokan. Someone has misled them. Their version looks too similar to not be from the Shotokan(empi) kata. Ah well to each their own eh.

You are exactly right. The TSD version is Shotokan's with a few minor changes. The ignorance comes from that the history of Korean arts has been muddied on purpose in order to obscure any Japanese connection. However, once you start looking at the founders and where they trained, it become undeniable that TSD is the Korean version of Shotokan.

 

[Makalakumu]

As far a Kanazawa's version, there is no basically Shotokan about it. It is Shotokan. I am sure Master Kanazawa added kata from other styles to his SKIF, but he is shotokan, he was one of the first JKA instructors to graduate from the instructor training program and go overseas. I believe his break with the JKA happened about 1978, perhaps a little later. The JKA did not approve of him going to Okinawa and studying other styles. He has slightly changed some of the kata, but not enough to make them completely different from the JKA versions he learned from Nakayama.

That's an interesting piece of information regarding Kanazawa Sensei. I had never heard that. I am currently training with a student of his out here in Hawaii. The Okinawan connection makes sense because Kanazawa included four Naha-te kata into the Shotokan curriculum, upping the total number from 26 to 30.

Regarding Enpi, there are slight changes, but I would say that you are absolutely correct. It is Shotokan. The differences probably have more to do body difference then anything else.

 

[Makalakumu]

One of the things that has always perplexed me is how kata with the same name can look so different. When you look at the various Okinawan styles, it doesn't even seem like you are looking at the same kata. Any thoughts on this in regards to Enpi?

 

[wolfeyes2323]

One of the things that has always perplexed me is how kata with the same name can look so different. When you look at the various Okinawan styles, it doesn't even seem like you are looking at the same kata. Any thoughts on this in regards to Enpi?


I have a few thoughts and opinions about this, they can be viewed as nothing more, as I
Do not believe the question can be answered authoritatively.

IMO there are different influence on karate based on where the methods were originally practiced,
They are kind of mixed up and overlap now, in modern karate.
Historically There were methods practiced in Shuri the Okinawan Capital by those who served the Kings,
One of the most notable being Bushi Matsumura , these were not methods developed by
Peasants, they were the methods of the kings retainers and his court.
There were also method practiced in Tomari, again this was not really peasant methods they
Were methods practiced by those who keep the peace, kind of like militia , a notable practitioner
Being Kosaku Matsumora . These names are close and they are often confused,
Finally you had the methods practice by those in Naha, these were often men from
The merchant class , who often sailed to China as part of their studies. Again not really peasants.
Kanryo Higashionna being a example.

Anyway , as karate developed the styles started to overlap, Masters like Chotoku Kyan combined
Many of the methods of Shuri and Tomari creating his own lineage of Shorin-ryu,
Mabuni kenwa , combined the methods of Shuri and Naha in Shito ryu, Tatsuo Shimabuku
Conbined the methods of Kyan,Motobu (shuri,Tomari) with those of Miyagi (Naha)

In all cases the kata were modified in some way to better fit the methods of these lineages,
And while the principles remain the same , how they are expressed differs.

Another modifying factor is making a curriculum of kata that at one time stood alone.
There are many skills in kata, and the same kata can be used to teach these skills at
Different levels. You start out with a Blocking form, of simple block and counter,
Then include elements of trapping locking, breaking , throwing etc, this skills can be
Taught all within the same kata, but in modern karate, they seldom are.

In traditional karate most students were not taught all the kata of a method, they were
Taught a few base kata, and then one or two other kata, mastering the different levels
Of these kata could take a life time.
The base kata of Kyan linage Shorin-ryu is seisan, of Choki-Motobu – Naihanchi of Miyagi –sanchin,
You may then have been taught two other kata to perfect.

In modern karate this is not true, we are taught advance kata and methods as beginners,
But we often only learn one level of the kata. For instance as white belt we may learn
A kata that emphasizes , block and counter, the second kata often emphasizes the skills
Of seizing and controlling , by opening the hands , the third kata my emphasize the transition
In stances, used for throwing, the four kata may emphasize locking or breaking ,
Which can be used against weaponry etc. In reality all of these skill can be taught
In one traditional form, but they are not, taught like this in modern curriculums.

So when looking at different version of kata, from different styles or methods ,
We need to look at the influences in the lineage, and then where the kata
Falls in the curriculum, there are usually certain concepts or principles that
Are being demonstrated and practiced and the Emphasis may be quite different
Depending on lineage. Is the kata being used to teach simple block and counter,
Attacks from behind, grappling (locking , breaking) , throwing , etc

Perhaps we can look at some version of wansu, and compare how certain section
Are modified to teach different skills sets or have a different emphasis,
This may make the above clearer.

Romney^..^

 

[Aefibird]

I chose to perform Enpi as one of my free-choice kata for my 1st Dan. Great kata, easy to pick up and perform but has some really good applications that can be taken from it too.

 

[Grenadier]

One of the things that has always perplexed me is how kata with the same name can look so different. When you look at the various Okinawan styles, it doesn't even seem like you are looking at the same kata. Any thoughts on this in regards to Enpi?

Different systems will adapt a particular kata to suit their own purposes. While there may still be a common theme amongst each particular version of the given kata, the rest is going to be subject to the whims of the styles in question.

Back when I trained in Shuri Ryu Karate, I learned their version, which was called "Empi Sho." Not too different from the Wado version (Wanshu) or the Shotokan version (Enpi) that I learned as well, but there were several style specific features that distinguished it from the other two versions that I learned.

The three grappling moves going forward (common in all three systems) varied. For example, the Shuri Ryu version would start the hands doing an open-handed outward middle block, turning the hands over, and then grappling, while the Wado version would start with the hands held high and low, and do a bone bend / joint lock directly from that position.

Each system has its own merits, and to me, it's a good thing to see that people can interpret things in different ways, yet still work on the practical applications.