Emerging hybrid school trend

[shaolin_al]

I've tried to search the forums and am unable to find any other posts on this subject. I see a constant trend these days of a martial arts school gym saying they offer styles like Shaolin KF + every other style, japanese/korean/etc... Is this because of the new MMA popularity or a marketing gimmick cause of economy? I used this dojo as an example, http://www.dragondojo.com/. How can one teacher be proficient to teach in systems as in depth as shaolin kung fu and also all these other styles? This trend is ruining martial arts possibly?

 

[David43515]

I`ve only been to one school that taught more than one style. And they had seprate teachers for the seperate styles. You can be proficient in more than one system, but being good enough at several to teach them is pretty rare.

But if you think this is a new phenominon, or that this is what`s ruining MA you don`t get out enough. MA instruction has more problems than a dog has fleas.

 

[Blindside]

I don't think it is all that uncommon for instructors to be ranked in multiple arts anymore. For example, many of the various Inosanto lineage instructors are ranked in Muay Thai/Inosanto Kali/some submission grappling system. Are they likely to be as proficient in any one area as a specialist? Probably not, that doesn't mean they aren't legit.

That said, its good to be skeptical of outlandish claims, and that school that was cited in the original post is one I'd be very leery of.

 

[Milt G.]

I've tried to search the forums and am unable to find any other posts on this subject. I see a constant trend these days of a martial arts school gym saying they offer styles like Shaolin KF + every other style, japanese/korean/etc... Is this because of the new MMA popularity or a marketing gimmick cause of economy? I used this dojo as an example, http://www.dragondojo.com/. How can one teacher be proficient to teach in systems as in depth as shaolin kung fu and also all these other styles? This trend is ruining martial arts possibly?

Hello,
Often, but not always, a teacher has a working "basic" knowledge of a few different systems and "blends" them into a composite art that they teach. Some even devise a ranking system in the discipline.

The sad thing is that the students will only learn the basics of a few systems packaged as a complete art. A green or brown belt in four different systems is still a green or brown belt, technically.

As was stated, there are those who have a teaching level ability in a few different arts and teach them all, sometimes as a composite art. In the end, the practitioner will determine the outcome of the endeavor. It takes a lifetime to master one art, in most cases. One who proclaims mastery in many just may be leading one down "the garden path". While mastery in many arts is possible, it is highly unlikely IMO.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Xue Sheng]

How can one teacher be proficient to teach in systems as in depth as shaolin kung fu and also all these other styles?

They can't

This trend is ruining martial arts possibly?

Ruining martial arts......maybe...maybe not.

Ruining specific styles like Shaolin.... yes

You can combine styles and be a very proficient martial artist. However if you combine Shaolin and Karate and TKD and Judo and call it Shaolin..... you are wrong. It is no longer Shaolin, it may or may not be a good style for fighting but Shaolin it isn't

Sadly, IMO, many today have no patience and do not want to take the time (years) to train a style, understand a style, learn how to properly apply that style and gain the benefits of that style. We all want to become dangerous and warp speed today and being dangerous is all that matters.... so many

There is a flip side to this that is equally as destructive and maybe more so.

Over emphasizing one area of a style, for example spirituality over any realistic application or over emphasizing form over application of over emphasizing application over form, any of those will destroy a style just a easily.

 

[tallgeese]

It depends on the school. Some places will have an insttructor ranked in multiple arts that can teach like you're talking about. More often, it's usually multiple instructors that make that happen.

This kind of set up works well since you're sharing the load of earning rent between two or three insructors teaching differnt things that are appealing to a broader cross section of people.

Also, it's entirely possible for someone these days to be ranked in a couple of arts or even one. Then go and cross train and compete in MMA. It's also not uncomon to see those places teaching a base art, a MMA class, a grappling only class (espicially if someone there is advanced rank in BJJ), and maybe a kickboxing class.

It's not as outlandish or impossible as it might seem. That being said, I'd carefully check the quailty out before affiliating myself with one. Take a look at what they are claiming to teach together, some things make sense, others don't. It's also common for everyone to be teaching grappling these days and not a lot of trad arts have that extensive a componant in that. Best to find out what tthe background is on that.

Could go either way. Best way to know is to check it out. Certainly the trend isn't going to destroy the arts, but it might set you back on your own personal progress if it's not done well.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I've tried to search the forums and am unable to find any other posts on this subject. I see a constant trend these days of a martial arts school gym saying they offer styles like Shaolin KF + every other style, japanese/korean/etc... Is this because of the new MMA popularity or a marketing gimmick cause of economy? I used this dojo as an example, http://www.dragondojo.com/. How can one teacher be proficient to teach in systems as in depth as shaolin kung fu and also all these other styles? This trend is ruining martial arts possibly?

Kind of depends on what you mean by 'ruining' and what you mean by 'martial arts'. If you're a traditionalist who's interested in the purity of a martial tradition lineage over all else then yes, it is ruining martial arts. If you're interested in carving away what is useful from what isn't, this is a golden age of martial training.

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

I'm going to have to agree with Sgt Mac on this one, but will add that schools like this should be judged on a case by case basis, never generalizing that all schools suffer from the same problem. However, the OP's link raises some serious red flags for me, particularly the area where the Shihan's bio states that he holds the highest ranking possible in a system HE founded, as well as lists several other systems that he also founded. Plus, seeing something like "Holds a black belt in ninjutsu" and "trained with Tibeten monks" just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[MJS]

I've tried to search the forums and am unable to find any other posts on this subject. I see a constant trend these days of a martial arts school gym saying they offer styles like Shaolin KF + every other style, japanese/korean/etc... Is this because of the new MMA popularity or a marketing gimmick cause of economy? I used this dojo as an example, http://www.dragondojo.com/. How can one teacher be proficient to teach in systems as in depth as shaolin kung fu and also all these other styles? This trend is ruining martial arts possibly?

To answer your questions.

1) Yes, with the MMA craze today, many schools have incorporated some sort of grappling, MMA type training. IMO, there is nothing wrong with this.

2) Its possible that there are seperate teachers for each art. For example, a school that offers Kenpo and BJJ, could very well have a Kenpo instructor and a BJJ inst.

3) It is very possible for 1 person to be ranked in a few different arts. I'm ranked in Kenpo and Arnis. I have a 3rd in Kenpo and a 1st in Arnis.

4) If one person is teaching multiple arts, what I would look at is that persons rank in each. For example...if you saw 1 teacher with an 8th in Kenpo, an 8th in TKD, and a 5th in Judo, I'd question how it would be possible to acheive 2 very high ranks during that persons lifetime. Of course, knowing the instructors age is helpful too. I mean, if the guy is 30yrs old, I'd think a red flag would be raised.

I've never heard of the people or the art in question, so my suggestion would be, if you were thinking about joining this school, would be to do some homework. If you're paying for something, I'd imagine you'd want to be learning from a quality inst. not a fake.

 

[Stonecold]

I saw the same thing in the late 70's . After Bruce Lee came out in the movies, Kung fu studios were poping up everywhere, every 2nd Karate school was offering Karate, Kung fu ect... Some would open sign up students take their money & be closed before a class was taught. there have always been Masters of Bull **** in the Martial Arts.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

You got to handle this school by school.
You have to look at the claims and the goal of the school.

Our school is headed by 2, 4th dans in Jujutsu who trained in a blended ecclectic style of Jujutsu and Daito Ryu for about 12 years. Durring 10 of those years our late Sempai taught his blend of knife fighting along with techniques and tactics he picked up from other arts over his many years of training in different arts. So just based on that, you have a degre of Hybridism in our training. Not to mention I came from a background in striking arts and both of us have crosstrained in CQC and FMA/IMA.

Next to Jujutsu, I emphasise Combatves in my trainiing more than I do FMA/IMA. ( 50% Jujutsu, 30% Combatives, 20% FMA/IMA)
My partner is very active in FMA/IMA so he emphasises that more than i do.

The 2 of us broke off from our Mother school, in part to maintain an openminded approach to training. We have allowed others in our school with knowledge and skill in other arts to bring in elements for study and asesment.

So if you came to our school you would get a solid base of Combat and Aiki Jujutsu training but you will also be expossed to Boxing, Karate, Combatives, Filipino and Indoneasean MA blended in with the main Jujutsu base.

A school should be like a MA College, offering good , solid instruction but allowing you to grow into yourelf not a clone of what has come before.

 

[kingkong89]

Many schools are going to multiple styles in their training simply because their are so many styles and interest out there. The dojos i teach at are multiple systems so we have multiple instructors from those styles

 

[ap Oweyn]

I don't think it has much to do with the MMA craze, though you're certainly seeing an increase in schools offering MMA training as well. To me, that's distinct from schools that offer instruction in three or so different styles. Depending on the styles involved obviously. A school advertising instruction in muay thai and BJJ may well be catering to the MMA craze. But a school offering gung fu and arnis probably isn't.

Are schools that offer a range of styles necessarily inferior? No. I'd definitely want to do my research on the teacher(s)' qualifications in the arts that they claim to teach. It comes up a lot in FMA, for instance. Some schools in this area offer FMA as an add-on to their main style (e.g., taekwondo). That could mean that they've got a teacher especially in to do the FMA. It could mean they've got someone on staff qualified to teach both. (There was a time in my life where I was qualified to teach both styles, though you could argue endlessly about my "mastery" of each.) Or it could mean that they ponied up the entrance fee for one of their black belts to attend a two-day seminar in basic sinawali drills and now they're billing their FMA class "to cover weapons."

Could be crap. Could be legit. Difficult to form a useful opinion without knowing more.

As far as the "jack of all trades, master of none" argument, I have trouble with that one. It's a pretty standard line of reasoning. "It takes X years to master one style. Nevermind two."

I've yet to hear a particularly helpful definition of "mastery" one style though. Being able to apply that style in all situations? Being able to defeat an opponent of a particular caliber? Being able to recite and perform all the salient forms, drills, and techniques of a style?

I think it's possible to be competent in more than one style. Even to the point that you feel warranted in teaching those styles. I started in taekwondo. Do I have the taekwondo chops to rival Hee Il Cho, for instance? No. I don't. That guy has dedicated his life to one style. And he's clearly going to be better and more informed at it than I am. But that doesn't mean I couldn't teach it proficiently. In addition to teaching FMA.

But none of that really describes a hybrid anyway. Two styles being taught distinctly side-by-side isn't a hybrid. A synthesized amalgam of them is a hybrid. And that idea is as old as the hills, though it gets a face lift periodically by the likes of Bruce Lee, the UFC, etc.

Is there an increase in such styles? Maybe. I think we have more exposure to various source materials and teachers these days, making our inspirations more diverse. I happen to know that I'm currently sitting within 10 miles of teachers specializing in capoeira, muay thai, BJJ, eskrima, silat, gung fu of various sorts, American kickboxing, Western boxing, Western fencing, taekwondo obviously...

So just in terms of exposure to source materials, that's likely increased over the years. But I think the basic drive to draw from various sources and tailor something to your needs (or even just preferences) is hardly a new idea. And I certainly don't think it's ruining anything. But then, I'm a mutt. And not unhappy about it.


Stuart

 

[Senjojutsu]

To answer your questions.
2) Its possible that there are seperate teachers for each art. For example, a school that offers Kenpo and BJJ, could very well have a Kenpo instructor and a BJJ inst.

When I read this thread's title that what I assumed the subject was about.

A commercial school teaching/offering a variety of curriculum to single student across multiple instructors.

It's a business decision/model to meet market demand. Think of all the hybrid auto dealers out there - thirty years ago most auto dealers were one brand only. The smart ones started to branch out, offering both domestic/foreign brands etc.

Or think of the recent development of all these hybrid super gas stations. These places sell gas, are also a convenience store, that has a donut/coffee franchise, and some fast food sandwich chain all under one roof.

It's not your daddy's dojo anymore.
Whether it is a good or bad thing we can debate.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've tried to search the forums and am unable to find any other posts on this subject. I see a constant trend these days of a martial arts school gym saying they offer styles like Shaolin KF + every other style, japanese/korean/etc... Is this because of the new MMA popularity or a marketing gimmick cause of economy? I used this dojo as an example, http://www.dragondojo.com/. How can one teacher be proficient to teach in systems as in depth as shaolin kung fu and also all these other styles? This trend is ruining martial arts possibly?

Just to get some clarification: do you mean schools teaching multiple arts as separate courses of study or do you mean hybridization of multiple arts into a single amalgam with a new name? From what I read, it seems that you mean the former, in which case your thread should be titled, "Emerging multi-art school trend."

And I am not sure that you could say that this is an emerging trend. I have seen schools with multiple martial arts (as opposed to mixed martial arts, which is a different animal) for at least a decade, if not more. In fact, I will go so far as to say that it is fairly normative.

As to how one teacher can be proficient to teach multiple styles, the first question is, does a school have more than one teacher? Most schools that offer multiple arts have multiple instructors with backgrounds different arts, allowing the dojo to offer more than one art.

As far as the "Dragondojo" that you link to in your post, they call themselves a "Mixed Martial Arts" school, but here is their adult program description:

Click on the links to the right to get started! You can learn about our specialized adult martial arts programs, our katana training course (called Ki Ken Do™, the Way of the Spirit Sword), and our meditation program (the Waiest™ Discipline). Also, be sure to click on the weapons, grappling, and Team D.D.M.A. links to learn more about what adults can be involved in at Dragon Dojo Martial Arts

It looks like a karate based on the events that their DDMA team competes in, the look of their uniforms, and the mention of Dragon Dojo Martial Arts® Seasonal Karate Day Program in their news and "Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Wado Ryu, Ninjutsu, and Shaolin Fist Kung Fu! ", but then they mention Uke Ki Shin Ryu as the main art. Anyone ever heard of it? I can only assume that the grappling and weapons program are part of that. The sword program looks very suspect based on the description alone, and that is all that I can say within the bounds of the forum rules.

Who knows? Maybe it is a great school with either a very poorly written website or a cheesy marketing program; I do not want to badmouth them without having trained there, as the look and tone of a school's website is not always indicitive of the quality of teaching. I think that it should be noted that their prices, "1. Class prices break down from $4.14 to $3.15 a class. You pay more than that for fries and a soft drink," hardly qualify as highway robbery, provided that they do not charge an outrageous fee for tons of incidentals. At 4.14 per class, going twice a week, it comes out to roughly $34.12.


Anyway, it does not look like an actual mixed martial arts school. Our school has taekwondo, hapkido and kendo. We are not a mixed martial arts school. By the same token, it looks like the school that you linked has multiple programs taught as separate courses of study. Hard to say without actually seeing the school, but that is how it looks, with the catch phrase of "Mixed Martial Arts" being used to attract customers.

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

This particular "school"? All you need to do is read their Weapons page to know that you need to run away from them! "Traditionally, the Samurai carried both a steel blade and a wooden bokken." And that's only part of the crap there. I think it's far from coincidental that the guy who runs the dojo is the founder of everything connected to it...

More generally, as others have said, it's not impossible to see a school legitimately providing instruction in a few different styles, especially if different people are teaching or the arts are related, like karate and Okinawan kobudo. But the wilder th claims, the less likely that all is on the up & up.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This particular "school"? All you need to do is read their Weapons page to know that you need to run away from them! "Traditionally, the Samurai carried both a steel blade and a wooden bokken." And that's only part of the crap there. I think it's far from coincidental that the guy who runs the dojo is the founder of everything connected to it...

More generally, as others have said, it's not impossible to see a school legitimately providing instruction in a few different styles, especially if different people are teaching or the arts are related, like karate and Okinawan kobudo. But the wilder th claims, the less likely that all is on the up & up.

Pretty much my estimation.

Daniel

 

[still learning]

To answer your questions.

1) Yes, with the MMA craze today, many schools have incorporated some sort of grappling, MMA type training. IMO, there is nothing wrong with this.

2) Its possible that there are seperate teachers for each art. For example, a school that offers Kenpo and BJJ, could very well have a Kenpo instructor and a BJJ inst.

3) It is very possible for 1 person to be ranked in a few different arts. I'm ranked in Kenpo and Arnis. I have a 3rd in Kenpo and a 1st in Arnis.

4) If one person is teaching multiple arts, what I would look at is that persons rank in each. For example...if you saw 1 teacher with an 8th in Kenpo, an 8th in TKD, and a 5th in Judo, I'd question how it would be possible to acheive 2 very high ranks during that persons lifetime. Of course, knowing the instructors age is helpful too. I mean, if the guy is 30yrs old, I'd think a red flag would be raised.

I've never heard of the people or the art in question, so my suggestion would be, if you were thinking about joining this school, would be to do some homework. If you're paying for something, I'd imagine you'd want to be learning from a quality inst. not a fake.

Hello, Excellant points!! ....Aloha

 

[Miles]

I teach at a multi-discipline school-I'm the TKD guy. The other instructors are in Sifu Inosanto's programs and through his influence we have a multitude of other arts offered. It is excellent for someone who wants to train but is not sure if they want to do TKD or Muay Thai (or both) or Savate, or Inosanto-blend Kali, or Pekiti Tirsia Kali, or Silat, or Combat Submission Wrestling, or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, or just the conditioning class....

 

[Kwan Jang]

If you lived in Japan, you had the choice of studying Judo, JJJ, Aikido, or possibly Japan's Karate. If you were in Korea, you would most likely have exposure to TKD, Hapkido, or TSD (for the most part). In the west, especially areas of the USA with a large immigrant population, you have a melting pot with an extensive exposure to many different systems, and in certain areas, to high level instruction in many of them. You also have many high level masters and champions who are far more willing to share and cross train than in the past. This has bred some very high level oppurtunities for people to train in multiple systems.

I began my training in Daito Ryu and Judo as a child back in 1971. I trained in that until my instructor quit teaching when I was a brown belt. I did test for first dan when I was 18 and was already a first dan in Hapkido (a strongly related art which I ended up at 5th) so I had a good base. The man who tested me for this was a classmate of my first instructor (who BTW, Had failed the same BB test I had passed in the Korean systems multiple times). Since then, I have trained with Mike Swain and members of the US Olympic Judo team many, many times over the years (and have even helped them as a teaching assistant in judo seminars). I have trained in Small Circle JJ with Wally Jay and consider his son and succesor Leon as a good friend who has often tried to talk me into teaching a SCJJ program in my school with me as the instructor and he has often taught seminars at my school (and he even taped one of his instructional videos here).

Ralf and Cesar Gracie both had BJJ programs out of our schools when they first moved over here and helped set up our foundation in BJJ. I was once offered a purple belt in BJJ back in the mid-90's, but wasn't really interested since I was already a JJJ and Judo black belt and though there rank structure was more of a marketing gimmick (hindsight is 20/20) and that BJJ was more of a fad. Both Frank Shamrock (5x UFC champion) and Bob Cook (head MMA trainer at AKA) have taught MMA submission grappling at our schools for several years. I had a botched knee surgery, that has forced me to re-structure all of my submission grappling, but I am planning on trying my hand at competition soon. I have tapped out many BJJ black belts and MMA/NHB fighters in training, but they were kind enough not to go after my bad knee in training. Still, I think I am more than qualified to teach this aspect of the arts.

I've been doing the FMA's since 1979 and had the oppurtunity to train with the West Coast Escrima Society who had a teaching program in our school. Member instructors included guys like Mike Inay, Dan Inosanto, Jimmy Tacosa, and (for a time, my training partner) Jeff Elliott among many other high level masters and practitioners. I am a good Eskrimador and instructor for a lower level Guro, but admittedly there are better out there. Still, I (and others) feel that I am more than qualified to teach at least the basics. BTW, KJN Ernie was one of the first Americans to become a BB in Modern Arnis under Remy Presas.

I was introduced to Muay Thai in 1980 by Benny Urquidez who would come up to San Jose every few weeks to work with us and later brought to a higher level by the Fairtex guys. I worked more with Alex before he died and later more with "Woodman" and "Dr. Knees". I also had some help from Javier Mendoza. Personally, my fight record is 14-0 as an amatuer boxer and 8-0 as a pro in kickboxing (though it was under full contact/national rules). Regardless, I feel pretty well qualified to teach this.

In TKD, I hold a rank of 6th dan. I have been successful on the state, national and international level. though admittedly I have done very little competition under WTF rules in a few decades (one state chapionship in '99). Also on the open circuit I was nationally rated in forms using TKD. Since I have a master's rank and a teaching title of Kwan Jang Nim, I guess I could add this to my list.

In MMA/NHB, I have trained for years with guys like Frank Shamrock and Bob Cook whenever I am in town. I travel back home to train 2-4 weeks a year. Both have taught the black belt classes in NHB/MMA at our headquarters school for years apiece. American Kickboxing Academy (AKA), one of the top and pioneering MMA training camps actually got it's start as a side program in one of our schools. Many of AKA's trainers and fighter regularly train with KJN Ernie in our moring BB classes (hey. we have a cage). Scott Coker, head of Strikeforce is my fellow 6th dan under KJN Ernie. In practice I have mauled and tapped out several top MMA fighters, though in fairness I did have a notable size and strength advantage AND none of them went after my bad knee. Still, the NHB/sport MMA class that I teach out of my school is very valid IMO.

For the record, I am not just trying to say "that I think I'm all that" or ego tripping. It's just that there are probably many people out there like me that have a strong background in multiple arts. Some may have higher qualifications in several arts than some "purists" may have in their one art/system. There are OTOH, many people who merely self-promote or lie about their credentials. Or go to a seminar for a weekend, pay a fee and get "certified" to teach a system that they really have no background or real experience in.