redantstyle
Blue Belt
from who?
Ebay Fake Certificates
- Thread starter K Williams
- Start date
from who?
A system of self defense, based upon martial traditions known to exist, combined with an established system of training and passing on methods, styles, and traditions of same. A hierarchy of trainers and membership in at least one professional association dedicated to the same form of self defense which has more than one member.
Just a jump at it.
No offense taken. I am a newbie in MA, but I have read some on the history of some MA styles. Learning the history and traditions of the subjects in which I am interested is a hobby and habit of mine.
That has certainly been the case with Isshinryu. However, Isshinryu is a recognized style, it has a lineage (no matter what branch one belongs to) that traces back to Master Tatsuo Shimabuku, and although one may disagree with what 'is' and 'is not' Isshinryu, one might well agree that a person claiming a belt and the right to teach either had or had not received that training in a recognized Isshinryu branch.
It has been my experience that necessity is the mother of cooperation (also known as "when you got 'em by the short and curlies, their hearts and minds will follow").
If a state mandates licensing and establishes a board to certify professionals, the various organizations will find ways to get along to the extent that they can make that happen.
Well, just my opinion, anyway.
OH man I'm telling whomever is selling the fake certs....You REALLY don't want to get Carol Mad at you.....or lend her your maglight
Maglights fear me.
I guess one way would be to have a Government regulated association for all Martial Arts associations and make it law that any practicing association needs to be registered with them. That, in turn, would lead to all members of each association having to be registered on a database which is accessible to all local councils, thus checking the credibility of anyone wishing to teach.
A bit far fetched perhaps, but it is possible.
A bit far fetched perhaps, but it is possible.
I looked at the ad and it wasn't clear to me that he was selling signed certificates. Someone has to print rank certificates. My instructor bought a fancy printer for the purpose but not everyone has one. If he's basically trying to work as a printing service for small-scale instructors that's fair though of course it's very open to abuse. But it's not like he's selling diplomas with HARVARD on them, or even rank certificates with IMAF printed on them.
So, I'm not sure I feel it's that bad. If I misunderstood and they're signed and/or attributed to a particular org., please correct me! I couldn't read the image well enough to see the names at the signature blocks and whether they were placeholder names or if he was putting "Remy Presas" in for a signature (which would be clearly fraudulent).
Maglights fear me.
How many cells does your MagLite have???
There was a guy selling Karate Dan certs in a nice wooden frame for like 35.00..
SensibleManiac
Black Belt
Probably the best that can be done is have some sort of standardized testing for obtaining a license to teach Martial arts safely. Like a safety physical training license, because the problem, yes, is that there are so many different styles but even further what about legitimate teachers of styles who just practice poor instruction and get people injured.
It exists as well.
Very difficult to implement licensing of this sort.
It exists as well.
Very difficult to implement licensing of this sort.
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
I'm kinda with you on this one. You can make a convincing looking certificate on your home computer. Whether the cert on Sensei's wall is real or store bought, how many potential students bother trying to authenticate it? Even if it can be authenticated, what is that authentication really worth?
My chiropractor has a diploma on the wall indicating his standing with the Provincial College. If he doesn't have what he professes to have, he's in real hot water. Whether Sensei Joe's cert came from eBay or a fraudulent association, what are the legal ramifications? Call the BBB. Maybe, a civil suit.
David Weatherly
Black Belt
The other problem is that these type of certificates will always be available somewhere. In the past they were sold in the back of magazines now they're all over the net. Get em' off ebay and there will still be hundreds of places to get them online.
Plumbers and electricians follow the laws of their trade and also science.
Martial Arts form different cultures have different ways of handle the issue.
Some quick reasons why it will not work.
In New York it as proposed because a representative was following up from a man who had molested his students. They thought having a license was the best thing to do. Their proposal was written up by KMA people and arts that had people of 4th degree or higher being able to open a school, with a set curriculum that they had approved. But then the JMA's got involved and they were represented and their techniques were added, but no one knew how to handle weapons. Would it be aged based, as in Adult only, or at your own risk or what have you. Then people like me wrote them letters asking what about the FMA's and some arts that had no rank other than titles, such as Instructor.
If I called an electrician or a plumber I could get within reason similar answers to a sloluton. Depending upon training they might have a newer piece of equipment but in theory it would be very similar.
If I were to ask three different FMA's stylists to answer a question I would get 12 answers with them arguing more and more about the counters to those counters that were three deep. So, how could a Taw Kwon Do and Balintawak systems both live in this environment. One starts out with empty hands and depending upon system or style can learn weapons and concentrate on kicks. They have colored belts and ranks in black. While the other starts with a weapon and has no ranking system.
If there was a single system the world could agree upon then we could have a single licencing that would work.
Otherwise at best it would be like a DBA, go down and spend the $10 bucks and then open up shop, but in this case you might have to spend more money for finger prints and a background check, but in the end it still does nothing to address content of good teachers from bad teachers. Great practitioners might be horrible teachers. Poor Practitioners might be great coaches or teachers.
I cannot see a way for it to work.
*******************************************
As to fake Certs, they happen.
People print them.
people sell them.
It will happen.
This is why a good customer will ask around and look for referrences form other people or will do an internet serch. Some could be toltally off the grid and be local and bee ok teachers, so the person going in needs to understand that where they start may not be where they end up. they might leave for teaching style or content or personal life style change.
Man, I was with you up to here.
No, martial arts instructors shouldn't have licenses. And neither should plumbers. Licensing is a way that the state prevents the introduction of competition into the market place. Those already in business pay the state money to practice their craft and in exchange, the state punishes anyone who attempts to practice that craft without having paid their protection money, and sets strict requirements about who can attain licenses.
It doesn't have anything to do with product quality or customer care. It's a protection racket, built on the use of force, and designed to limit open competition.
Requiring that martial artists get licenses would only end up in increasing customer fees an decreasing the number of options available to the customer. The licensing boards would end up at the mercy of regulatory capture, and those seeking to enter the field would be required to meet unreasonable demands on investment and knowledge.
Who decides whether TKD, Kenpo, or Shaolin Kung Fu are teaching a side kick correctly? Should instructers be required to learn all styles in order to teach any? Who sets the baseline? What about Western Boxing, Fencing, Archery, or other skill sets and systems that are related to martial arts? What is the ultimate goal, sport? Self Defense? Perpetuating a tradition?
Ultimately the customer is responsible for seeking out a trained professional capable of fulfilling his needs, just like in all other commercial transactions. Caveat Emptor. Pushing that responsibility off on the government is a recipe for disaster, and will lead to a worse situation, not a better one.
The solution to this problem is for those martial artists who are offering a quality product to let people know about it. In time, those wanting quality instruction will seek it out. Those wanting to feel better about themselves, lose weight, and learn some air karate will get what they pay for.
-Rob
DragonMind
Yellow Belt
Martial arts schools already have two forms of "licensing": 1) a business license to operate as a commercial venture, and 2) a ranking in a style to function as a teacher. As to whether these function well, is another story. If a fake teacher opens a business and sells fraudulent products, there are already laws on the books to deal with that, both civil and criminal. If someone claims to have a rank in a legitimate art and does not, then the guiding organization is responsible for policing its own. If somebody makes up his own style, it will either sink or swim on its merits. There is no need for additional regulation, with the possible exception of certifying someone's teaching skills independently of style. We require it of other teachers, why not of MA teachers? It could certainly help add some professionalism to the field.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Nope
Because then people like my Yang Sifu who was a student of Tung Ying Chieh and has over 50 years experience in taiji would not teach. The person that was my Wing Chun Sifu (student of Ip Ching) would not teach either and I doubt my Xingyiquan sifu would contiue trying to keep his school open, but he might do it that one is hard to say. Highly unlikely people like Chen Zenglei, Chen Xiaowang, Chen Bing or any of the Chen family would show up here to teach and you might as well rule out Di Guoyong as well. There is a rather impressive Xingyiquan guy in Boston that would likely stop teaching and there is a real deal Yin Style Bagua guy I know of that would likely stop teaching too. And this is just to name a few.
But people like my first Sifu would teach he learned much of his CMA is from a physical education University in China and that stuff is not to bad but it is modern Wushu but these days to make A LOT of money he teaches a lot of stuff he learned form DVDs and films he took in China and make lineage claims he does not have but I guarantee you he would get a license if one were required.
I donĀt know about other styles but that would be the end for many VERY good CMA teachers in the US
Am I reading this right? Do MA instructors in the US not need a licence to teach? Do you not need to be licenced and affiliated with an organization that supports/recognises your chosen art? How about insurance and public liability cover?
In the UK, for as long as I have been an instructor, I have needed to be fully licenced and insured under my associations I am involved with. I need to show these documents to any venue I wish to use to teach in or conduct seminars etc. Am I missing something here?
Xue Sheng, you say those teachers would not teach if they had to be licenced? Why is that?
It strikes me as very odd that one can go around teaching people how to maim and even kill, and not need a licence for it. You do require firearms licences etc?
Excuse my ignorance, I am just unaware of the rules and regs of US law regarding MA teaching and I am finding this fascinating.
Thanks in advance
Regards
John
In the UK, for as long as I have been an instructor, I have needed to be fully licenced and insured under my associations I am involved with. I need to show these documents to any venue I wish to use to teach in or conduct seminars etc. Am I missing something here?
Xue Sheng, you say those teachers would not teach if they had to be licenced? Why is that?
It strikes me as very odd that one can go around teaching people how to maim and even kill, and not need a licence for it. You do require firearms licences etc?
Excuse my ignorance, I am just unaware of the rules and regs of US law regarding MA teaching and I am finding this fascinating.
Thanks in advance
Regards
John
Varies by jurisdiction, but in most places, no. Anyone can hang out a shingle and declare themselves a teacher of whatever.
Most public venues will require a showing of liability insurance. That can be purchased privately. Still no licensing required.
