Dynamics of respect: Kids with higher belts than adults

[Daniel Sullivan]

Once again, why is this post in the TKD forum, i see nothing specific to TKD here, besides you including poom belts. Is it that you only care about this as it concerns TKD, or do you honestly believe that TKD is the only martial art with kid black belts?

If that's what he thinks, he should come visit the local ninjutsu school that has a huge, "We are a blackbelt school!" banner, black belt clubs, kids with pum equivalents (black with a white stripe), teens with black belts, and more belts than some TKD schools.

I have visited and joined a few classes to see what it was like. Their adult classes were pretty good and the instructional staff seems to know what they're doing. I watched the kids and juniors (tweens) classes and they are pretty good for the age groups that are in them. The kids and tweens classes are Ishin Ryu based (says the sensei; I've never trained in Ishin Ryu and couldn't pick it out from other karate styles). If I had young kids interested in the arts, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the school.

But they do have kids under eighteen wearing black belts. For the record, they looked pretty darned good too.

 

[sfs982000]

We have seperate kids classes, but they can start attending the adult classes at 14 I believe. The policy at my school is that everyone treats each other with respect and addresses each other as sir or maam and we all line up in class according to rank so there are younger kids that are black belts that line up at the front of the class. With that being said I believe that there is an age requirement at our school in regards to becoming a certified instructor so the younger black belts will assist with drills, etc...but they do not actually teach the classes.

 

[ETinCYQX]

If that's what he thinks, he should come visit the local ninjutsu school that has a huge, "We are a blackbelt school!" banner, black belt clubs, kids with pum equivalents (black with a white stripe), teens with black belts, and more belts than some TKD schools.

I have visited and joined a few classes to see what it was like. Their adult classes were pretty good and the instructional staff seems to know what they're doing. I watched the kids and juniors (tweens) classes and they are pretty good for the age groups that are in them. The kids and tweens classes are Ishin Ryu based (says the sensei; I've never trained in Ishin Ryu and couldn't pick it out from other karate styles). If I had young kids interested in the arts, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the school.

But they do have kids under eighteen wearing black belts. For the record, they looked pretty darned good too.

I used to hate that kind of stuff, but it's essential to survive these days. Objectively, there's nothing wrong with it, either. Especially if it's quality instruction.

The best example of that here I can think of is a Kenpo/kickboxing club run by a friend of mine from Taekwondo years ago. Kids do textbook Kenpo, graduate to kickboxing as adults.

 

[Gorilla]

By rank...My kids teach classes with adults...all the black belts teach based on expertise!!!!mutual respect of everyone who trains!!!!They also coach adults! They are sought out to coach by other BB's!!!!Age is not an issue it is skill level!!!!

 

[Rumy73]

We line up by rank, age isn't relevant. All adults are Mr/Ms, to the color belts, all black belts (we don't have junior black belts) are Mr/Ms

Rick, nice system.

 

[Rumy73]

Once again, why is this post in the TKD forum, i see nothing specific to TKD here, besides you including poom belts. Is it that you only care about this as it concerns TKD, or do you honestly believe that TKD is the only martial art with kid black belts?

I am primary practicing tkd these days and prefer to share thoughts with those who also do. If you want to post a similar topic somewhere else, by all means.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

When children have higher "rank" than an adult (yes, I am counting Poom belts), what is the dynamic in your school? I would hope there is an appreciation of training on one level but a greater understanding that children should respect their elders. Should children line up behind the adults in a show of respect? Or should position in class be about the belt color?

at our school - there is a great deal of mutual respect between ALL ranks but when it comes to lining up

It goes first by Rank...if a child (poom) and an adult (Dan) have same Dan ranking (1st Dan - for example) - it goes on how many keup tests they've had between 1st and 2nd Dan, if that's the same - then the adult is first and the child is second

Interesting side note....our school actually had a set of twin child black belts once and we're matched dead-even on rank, test date, keup tests - literally in almost every possible way, but if it came down to which of them would be 'ranking student' or who would line up ahead of the other, the twin born at 5 am lined up first, and then the twin born at 5:04 am would line up second...

 

[andyjeffries]

It goes first by Rank...if a child (poom) and an adult (Dan) have same Dan ranking (1st Dan - for example) - it goes on how many keup tests they've had between 1st and 2nd Dan, if that's the same - then the adult is first and the child is second

Sorry KS, I'm confused - do you attend a Kukki-Taekwondo school? You refer to poom ranks (which is a Kukkiwon term) but then say about people having keup tests in between dan grades? If I've understood you correctly, what are your keup tests in between dan ranks?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry KS, I'm confused - do you attend a Kukki-Taekwondo school? You refer to poom ranks (which is a Kukkiwon term) but then say about people having keup tests in between dan grades? If I've understood you correctly, what are your keup tests in between dan ranks?

One of the last schools where I trained started doing this after I had been there for a few years. He and two of the other instructors (at their insistence, might I add) put together a "weapons program," with five forms for each weapon. So after ildan, you tested for staff fifth geub, fourth geub, etc. Then after second dan, it was nunchucku. I think he had like eight or ten forms for that. He then had dao (Chinese broad sword) for third to fourth dan, but he didn't like that weapon so he simply never got anyone started on it.

Overall, I thought that it was a good idea, and it was definitely an example of the instructor enriching the curriculum beyond the KKW requirements.

 

[chrispillertkd]

One of the last schools where I trained started doing this after I had been there for a few years. He and two of the other instructors (at their insistence, might I add) put together a "weapons program," with five forms for each weapon. So after ildan, you tested for staff fifth geub, fourth geub, etc. Then after second dan, it was nunchucku. I think he had like eight or ten forms for that. He then had dao (Chinese broad sword) for third to fourth dan, but he didn't like that weapon so he simply never got anyone started on it.

Overall, I thought that it was a good idea, and it was definitely an example of the instructor enriching the curriculum beyond the KKW requirements.

Who taught them all those weapons patterns?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Who taught them all those weapons patterns?

Pax,

Chris

Most of it was put together by two of the instructors who had used them elsewhere. Originally, it was going to be limited to hapkido, which those instructors also taught, but GM Kim expanded it to taekwondo and kumdo (which was odd, but neither good nor bad). About the only thing that left me scratching my head was the exclusion of the danbong (short stick), which seems to be a staple of hapkido (and which both of them knew). I don't know what they are doing now, as I left there in 2010.

As I said, I had no criticism of the program; I only mentioned it in relation to the geubs between dans question that Andy asked.

 

[WaterGal]

We have students line up by rank - age doesn't matter. We do have seperate kids and adults classes, but we're flexible about it because of people's schedules, families wanting to train together etc, so there can be some mix.

Why is this an issue? Are adults getting ego-hurt about "how come I have to stand to the right of this 12-year old??". I've had a couple times where an older sibling gets whiny about lining up behind their younger sibling, but I'm surprised that adults would be that way. Everybody is going to get to participate equally in the class wherever they're standing - they just might have to wait an extra 20 seconds to kick the target or whatever. It's not about ego, just about being organized, and having the higher-belt be an example to the lower-belts.

As far as respect goes, the kids should definitely respect adults, whatever their rank. We encourage kids to call all adults Ms/Mr ________, whatever their rank, and "sir/ma'am" if the adult is a black belt. We might have an older black belt kid warm up the class, because it's hard to mess up stretching, and then the students (even adults) should call them "sir/ma'am" too.

 

[ks - learning to fly]

Sorry KS, I'm confused - do you attend a Kukki-Taekwondo school? You refer to poom ranks (which is a Kukkiwon term) but then say about people having keup tests in between dan grades? If I've understood you correctly, what are your keup tests in between dan ranks?

Hey Andy ...Our school is WTF Tae Kwon Do - Kukkiwon certified... Our keup tests are essentially review/maintenance stages between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd and so on....for example, I tested for for 1st Degree on 4-7-12 and every 6 months - if I have enough lessons and am recommended - I would have a keup test ---> I had 9th keup test in October 2012 and my 7th keup test will be next month...then 5th, 3rd & 1st before I test for 2nd Degree in April 2015 (provided things keep on track! ) We begin weapons training after we earn our 1st Degree Black Belt (staffs, chucks) and staff forms are a part of the 2nd Degree testing

I hope that helps answer your question...

 

[andyjeffries]

I hope that helps answer your question...

Thanks KS, it does. I've never heard of it before (I don't know any clubs in the UK that do it and have never heard of it being commonplace in Korea) so it sounds very interesting. Thanks for explaining it.

 

[Markku P]

We have students line up by rank - age doesn't matter. We do have seperate kids and adults classes, but we're flexible about it because of people's schedules, families wanting to train together etc, so there can be some mix.

Why is this an issue? Are adults getting ego-hurt about "how come I have to stand to the right of this 12-year old??". I've had a couple times where an older sibling gets whiny about lining up behind their younger sibling, but I'm surprised that adults would be that way. Everybody is going to get to participate equally in the class wherever they're standing - they just might have to wait an extra 20 seconds to kick the target or whatever. It's not about ego, just about being organized, and having the higher-belt be an example to the lower-belts.

As far as respect goes, the kids should definitely respect adults, whatever their rank. We encourage kids to call all adults Ms/Mr ________, whatever their rank, and "sir/ma'am" if the adult is a black belt. We might have an older black belt kid warm up the class, because it's hard to mess up stretching, and then the students (even adults) should call them "sir/ma'am" too.

We do pretty much same way. But we don't use Ms/Mr greetings. It is not in our culture ( Nordic countries )

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

But we don't use Ms/Mr greetings. It is not in our culture ( Nordic countries )

That's interesting to me. I am Canadian but work for an American-headquartered company. I found it really odd that employees refer to the president of the company as "Mr" but no one else. So it would be, "Bob, Mike, and Mr. Smith".

My perception is very un-American I suppose. Americans seem to look at the Mr. as a sign of respect. I think Canadians tend to look at it as disrespectful to treat lower level people poorer than higher level people. I think we Canadians are more egalitarian than Americans (and certainly more than Koreans).

 

[andyjeffries]

Are adults getting ego-hurt about "how come I have to stand to the right of this 12-year old??".

Something jumped out at me there... Your senior grades are on the left?

We line up for example like this:

Master

1d 1d 2d 3d

4k 3k 2k 1k

9k 9k 9k 8k

So if someone lined up to the right of someone else (facing forwards) they would be more senior.

Is this how everyone else lines up?

 

[Cyriacus]

Something jumped out at me there... Your senior grades are on the left?

We line up for example like this:

Master

1d 1d 2d 3d

4k 3k 2k 1k

9k 9k 9k 8k

So if someone lined up to the right of someone else (facing forwards) they would be more senior.

Is this how everyone else lines up?

Thats how we line up -- Except, color belts from the senior classes who attend junior classes (senior/junior rank, not age) line up behind everyone else.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Something jumped out at me there... Your senior grades are on the left?

We line up for example like this:

Master

1d 1d 2d 3d

4k 3k 2k 1k

9k 9k 9k 8k

So if someone lined up to the right of someone else (facing forwards) they would be more senior.

Is this how everyone else lines up?

That's how we line up to. I saw the same thing you did, but honestly I assumed it was a typo.

 

[rlobrecht]

This is how we do it as well. The front right spot is the senior student in the class.

Rick