Dynamic punch

[lklawson]

Who works for style points? I just want to go home and have dinner.

My point being that it's neither impressive nor particularly special in any way. Most goobers off the street can be taught to do this with little to no instruction and many do it naturally. All it take is aggressively moving forward with mediocre straight line punches.

Even worse, someone moderately trained with either a decent guard or decent footwork can easily negate the attack. I can personally document the instruction for doing so in Western Fencing going back to at least the 16th Century, if not earlier and specifically in boxing footwork at least Ned Donnelly in 1879 which is, in a some ways, George Silver applied to Boxing.

It's the bum rush of the punching world.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

My point being that it's neither impressive nor particularly special in any way. Most goobers off the street can be taught to do this with little to no instruction and many do it naturally. All it take is aggressively moving forward with mediocre straight line punches.

Even worse, someone moderately trained with either a decent guard or decent footwork can easily negate the attack. I can personally document the instruction for doing so in Western Fencing going back to at least the 16th Century, if not earlier and specifically in boxing footwork at least Ned Donnelly in 1879 which is, in a some ways, George Silver applied to Boxing.

It's the bum rush of the punching world.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Ok, two issues here. The first, whether it is a low-skill tactic. So what if it is? (Edit: this is a premise that I disagree with, but for the sake of discussion, ok) If it works, if it gets you home safe, what more is needed? When it comes to defending your life or that of your family, whatever works is what matters. I think it is easy to fall into a mindset that we need to show some elevated level of skill when defending ourselves. We don’t. We just want to go home. It most definitely does not need to be elegant or beautiful or perfect.

Second issue, whether it is easily countered. I don’t believe it is, IF the timing is right and it is used appropriately. If the timing is wrong, if it is initiated at the wrong moment, if it is used in a scenario where it is not appropriate, then it is easily countered. Like anything.

 

[lklawson]

Ok, two issues here. The first, whether it is a low-skill tactic. So what if it is? (Edit: this is a premise that I disagree with, but for the sake of discussion, ok) If it works, if it gets you home safe, what more is needed? When it comes to defending your life or that of your family, whatever works is what matters. I think it is easy to fall into a mindset that we need to show some elevated level of skill when defending ourselves. We don’t. We just want to go home. It most definitely does not need to be elegant or beautiful or perfect.

On that, I agree.

Second issue, whether it is easily countered. I don’t believe it is,

We'll have to disagree.

IF the timing is right and it is used appropriately. If the timing is wrong, if it is initiated at the wrong moment, if it is used in a scenario where it is not appropriate, then it is easily countered. Like anything.

Well, yeah. But I don't think it's that hard to do with just a little bit of training. You know, "green belt"-ish.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, yeah. But I don't think it's that hard to do with just a little bit of training. You know, "green belt"-ish.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Sure, just like a punch. Easy to counter with a little bit of training, like green belt-ish.

A punch can be delivered with low skill or high skill or anywhere in between.

Same with the charge punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My point being that it's neither impressive nor particularly special in any way. Most goobers off the street can be taught to do this with little to no instruction and many do it naturally. All it take is aggressively moving forward with mediocre straight line punches.

The punch is basic. I'm interested in the footwork.

1. You throw a right groin kick followed by a right face punch. your opponent moves back.
2. You use your left stiff arm as your guard, use a skip jumping footwork to obtain distance (this is the interested part).
3. You then land with right foot with right punch on your opponent's face.

IMO, the footwork makes perfect logic sense.

In the original form, 2 is just a skip (left foot advance, right foot skip, left foot advance again). I like the way he added a jump into it. By adding a jump, I can reach to a maximum of 18 feet distance (I may be able to reach to 20 feet distance if I'm younger).

I try to find something worthwhile to train in MA. The long distance footwork is one of my favor areas.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Look at the second page, the dedication, right after the Special Thanks portion. Does that name look familiar?

I thought about it but didn't know if it was you are not...lol. I was hoping some one passed down the old boxing techniques, but that stuff is difficult to find.

There's one version that pulls back the hand but it wasn't favored or popular because, as noted, it telegraphs.

There are others which are more similar to a fencing or knife-fighting Back-cut. I like those much better.

I should also note that for a period of time, "the swing" was considered an inferior technique and linear punches were superior. This would have been roughly in the middle to the end of the London Prize Ring rules period.

Thanks for the info. I'll keep my eyes open for this stuff. I'm always interested in long forgotten boxing techniques. Sometimes I think it's like Kung fu where how to actually use the technique has been lost and when people try, they get the mechanics of it wrong. They often look ineffective. When I look at the old boxing films it's like the earliest videos look like old techniques then 10 years later an entirely different looking boxing moving similar to modern boxing. It's as if there was a big jump and advancement. I don't understand how the boxing advancement jumped so quickly jumped so quickly. So I'm thinking there's some interesting bits that just wasn't caught on film.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I thought about it but didn't know if it was you are not...lol. I was hoping some one passed down the old boxing techniques, but that stuff is difficult to find.


Thanks for the info. I'll keep my eyes open for this stuff. I'm always interested in long forgotten boxing techniques. Sometimes I think it's like Kung fu where how to actually use the technique has been lost and when people try, they get the mechanics of it wrong. They often look ineffective. When I look at the old boxing films it's like the earliest videos look like old techniques then 10 years later an entirely different looking boxing moving similar to modern boxing. It's as if there was a big jump and advancement. I don't understand how the boxing advancement jumped so quickly jumped so quickly. So I'm thinking there's some interesting bits that just wasn't caught on film.

CMA foot work is always misleading. It doesn't look like much when viewing from the outside, but facing in person "confuses the brain." when the brain isn't used to what it's seeing then the mind will take longer to process what it going on.

When I sparred against people who were familiar with long fist, I could easily see confusion on my opponent's face and how their brain was trying to figure it out instead of trying to attack me. Even with my brother, cross steps and strange things that he's never seen before gives him pause.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Even with my brother, cross steps and strange things that he's never seen before gives him pause.

The stealing step (cross step) is useful in sparring. In one of my sparring, I jumped forward, but my fist could not reach to my opponent's face. When I land my back foot behind my leading foot, my fist could land on my opponent's face.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The stealing step (cross step) is useful in sparring. In one of my sparring, I jumped forward, but my fist could not reach to my opponent's face. When I land my back foot behind my leading foot, my fist could land on my opponent's face.

That's one of my favorite parts.. I don't know anything about it other than it moves well lol. I should have tried to use it before I got kicked out of the school lol.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's one of my favorite parts.. I don't know anything about it other than it moves well lol. I should have tried to use it before I got kicked out of the school lol.

What's your opinion of the Gong Li Chuan "3 rings catch the moon"? That combo is quite unique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What's your opinion of the Gong Li Chuan "3 rings catch the moon"? That combo is quite unique.

Students in the school were taught that form so that we would learn to be big with our Jow Ga. My SiFu back then wanted us to relax and really stretch. This is one of the parts where I would really try to give a good reach. It always felt like I was chasing someone down.

The entire form is like one big form of missing power so every movement is like a lesson in creating the power. I will admit. "3 rings catch the moon" was more about relaxing for me. but I like the advancing footwlr. 1 step doubles the distance of the previous stance., the higher the distance the shorter the advance the lower the stance the longer the distance. This is cool for me since I fight at different stance heights.

 

[Balas Sermas]

One thing that I don't understand is why this kind of footwork and punching combo doesn't exist in any MA form? I would love to create a form that contain this footwork and punching combo.

I would literally just pivot it or sidestep it, it's extremely predictable unlike dashing opponent that fly into rage. The idiot didn't because he rather poorly trained at boxing. If you put prime Mike Tyson there I am definitely convinced he would actually in fact most effortlessly dodge it along with Muhammad Ali and dynamically punish. Usually many kickboxers and MMA fighters have rather poorly trained in boxing due to their teachers also being ultimately awful and not remembering the boxing fundamentals but many boxing coaches suck big time today and can't teach you even how to stepback and step forward. Steppubakku and pivot is fundamental essential. I was recently trained by a kickboxer adequately to in truth really notice that he definitely doesn't teach much technique-execution, sparring and footwork. He was just a former nightclub bouncer and not a boxer.

My former purely-boxing coach was far better but was gravely mistake when he claimed to me that is better to keep the front leg straight to "have better balance" but at the other stuff such as teaching me how to execute a cross and a jab he was stellar. We adequately sparred too and I was literally exposed to pressure testing. The only sparring I did with my recent trainer was me willingly participating with his son that I dominated by keeping my distance Muhammad Ali style but I kinda gased out (no worries, he did too).

 

[Flying Crane]

I would literally just pivot it or sidestep it, it's extremely predictable unlike dashing opponent that fly into rage. The idiot didn't because he rather poorly trained at boxing. If you put prime Mike Tyson there I am definitely convinced he would actually in fact most effortlessly dodge it along with Muhammad Ali and dynamically punish. Usually many kickboxers and MMA fighters have rather poorly trained in boxing due to their teachers also being ultimately awful and not remembering the boxing fundamentals but many boxing coaches suck big time today and can't teach you even how to stepback and step forward. Steppubakku and pivot is fundamental essential. I was recently trained by a kickboxer adequately to in truth really notice that he definitely doesn't teach much technique-execution, sparring and footwork. He was just a former nightclub bouncer and not a boxer.

Of course.

 

[Balas Sermas]

Of course.

Reread, man. I clarified it further. You have any logical retort besides your illogical sarcasm? I mean, yeah technically we all are planning until we get punched in the face but if you have the right mentality and you admitted in your head you are going to dominate that hard punch and pivot it's really not a problem. Mike Tyson did with his tight defense style while taking punches (colloquially known as "peek-a-boo").

Also there is a thing called "blocking" if you are off-balance to pivot.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The idiot didn't because he rather poorly trained at boxing. If you put prime Mike Tyson there I am definitely convinced he would actually in fact most effortlessly dodge it along with Muhammad Ali and dynamically punish.

Mike tyson would have pressed his opponent. He only knew to go forward. His greatest strength (pressing the fight) was also his greatest weakness (not knowing how retreate). So with that in mind. Here's where tyson gets KOed in the 10th round. Buster Douglass presses him with a similar charge punch in which Tyson just goes backwards. 10th round KO..

Just so you don't think it's a fluke you can see similar cases where He just goes straight back and doesn't cut an angle. I like Tyson's because a lot of his foot work is similar to what Jow Ga Kung Fu uses in terms of the shuffle punches and flat foot punching. But I don't think his fighting style trained him to fight backwards, which is fair because he won the majority of his fights by moving forward and not backwards. My guess is when he goes backwards, his brain says goes forward which is hard for him to do when he's getting tagged linearly.

Muhammad Ali was a different fighter. He enjoyed fighting backwards and around. He knew when he was in trouble before he was actually in trouble. Here you can see him get tagged and instead of trying to press forward, he pops out, resets. But on the opposite side, you can see how his opponents just go backwards, they don't try to cut angles to get out of the way.

I don't think getting off the line while moving backwards is trained as much as it should be. Most people train to get off the line while moving forward, but don't train to get off the center line while moving backwards. Wing Chun practitioners often make this mistake. Boxers make this mistake as well..

Usually many kickboxers and MMA fighters have rather poorly trained in boxing due to their teachers also being ultimately awful and not remembering the boxing fundamentals but many boxing coaches suck big time today and can't teach you even how to stepback and step forward.

Wow this is harsh . If most fighters can't fight going backwards then it only makes sense to overwhelm them by pressing forward. Even traditional martial arts speak of attacking with aggressiveness. But some also talk about waiting for the right moment.

 

[Flying Crane]

Reread, man. I clarified it further. You have any logical retort besides your illogical sarcasm? I mean, yeah technically we all are planning until we get punched in the face but if you have the right mentality and you admitted in your head you are going to dominate that hard punch and pivot it's really not a problem. Mike Tyson did with his tight defense style while taking punches (colloquially known as "peek-a-boo").

Also there is a thing called "blocking" if you are off-balance to pivot.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

most fighters can't fight going backward...

Most MA systems don't train punching when moving backward.

 

[Flying Crane]

Most MA systems don't train punching when moving backward.

I train charge punch running backwards. And yes, it is in at least one of our forms.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most MA systems don't train punching when moving backward.

Which makes sense to me to why so many say press forward. I trained students to use techniques forward and backwards.

I train charge punch running backwards. And yes, it is in at least one of our forms.

We have it in multiple forms, including our beginner form. We also have one similar to Muhammad Ali where he pops back a step. That one quick step back keeps the second charge punch from landing and dazing the person.

You can see the punching while moving backwards in this form. For us, punching backwards is less about retreating and more about luring someone in. If someone charges in, then that means "they have taken the bait." My personal thoughts are less complex, sometimes you have to get away quickly from a combo. Being able to fight wile moving in multiple directions is important.

 

[Flying Crane]

Which makes sense to me to why so many say press forward. I trained students to use techniques forward and backwards.

We have it in multiple forms, including our beginner form. We also have one similar to Muhammad Ali where he pops back a step. That one quick step back keeps the second charge punch from landing and dazing the person.

You can see the punching while moving backwards in this form. For us, punching backwards is less about retreating and more about luring someone in. If someone charges in, then that means "they have taken the bait." My personal thoughts are less complex, sometimes you have to get away quickly from a combo. Being able to fight wile moving in multiple directions is important.

A couple of steps back, just before the end in that form?