Double-ends/speed ball routines for WC

[lansao]

You need to learn how to fight with handcuff on.

Still doesn’t explain interlocking breaking fingers. Would rather cusp my fist with the other hand.

In all practicality, I’d submit to avoid a taser or worse.

 

[pdg]

The reason that you interlock your hands is to combine your 2 arms as 1 unit. If you are as strong as your opponent, your 2 arms should be stronger than his 1 arm. If your opponent can pull down your double arms, he can pull down your single arm

If he pulls down your single arm, you still have one arm remaining to deal with the next punch.

One arm pulling down is stronger than two arms going up, especially at those angles.

I can (just about) do (a couple of) one arm pull-ups.

I can't even pretend to do one arm handstand push-ups, and two arms is a struggle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Still doesn’t explain interlocking breaking fingers. Would rather cusp my fist with the other hand.

In all practicality, I’d submit to avoid a taser or worse.

It's trade off. I have tried.

1. interlocking fingers.
2. tiger mouth hold tiger mouth.
3. hand hold on wrist.
4. fists touch together.
5. palm touch palm.
6. ...

So far 1 is still the strongest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If he pulls down your single arm, you still have one arm remaining to deal with the next punch.

One arm pulling down is stronger than two arms going up, especially at those angles.

I can (just about) do (a couple of) one arm pull-ups.

I can't even pretend to do one arm handstand push-ups, and two arms is a struggle.

Please do me a favor. Get your training partner and test this and to see how hard it is to use 1 arm to pull down your opponent's double arms.

All WC guys use Tan Shou.The rhino guard is just "double Tan Shou". If you have confidence in your single Tan Shou, you should also have confidence on your double Tan Shou.

 

[lansao]

Back to double-ends, any thoughts on using it to practice pak/linear deflections?

 

[pdg]

Please do me a favor. Get your training partner and test this and to see how hard it is to use 1 arm to pull down your opponent's double arms.

Well, not sure if it counts because boxing gloves on both parties, but...

Many times, I can pull down their double hand high guard with one hand, then use the same hand in a circular motion to backfist to head.

And that's on guys bigger than me.

Issues with me doing that include:

Them now knowing I might try it and getting a kick in.

Being told it's a foul (I can do it 'legally' in tkd sparring, but the kickboxing I do seems to have much tighter rules in some regards).

 

[lansao]

Well, not sure if it counts because boxing gloves on both parties, but...

Many times, I can pull down their double hand high guard with one hand, then use the same hand in a circular motion to backfist to head.

And that's on guys bigger than me.

Issues with me doing that include:

Them now knowing I might try it and getting a kick in.

Being told it's a foul (I can do it 'legally' in tkd sparring, but the kickboxing I do seems to have much tighter rules in some regards).

K1?

 

[pdg]

K1?

IKF, but possibly restricted ruleset in class sparring.



Edit: kind of like the American kickboxing rules (above the waist), mixed with semi contact point rules (but continuous, not point-stop). In class at least...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many times, I can pull down their double hand high guard with one hand, then use the same hand in a circular motion to backfist to head.

And that's on guys bigger than me.

Not saying it's absolute impossible. The downward pull always have gravity advantage over the upward resistance. The moment that your opponent tries to pull down your rhino guard, the moment your rhino guard will change into "double spears - 2 inward circles". You borrow your opponent's downward pulling and hook punch (or hay-maker) back to his head.

 

[Danny T]

I don't know how that can be possible. Which arm are you talking about?

Left. I use a hook or a straight punch often to set up a spinning back fist or elbow.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Left. I use a hook or a straight punch often to set up a spinning back fist or elbow.

So you are saying that after a right hook punch, his body will rotate to the left and end with a left spin back fist. IMO, when he does that, his back will be exposed to his opponent.

 

[lansao]

IKF, but possibly restricted ruleset in class sparring.



Edit: kind of like the American kickboxing rules (above the waist), mixed with semi contact point rules (but continuous, not point-stop). In class at least...

Very cool, will check it out.

 

[Danny T]

So you are saying that after a right hook punch, his body will rotate to the left and end with a left spin back fist. IMO, when he does that, his back will be exposed to his opponent.

 

[pdg]

So you are saying that after a right hook punch, his body will rotate to the left and end with a left spin back fist. IMO, when he does that, his back will be exposed to his opponent.

Exposing your back isn't the end of the world, unless you turn around and just stand there...

Occasionally it's very bad news, occasionally it's the absolute best option - oftentimes it's just somewhere between.

 

[wckf92]

Your (OP) original question was about speed balls. For me, nope. But, double end balls/bags are pretty good at working your timing and accuracy, whether alone or with some partner assistance.

 

[pdg]

Also back on topic, I'd like to get a double end bag/ball soon.

And, one of those hats with a tennis ball on elastic

 

[wckf92]

And, one of those hats with a tennis ball on elastic

Yup. I have one of those and it is humbling to say the least! Obviously I modified the drill to suit WC (essentially converting the boxers punch into vertical fist, elbows down, etc). But, that little thing is AWESOME for training/developing amazing eye/hand coordination, timing, accuracy, etc. And, mine comes with a convenient snap link so when not using it as the punch trainer...you can unsnap it, and hook it onto a supporting device from above and let it hang down to act as an nice target for long pole bil / thrust accuracy drills!

 

[geezer]

The reason that you interlock your hands is to combine your 2 arms as 1 unit.

The rhino guard can't do much for the kick. You still need to use your leg to deal with your opponent's kick.

I don't see any advantageto interlocking the fingers. You can join your hands strongly without interlocking the fingers- which can prevent you from separating your hands quickly if necessary. So if one hand is knocked down, you can separate your hands and bring the other up to cover.

If both your arms are locked together as a unit, both can be deflected as a unit with a strong pak sau or double jut sau. Then your opponent takes centerline and can easily get through your defense. Yat fook yee -- using one to control two.

I played around with your Rhino Guard and found it really useful against a student I called "Vice-Grip" Eddie who, although only about 5'6" tall had huge Popeye forearms and one of the strongest grips of anybody I've known.

One day I was using this guy to show how to effortlessly break away from someone grabbing both wrists and jerking you off balance. Against Vice-Grip Eddie, at full resistance, the usual huen-sau and jut-sau releases were a struggle. But by clapping my hands together (not interlacing the fingers!) in a variant of your Rhino guard, I had all the structural stability I needed to step in and turn, rolling my elbow over his arm and easily break his grip, trap his arms under mine, then separate my hands to elbow or fak sau his face at will. This has become a staple S-D technique in my school.

 

[pdg]

Yup. I have one of those and it is humbling to say the least! Obviously I modified the drill to suit WC (essentially converting the boxers punch into vertical fist, elbows down, etc). But, that little thing is AWESOME for training/developing amazing eye/hand coordination, timing, accuracy, etc. And, mine comes with a convenient snap link so when not using it as the punch trainer...you can unsnap it, and hook it onto a supporting device from above and let it hang down to act as an nice target for long pole bil / thrust accuracy drills!

Aside from the actual benefits, they just look fun.

And I do think the most fun thing would be taking it to class and saying "here, try this"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't see any advantageto interlocking the fingers. You can join your hands strongly without interlocking the fingers- which can prevent you from separating your hands quickly if necessary.

One has to learn how to walk before to learn how to run. The rhino guard and zombie guard are interchangeable.

The rhino guard is designed for the beginners (or wrestles who has no striking art training). It helps them to build up confidence. The stronger their rhino guard that they can feel, the more confidence that they will have that their heads can be better protected. The main purpose for it is to not allow opponent's punch to go through between the arms.

The zombie guard is designed for more advances. It doesn't fully close the front door. But at this level, if your opponent tries to punch in through the front door (between arms), a small arm rotation can redirect that punch to the side door. Since zombie guard doesn't lock the fingers, it has more mobility.