KangTsai
2nd Black Belt
>implying he doesn't just get pushed over like a stage 43 jenga tower with one block left as the base.
Don't teach Judo if you don't know Judo
- Thread starter frank raud
- Start date
That's a reasonable point. The error in the leg sweep, though, should make it pretty much useless against anyone except someone you've just hit hard enough to stun them. You'd think he'd have discovered that with his training partners at some point. The drop seoi nage, okay there are situations where that one will still work. And maybe it is just that his striking and movement is good enough that he gets away with really crappy grappling (at least in some techniques - we haven't seen others), though his record suggests he doesn't get away with it all that often.
Yes, as it is online instruction, more talking may compensate the lack of personal advice and so on. But if someone wants to get my attention, l need to be impressed by the technique first, then the speech.
Starting step by step while talking seems like he his still training himself and showing the partner how he should facilitate the move... THEN, it 'works'. It is a general observation, concerning also class trainings.
(Once I was instructor. I know both sides. And the advantage Of step-by-step-talking-first is it prevents injuries and embarassement).
Last edited:
Oh, I agree entirely about needing to show the technique first. In fact my wife and I both (at different times) when first watching that video, basically said, "Okay, enough jabber - show us what you're talking about. Then you can jabber."
I hit "post" before I was done. Need more coffee...
Anyway, your point is well-made. A solid tenet of adult learning is that they need to see a model of the task before you can communicate much about it. So, it's best if they see the new technique "at speed", then are told the details about it while it's demonstrated more slowly.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2015
- Messages
- 2,103
- Reaction score
- 482
That isn't supposed to go to the ground and if it does, you are supposed to keep your forehead on their shoulder. There were times where he had to put his hand out on the matt to prevent his own head from slamming into the floor. That is all wrong and you can end up hurting yourself.
I honestly get annoyed when MMA guys think they know judo and try to teach it because these mistakes can end up hurting people. If your hit your forehead on the floor because you failed to keep it around their shoulder you can end up hurting yourself more than the other person.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2015
- Messages
- 2,103
- Reaction score
- 482
This is how it is done. There is no need to go to the ground because them hitting the floor will more than often be enough to wreck them. The floor is usually going to be concrete or asphalt ect unless you are in a sport environment. So naturally you wouldn't want to risk falling their yourself.
He made some good ideas with the underhook being on the tricep though, since they may not always be wearing sleeves for you to grab onto.
Guys, my judo is far from rusty. I can tell you specifically, Gerry, that anyone who tries to throw Osoto while on their heels is, as you said, batsh*t crazy. At no point are you on your heels, as on your heels is where off-balance lives, an to throw someone they need to be off-balance (i.e. kuzushi).
The second throw he did actually resembled a halfway decent ashi-guruma, but since he thinks he's doing Osotogari, he gets no cred. Compliant uke, too, thus why he's not getting a ushirogoshi, uranage, or a simple deashi barai in the entry phase.
I agree with Frank. But here's the cool thing... I could, and I'm no judo savant or anything, just 2d in that, but I could walk in there and play with those guys and they'd think I was Mifune's younger American grandnephew or something. It'd be really fun to see one of the good old guys wearing a tattered old black belt get in there and say something like....
"What is that you are teaching? Hmmmm.... Can you show me? Hmmm... it doesn't seem to be working. May I try?"
Bam. Bam. Bam, bam, bam-bam-bam bambambam.
"I actually think that is the way that is supposed to work."
The second throw he did actually resembled a halfway decent ashi-guruma, but since he thinks he's doing Osotogari, he gets no cred. Compliant uke, too, thus why he's not getting a ushirogoshi, uranage, or a simple deashi barai in the entry phase.
I agree with Frank. But here's the cool thing... I could, and I'm no judo savant or anything, just 2d in that, but I could walk in there and play with those guys and they'd think I was Mifune's younger American grandnephew or something. It'd be really fun to see one of the good old guys wearing a tattered old black belt get in there and say something like....
"What is that you are teaching? Hmmmm.... Can you show me? Hmmm... it doesn't seem to be working. May I try?"
Bam. Bam. Bam, bam, bam-bam-bam bambambam.
"I actually think that is the way that is supposed to work."
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,943
- Reaction score
- 8,690
For mma you go to ground because otherwise they stand back up. Making the throw pretty worthless.
Gerry, you said jabber... so did your wife, apparently. I find that oddly amusing.
Slight disagreement with IronBear... on forehead placement. Properly executed Osoto is far from being sutemi-waza, it's not a sacrifice throw. You should not need to give over your standing just to make the throw "go." Granted, working in a randori, or competition, or fight situation, nothing is ever perfect, so the additional F you can generate by adding the G component will typically let you break the N coefficient (any physics degree holders but me here? Sorry. Force, Gravity, and Normal frictional component of feet on the mat/ground). If you have good kuzushi, and your entry is clean, the structure's physics takes over and they can't remain erect and fall. Sometimes that's clean, sometimes it's ugly, but they do fall. You "should" still be standing as they are falling.
I know Wang's out here and yes, the throwed could grasp and pull you with, that happens, but you should be attempting, perhaps without success, to keep standing.
And, for Drop, if all you do is throw the guy, and he lands with a satisfying thump on the mat flat on his back (a win, ippon, for judo but that's the only venue where it is the winner), and you don't follow through witht he ransition from standing to ground, all you've done is irritate the dude, AND let him know that you've got throwing skills. For me, I've yet to have a person who I've just nailed with an Osoto be able to really react in less than second and a half-ish, during which time I can slip into a jujigatame armbar, since that's so conveniently available. Get it on a cognizant opponent? Much harder. But, on someone who is having to reorient to the situation that, now that their head is ringing and reality just... turned 90 degrees in phase, it's plenty of time. For you kinda mean MMA people, hitting the Osoto should give you that same time frame to fall, literally, into mount and go into ground & pound, though for me it's far less elegant.
ironBear's right about throwing people on non-sport surfaces... fights over if they hit at all wrong. There's a youtube out there of a cop who gets attacked and he slips the strike, steps in, you can tell it's programmed, and hits the attacker with an Osoto and drops him out in the street. Problem was, they were close to a curb.... bad guy landed sort of flat as the cop was obviously a trained judo person at least somewhere back in his training, but the guy fell partially on.... and partially off... the curb. He did not move afterwards, although he was conscious. I shudder to think of the orthopedic surgeon's bill to fix all of what just took place.
Slight disagreement with IronBear... on forehead placement. Properly executed Osoto is far from being sutemi-waza, it's not a sacrifice throw. You should not need to give over your standing just to make the throw "go." Granted, working in a randori, or competition, or fight situation, nothing is ever perfect, so the additional F you can generate by adding the G component will typically let you break the N coefficient (any physics degree holders but me here? Sorry. Force, Gravity, and Normal frictional component of feet on the mat/ground). If you have good kuzushi, and your entry is clean, the structure's physics takes over and they can't remain erect and fall. Sometimes that's clean, sometimes it's ugly, but they do fall. You "should" still be standing as they are falling.
I know Wang's out here and yes, the throwed could grasp and pull you with, that happens, but you should be attempting, perhaps without success, to keep standing.
And, for Drop, if all you do is throw the guy, and he lands with a satisfying thump on the mat flat on his back (a win, ippon, for judo but that's the only venue where it is the winner), and you don't follow through witht he ransition from standing to ground, all you've done is irritate the dude, AND let him know that you've got throwing skills. For me, I've yet to have a person who I've just nailed with an Osoto be able to really react in less than second and a half-ish, during which time I can slip into a jujigatame armbar, since that's so conveniently available. Get it on a cognizant opponent? Much harder. But, on someone who is having to reorient to the situation that, now that their head is ringing and reality just... turned 90 degrees in phase, it's plenty of time. For you kinda mean MMA people, hitting the Osoto should give you that same time frame to fall, literally, into mount and go into ground & pound, though for me it's far less elegant.
ironBear's right about throwing people on non-sport surfaces... fights over if they hit at all wrong. There's a youtube out there of a cop who gets attacked and he slips the strike, steps in, you can tell it's programmed, and hits the attacker with an Osoto and drops him out in the street. Problem was, they were close to a curb.... bad guy landed sort of flat as the cop was obviously a trained judo person at least somewhere back in his training, but the guy fell partially on.... and partially off... the curb. He did not move afterwards, although he was conscious. I shudder to think of the orthopedic surgeon's bill to fix all of what just took place.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2015
- Messages
- 2,103
- Reaction score
- 482
Yeah of course. Osoto Geri is not supposed to go to the ground, I am saying doing the variation he is doing, (if you can even call it a variation) it would make more sense to dig your forehead into the shoulder that way you don't have to put your hand out to catch your fall.
I mean imagine if someone did this on concrete or asphalt and they did that. They would probably break their hand or something or at least damage it in some way. The guy also forgot to mention to tug them a bit sideways so their balance ends up on one leg. It is very difficult to get this throw if they are standing on both legs with even weight distribution.
This honestly looks like a wrestler who looked up judo on YouTube, tried it a couple of times and thinks he's got it. I been seeing that so much lately and I hate to point fingers but it mostly comes from the MMA crowds.
The funny thing here is. He could have still done the hip throw. you don't need them to be grabbing your lapel to make it work. If he is stiff arming you it can still be done too. He just wanted to the guy to be 100% compliant and "give him the throw." That's all fine with a new student but this guy is supposedly a black belt.
Then the attitudes and easily lost tempers after ward. Ugh it's a shame these specific individuals are even instructing anyone.
Oh my mistake, he was a blue belt. Well looks like he won't be advancing to purple with that attitude.
Last edited:
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,943
- Reaction score
- 8,690
They are mucking around. Not a real vid.
Actually, the other guy was being difficult on purpose. He was using weight shifts to stifle the throw, and was reacting to exactly what the guy told him was about to happen. That's easy to deal with when you can go to another technique, and can sometimes be worked around when you're moving dynamically, but during a demonstration of a specific technique from a static position, that's a douche move.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2015
- Messages
- 2,103
- Reaction score
- 482
I don't know man, he didn't even use his hips at all in the throw. It looked like he was just trying to throw the guy with arms and shoulders which wouldn't work. I only have had a uke be fully compliant when I am first shown a throw, from then on it was resistance being applied because no one is going to just let you throw them.
If what you say is true though I would have said "OK, I'll do it on someone else, this guy here is too cool for school." Instead of getting pissed off and picking a fight with him. I am not believing it because when someone stiff arms me on seoi nage (sorry if I butchered that spelling.) I can still do it because you pivot around the stiff arm while holding that arms wrist and using your other to grab their shirt or gi. Bend your knees and get your hips lower then their center of gravity, pull them in and just stand up straight quickly in a smooth motion.
And over they go depsite being a chingon. Sure the guy may have been a jerk but you can still do judo on jerks, that what is was made for.
But doing any technique in demonstration mode (from a static start, going for a specific technique) when someone is stopping that technique? Unlikely, if they have any real skill and know the principles of the technique. You need something to force them into the position needed, and if you only have one choice (which is all you have when demonstrating a specific technique), then they can take that one choice away. If I know a hip throw is coming, and it's coming from a static start, I can make it impossible to do that technique from that position, unless they put in a setup (hit me, start toward another technique, etc.) or are strong enough to do it without the principles of the technique.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2015
- Messages
- 2,103
- Reaction score
- 482
You can easily do that without making it a sacrifice throw.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2014
- Messages
- 23,943
- Reaction score
- 8,690
Not if the guy can fall. Because as soon as he is going down he is standing up. It is just one of those tweeks that MMA do.
I can't think of a throw that does not bury a guy into the ground and then secures them there.
A throw has a lot of risk to perform because you get bashed doing it. That is fine if the trade off is you can rain elbows on a guy. Not good if they can stand back up. Or just counter the throw and remain standing.
As drop bear notes, that was a play-acting skit of sorts, not a real event.
The sacrifice is the fastest way down, and it times with the throw, automatically. It also lends power to the throw.
