don't have any KKW certificate

[Manny]

I don't have any Kukiwon black belt certificate and don't know how this can afect my TKD carrer. My first dan black belt certificate is from JiDoKwan Veracruz, the dojang I used to learn and train tkd, my second degree black belt is form Hwarang Tae Kwon Do my actual dojang, as long as I keep with Hwarang Tae kwon Do and climbing in the dan ladder my dojang will recognized my grades and certificate but if I go out Hwarang organization maybe other dojang will not take my certificates.

How critical is this? Should I get Kukiwon dan certificate? should I have to go to Korea to do examination again? how dificult is to obtain my first and secon dan certificates form kukiwon?

Manny

 

[terryl965]

Manny it is not what other people want, it is what you want. If you believe you do than get it and if not do not. Is it hard no you need to find someone that has a KKW 4th or higher to promote you and pay the fee's associated with it, just for the record KKW does not charge 1,000 of dollars for them so if a Master is telling you this find someone else.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I don't have any Kukiwon black belt certificate and don't know how this can afect my TKD carrer. My first dan black belt certificate is from JiDoKwan Veracruz, the dojang I used to learn and train tkd, my second degree black belt is form Hwarang Tae Kwon Do my actual dojang, as long as I keep with Hwarang Tae kwon Do and climbing in the dan ladder my dojang will recognized my grades and certificate but if I go out Hwarang organization maybe other dojang will not take my certificates.

How critical is this? Should I get Kukiwon dan certificate? should I have to go to Korea to do examination again? how dificult is to obtain my first and secon dan certificates form kukiwon?

Manny

Unless you want to compete in the Olympics the need for a KKW certificate borders on the non-existent.

If you transfer schools and the new school isn't affiliated with your current organization then having a KKW might help make the transition smoother but you've already mentioned that you have a first dan certificate from one school and a second dan from your current school. You didn't mention any trouble transfering from the first school to the second so it might be the same in the future if you didn't have a KKW.

There are lots of organizations out there offering certificates. Basically, it's a way to standardize the material (and to some extent skills) of the practitioners affiliated with them. There has been a push on recently, from what I have seen, by the KKW to standardize poomse performance. If your school is interested in conforming to KKW standards then you'd obviously pick up a KKW along the way. If you have no interest in following the KKW standard then there's really no need for one. (The reason I am certified by the ITF is because I'm interested in following the standard left by Gen. Choi as closely as I can.)

Pax,

Chris

 

[bluewaveschool]

Maybe I should whip up some house certs to give my BB if they travel off to other places. Thats the one thing we've never done, had a piece of paper saying 'X has reached 2nd Dan' or whatever. Would any of you give more weight to a piece of paper that is just in-house and not connected to any org?

 

[Gorilla]

We have had to change schools 3 times do to circumstances. The first question that the potential instructor asked is what rank and the second was are they KKW certified. The KKW cert has come in handy!

Your rank will be recognized at KKW affiliated schools.

Your skills will always be recognized whether you have a certificate or not!!!!

 

[Gemini]

We have had to change schools 3 times do to circumstances. The first question that the potential instructor asked is what rank and the second was are they KKW certified. The KKW cert has come in handy!

Your rank will be recognized at KKW affiliated schools.

Your skills will always be recognized whether you have a certificate or not!!!!

This is exactly why I've changed my mind and decided to promote to 4th Dan even though I had previously decided not to. Will it make me a better teacher? No. Better practitioner? Nope. However, to Gorilla's point, it's the first thing my peers want to know and right or wrong, are judging me by. It's understandable since they don't know me otherwise, so it's the only thing they can judge me by. Because my future plans may well be impacted by my interactions with these peers within this same organization, it's in my interest and thereby my students interest, to follow through with it.

Manny, to your question, I would never tell you that you have to or should but...
if you walked into some schools that have the same policy as mine and met the qualifications of a certain level even from a different organization, you would be acknowledged accordingly. If you could not meet the qualifications, regardless of previous certification outside my organization, I would place you at a level I felt was comparable to your training at my discretion. Take it or leave it.
Once you leave any organization and try to move into another, you're taking your chances. That said, certification is only an indicator of what you accomplished within a given organization. If you're going to join that new organization, it makes sense to certify with that organization. If not...than why bother.

 

[msmitht]

This is exactly why I've changed my mind and decided to promote to 4th Dan even though I had previously decided not to. Will it make me a better teacher? No. Better practitioner? Nope. However, to Gorilla's point, it's the first thing my peers want to know and right or wrong, are judging me by. It's understandable since they don't know me otherwise, so it's the only thing they can judge me by. Because my future plans may well be impacted by my interactions with these peers within this same organization, it's in my interest and thereby my students interest, to follow through with it.

Manny, to your question, I would never tell you that you have to or should but...
if you walked into some schools that have the same policy as mine and met the qualifications of a certain level even from a different organization, you would be acknowledged accordingly. If you could not meet the qualifications, regardless of previous certification outside my organization, I would place you at a level I felt was comparable to your training at my discretion. Take it or leave it.
Once you leave any organization and try to move into another, you're taking your chances. That said, certification is only an indicator of what you accomplished within a given organization. If you're going to join that new organization, it makes sense to certify with that organization. If not...than why bother.

Could not have said it better. One thing though...
If your current org goes under or the Gm passes away, who will advance you and your senior students? My Gm passed in 1997 and many Korean GMs wanted 5k+ to promote me to 5th KKW. I went to Korea and it cost 350+ air and lodging. Of course there are other orgs besides KKW that you could be a part of. Just a thought...

 

[Master Dan]

I don't have any Kukiwon black belt certificate and don't know how this can afect my TKD carrer. My first dan black belt certificate is from JiDoKwan Veracruz, the dojang I used to learn and train tkd, my second degree black belt is form Hwarang Tae Kwon Do my actual dojang, as long as I keep with Hwarang Tae kwon Do and climbing in the dan ladder my dojang will recognized my grades and certificate but if I go out Hwarang organization maybe other dojang will not take my certificates.

How critical is this? Should I get Kukiwon dan certificate? should I have to go to Korea to do examination again? how dificult is to obtain my first and secon dan certificates form kukiwon?

Manny

If you want to do WTF sanctioned events or further educational advancements offered only by KKW and be able to give certificationto your future studens someday so they also can have these benefits you really need to start now due to time in rank requirement to advance and it just keeps getting longer.

I will help you for free if you PM me.

 

[Master Dan]

Could not have said it better. One thing though...
If your current org goes under or the Gm passes away, who will advance you and your senior students? My Gm passed in 1997 and many Korean GMs wanted 5k+ to promote me to 5th KKW. I went to Korea and it cost 350+ air and lodging. Of course there are other orgs besides KKW that you could be a part of. Just a thought...

How did you enjoy your test in Korea I am considering testing there some day. I still did not get an answer I felt they were implying you had to go there for 8th Dan I sure enjoyed the Kukkiwon and food while there last time.?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A kukkiwon certificate is handy if you want to compete in the olympics or transfer to another kukkiwon club, otherwise its just a piece of paper. The best tkdist Ive ever seen (in the flesh) is a 7th dan full time tkd instructor, runs two successful clubs, grades his own students and is highly respected by other tkdists around where he resides and yet he wouldnt even know what a kukkiwon certificate is (largely because he is computer illiterate).

 

[Manny]

My former sambonim (Ji Do Kwan) has KKW certificates, however back in 1987-88 when I wanted my KKW certificate my sambonim did arrengmentes for me and other guys but in those days something hapened and we did not get the certificates, I lost don't recall if $50.00 or $100.oo american dollars.

When I had my firsth aproach with my actual sambonim, I told him I was a 1st degree black belt from Jido Kwan but afther 15 years of been out of TKD if I need it to start againg in the white belt I will do it cause I wanted TKD just for exercise and helath. Sambonim asked me who was my former sambinim and I told him the name, he told me he knew my former sambonim and knew he is a good sambonim so I will be acpeted as a black belt first dan in the dojang. The rest is history now I am a seconde degrre black belt in my new school.

Manny

 

[troubleenuf]

Kukkiwon certification dosnt mean anything nor guarantee anything anymore. I just dropped a Kukkiwon certified 1st Dan (from another school) to Blue belt and she is struggling there. If the Kukkiwon really cared about quality they would oversee what is being taught and being certified within their organization. In 31 years I have never been questioned, observed, or contacted about any certification I have applied for. I am not required to continue my education (although I do) nor prove my expertise in any area. Its a name that used to mean something but never fulfilled that promise.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Kukkiwon certification dosnt mean anything nor guarantee anything anymore. I just dropped a Kukkiwon certified 1st Dan (from another school) to Blue belt and she is struggling there. If the Kukkiwon really cared about quality they would oversee what is being taught and being certified within their organization. In 31 years I have never been questioned, observed, or contacted about any certification I have applied for. I am not required to continue my education (although I do) nor prove my expertise in any area. Its a name that used to mean something but never fulfilled that promise.

And that is precisely why our club discontinued their association with the kukkiwon.

 

[Gemini]

Kukkiwon certification dosnt mean anything nor guarantee anything anymore. I just dropped a Kukkiwon certified 1st Dan (from another school) to Blue belt and she is struggling there. If the Kukkiwon really cared about quality they would oversee what is being taught and being certified within their organization. In 31 years I have never been questioned, observed, or contacted about any certification I have applied for. I am not required to continue my education (although I do) nor prove my expertise in any area. Its a name that used to mean something but never fulfilled that promise.

The basis of your comment has some merit, but I think you're a little extreme in that "it doesn't mean anything anymore". I have to disagree.

There will always be a certain percent of practitioners that manage to get by with sub par performance, but that's true in any art or any organization. Kukkiwon is no exception to the rule, but I don't know how you could quantify that they're percentage of sub par practitioners is any higher or lower than anyone else's. They're a huge organization, so even with the same percentage, they may seem more visible. It's inevitable, but worse? Not in my experience, no. Most of the certified practitioners I know or have known at all levels have represented well.

 

[troubleenuf]

Ah... but you hit the nail on the head. If there percentages are no higher or lower than any other organization then that would indicate that their certification has come to mean no more than any other organization.
My biggest thing is that if they were any better (or wanted to have some standard) they would have some system in place to ensure that the people they certify meet some standard. They dont do that.
By the way, I have known some outstanding TKD practitioners that never had nor need a Kukkiwon certificate.

The basis of your comment has some merit, but I think you're a little extreme in that "it doesn't mean anything anymore". I have to disagree.

There will always be a certain percent of practitioners that manage to get by with sub par performance, but that's true in any art or any organization. Kukkiwon is no exception to the rule, but I don't know how you could quantify that they're percentage of sub par practitioners is any higher or lower than anyone else's. They're a huge organization, so even with the same percentage, they may seem more visible. It's inevitable, but worse? Not in my experience, no. Most of the certified practitioners I know or have known at all levels have represented well.

 

[Master Dan]

The basis of your comment has some merit, but I think you're a little extreme in that "it doesn't mean anything anymore". I have to disagree.

There will always be a certain percent of practitioners that manage to get by with sub par performance, but that's true in any art or any organization. Kukkiwon is no exception to the rule, but I don't know how you could quantify that they're percentage of sub par practitioners is any higher or lower than anyone else's. They're a huge organization, so even with the same percentage, they may seem more visible. It's inevitable, but worse? Not in my experience, no. Most of the certified practitioners I know or have known at all levels have represented well.

Thank You I couldn't agree more. What other organization spent $1 million cash just to do research on changing a single stance? In most cases when a club or individual choose to go on thier own it is because they no longer want to have to comply with regulations or it is financial they simply wish to pocket the money and issue thier onw cert.

Yes I agree there are some terrible black belts out thier My self and others judging at state tournament wanted to hunt down the master who gave some of the students thier black belt and slap him. I have sat in on the review pannel a few years ago for 12 people testing that had next to nothing in self defense skill and it was all I and another Senior Master could do to stay in our chairs.

But lets not throw the baby out with the bath wash. KKW is still one of the largest and best organized quality standards based MA in the world. Thier testing standards are very good the fact that some choose to ingnore those standards when they recomend advancement is more related to greed and coruption in the US.

 

[dancingalone]

What other organization spent $1 million cash just to do research on changing a single stance?

That's not necessarily a good point in my book...

KKW certification is cool for those who want it. Just as is certification from ITF, ATA, etc. If being part of a org means the chance to train with and learn from some excellent martial artists, then it will be worth it. The other advertised benefits are rather overstated IMO.

 

[granfire]

Not having much trouble with orange laundry, but red is legendary, only purple Kool Aid is worse ^_^

 

[Master Dan]

That's not necessarily a good point in my book...

KKW certification is cool for those who want it. Just as is certification from ITF, ATA, etc. If being part of a org means the chance to train with and learn from some excellent martial artists, then it will be worth it. The other advertised benefits are rather overstated IMO.

I would not compare KKW with ITF OR ATA but your right on the point about opportunity to train with some exceptional people more than that Traditional Indiginous Native Art Forms are about family and the traditional values of that family one of which is to adopt members in outside of that family. So its about choice who do you want to be part of its all good base on your needs. I just take issue with those that Can't or Won't be part of anything specific kicking sand on KKW as if its the problem?

 

[Gemini]

Ah... but you hit the nail on the head. If there percentages are no higher or lower than any other organization then that would indicate that their certification has come to mean no more than any other organization.

It does if you want to circulate within the organization, which was the OP's concern. If it was regarding a different organization, then I would agree.

My biggest thing is that if they were any better (or wanted to have some standard) they would have some system in place to ensure that the people they certify meet some standard. They dont do that.

I have to disagree. They've gone to great lengths to set a standard and done it for the most part, quite successfully. Unfortunately, as with any organization, it can (and will) be circumvented to some extend.

By the way, I have known some outstanding TKD practitioners that never had nor need a Kukkiwon certificate.

As have I, but again, that's separating from Manny's concern is regarding the Kukkiwon. My reply was a direct response to a specific organization, please don't read anything more into it than that. I do not believe the sun rises and sets on the Kukkiwon or that the organization is any better than any other. Simply that if he chooses to circulate within that particular organization, certification in that particular organization would have its advantages.